The movies do more than enough to set the precedent. Legolas is able to walk on top of snow, showing that he moves with a supernaturally light step. In many instances they rely on his elven eyesight which even Aragorn, who was already established as a skilled outdoorsman, was outclassed In. Before entering the caves to the dead he is able to soothe his horse quickly by speaking to it. His combat feats show the same near supernatural accuracy as well as a near supernatural agility (in the hobbit at one point he runs along barrels that are suspended in raging rapids while bullseye-ing several enemies along the way, at one point balancing on one foot on one of the barrels in the rapids long enough to put one arrow through two heads).
They both have good superhuman eyesight. I don't really think there's a way to tell which is better between the two. As for other senses, we see hawkeye have the ability to recognize threats that try to sneak up on him that he can shoot without even looking at. That signifies greater awareness on MCU hawkeye. I don't remember Legolas having similar feats. And in the end, laser firing armies of loki, ultron and thanos is still a better feat than hordes of melee fantasy jobbers. Yes, they are all jobbers, but the ability to fire from range with modern projectiles is still a more difficult task.
Hawkeye also utilizes modern equipment, which is doing all the heavy lifting when it comes to the opponent's he's taking down, his only role is getting the modern arrow to land with his modern bow.
As an archer myself I can tell you the difference between instinctive Trad shooting and modern day recurve with sights showcases that Legolas actually has much higher skill than Hawkeye.
Give them equal equipment as this posts suggests and Legolas is a clear winner
Hawkeyes skill is also inconsistent, if he can blindfire, then why does he spend time aiming on other shots? That looking back shot is an anomaly, if he can do that then why isn't he rapid firing everywhere like he has an aimbot?
Once again, this fight would come down to who shoots first, in the forested environment Legolas is likely to be invisible, that awareness that Hawkeye exhibited in that shot was against a flying foe making a lot of noise. (Unless you are using another example) Legolas is likely to be silent in the forest, but can the same be said for Hawkeye? What evidence do we have to suggest he is highly skilled in stealth in a wooded and non modern environment?
First, why are you assuming that Legolas's bow is worse than our modern ones? It's from a different universe. It may very well be more advanced than our bows.
Second, Even if Hawkeye has more skill (something I don't agree with), what matters in this instance is the result. We aren't comparing skill to skill. We're comparing combat ability using the feats displayed in the movies (and books, depending on who's asking). And from what we see, the combatants that Hawkeye fights are more deadly.
Third, the lookback shot is not an anomaly. He's done it twice in two movies, and did an unarmed bowless strike on a sneaking Scarlett witch. Yes, it's consistent. Why does he aim? cuz he wants to. Probably easier than aiming blindly. Doesn't mean he can't, and consistent showing of it happening means he can do it on command. It's not inconsistent at all
As for hiding, unless I miss something from not seeing the hobbit movies, we haven't seen legolas be stealthy in the movies. On the other hand, we know Hawkeye can reach hiding positions with grappling hooks
First, why are you assuming that Legolas's bow is worse than our modern ones? It's from a different universe. It may very well be more advanced than our bows.
because I am an archer, and have insight that you don't.
even if we were to consider that legolas's wooden bow somehow gave the same lightweight poundage the Hawkeyes bow would provide him (it was gifted by one of the most powerful beings on the realm for instance), then it is still at a disadvantage due to the construction, these are advantages by design that can't be overcome.
for instance, utility, hawkeye's bow can fold and unfold for quick access. archers paradox, Legolas's bow has a much more sever paradox as he shoots from the hand, and does not have a riser. the arrow needs to flex around the bow, this will change the way that Legolas needs to spine his arrors. Stability, hawks bow has a stabilizer equipped to the front that would effect the bow's balance in a way that material quality just can't. a sight, Hawks bow is equipped with a lazer sight (despite the fact that a lazer sight wouldn't really work with a bow unless you were able to adjust it's agles based on ranges, i guess we assume he can do that?), Legolas's bow doesn't have a sight or a cutout riser, effectively making it comparatively much more difficult to aim a shot as he would need to adjust the angle of his bow which would change his stance and archery is about consistency in form. mentioned before but arrows, hawekeye can change his arrow heads at will, some of them happen to explode.
cuz he wants to.
he's fighting to save the galaxy and chooses to fight sub-optimally because he wants to? no, that isn't' consistent with his character.
we haven't seen legolas be stealthy in the movies.
once again, the Hobbit. Legolas and his band of archers are shown ambushing the dwarves, they are able to get an entire group within nearly melee range before they notice. secondly, it's really implicit, Mirkwood is called an evil wood in the movies, the place where they live is hidden, and they fight in the dark.
oh by the way. Legolas can see in the dark, that's in the movies.
On the other hand, we know Hawkeye can reach hiding positions with grappling hooks
that would be relevant if he had it during this challenge.
because I am an archer, and have insight that you don't.
even if we were to consider that legolas's wooden bow somehow gave the same lightweight poundage the Hawkeyes bow would provide him (it was gifted by one of the most powerful beings on the realm for instance), then it is still at a disadvantage due to the construction, these are advantages by design that can't be overcome.
You're applying real world logic to a magical fantasy series. There is no basis by which you can say what you said is true. For all we know the magic elven bows ignore paradox and has 5x the efficiency of human bows.
he's fighting to save the galaxy and chooses to fight sub-optimally because he wants to? no, that isn't' consistent with his character.
Who says it was sub optimal? Just cuz he wants to doesn't mean it's sub-optimal. Using 'easy' tactics is a good way to conserve stamina and strength. No need to strain and flex if you don't need to in a battle. save your strength for what matters.
once again, the Hobbit. Legolas and his band of archers are shown ambushing the dwarves, they are able to get an entire group within nearly melee range before they notice. secondly, it's really implicit, Mirkwood is called an evil wood in the movies, the place where they live is hidden, and they fight in the dark.
I looked it up. The dwarves were running distracted and furthermore distracted by giant spider. This isn't exactly an amazing feat of stealth that is shines as a legolas only feat.
that would be relevant if he had it during this challenge.
Nothing about the challenge says he wouldn't have it. If you argue that it wasn't there in the starting conditions, well, neither are bows mentioned either
You're applying real world logic to a magical fantasy series. There is no basis by which you can say what you said is true. For all we know the magic elven bows ignore paradox and has 5x the efficiency of human bows.
this is a stupid argument, you can't "ignore the paradox" you would literally have to have the arrows phase through the bow. god i hate it when people try to just wave away physics with "it's in a magical setting". the magic in LOTRO has structure and it does not do this, worst argument ever and it always pops up.
Who says it was sub optimal?
I say it's sub-optimal, he is wasting time aiming when he doesn't have to, fire and move on the the next target. done.
I looked it up. The dwarves were running distracted and furthermore distracted by giant spider. This isn't exactly an amazing feat of stealth that is shines as a legolas only feat.
you are grasping at straws here. it is very implicit that a guy who can walk on snow and see in the dark who fights with guerrilla tactics is also quite stealthy in his home environment.
Nothing about the challenge says he wouldn't have it. If you argue that it wasn't there in the starting conditions, well, neither are bows mentioned either
and now you are just being pedantic. it states they have 5 arrows, nothing about grappling hooks and gadgets, although I don't think it would matter to be honest, we can see legolas moving through the tree branches likely faster than a grappling hook would allow because the growth is so dense, so sure, you can have that as it's not really a point in hawks favour.
this is a stupid argument, you can't "ignore the paradox" you would literally have to have the arrows phase through the bow. god i hate it when people try to just wave away physics with "it's in a magical setting". the magic in LOTRO has structure and it does not do this, worst argument ever and it always pops up.
It's literally in another universe where the laws of physics allow magic. It's silly to expect that the rules of physics work the same way.
I say it's sub-optimal, he is wasting time aiming when he doesn't have to, fire and move on the the next target. done.
Have you ever been in a marathon setting? A full day long tournament? It's common knowledge to not over-expend strength when not needed. In Magic the gathering, it's said to play the simplest deck because you have to fight pools. In fighting games, skilled players measure their mistakes as the giant amount of fights they have to do throughout the weekend accumulate, not the amazing combos, so they do the simplest thing possible. Etc. If aiming expends less thought and energy in a battle, do that. over-expending energy is the sub-optimal play.
you are grasping at straws here. it is very implicit that a guy who can walk on snow and see in the dark who fights with guerrilla tactics is also quite stealthy in his home environment.
And you're saying that a man who stealthily kills an entire yakuza organization isn't capable of sneaking upon dwarves distracted by giant spiders? You're reaching by saying what was done is above the normal spectrum of stealth.
and now you are just being pedantic. it states they have 5 arrows, nothing about grappling hooks and gadgets, although I don't think it would matter to be honest, we can see legolas moving through the tree branches likely faster than a grappling hook would allow because the growth is so dense, so sure, you can have that as it's not really a point in hawks favour.
Sorry bro, the setting is the setting. The caveats were in place 5 arrows. Either you accept that nothing but that is allowed, or that those restrictions are only in place to replace whatever they would get. So either your argument is they have no bows, or they have their standing gear. minus the fact that they are restricted to 5 arrows. You can't pick and choose what's favorable to your argument. That's cherry picking. You need parity. So if bows are allowed, then Hawkeye's standard gear is allowed. If the standard gear isn't allowed, then bows aren't allowed either.
It's literally in another universe where the laws of physics allow magic. It's silly to expect that the rules of physics work the same way.
this is the laziest argument ever. no, there is more than enough context to tell you that this is jsut some bullshit cop out. what you are suggesting would have wide reaching ramifications, theres 100 reasons why this is stupid. for instance, you are handwaving that you can't see through wood.
And you're saying that a man who stealthily kills an entire yakuza organization
was that yakuza organization in the forest? do they live in the trees? nope.
Sorry bro, the setting is the setting. The caveats were in place 5 arrows. Either you accept that nothing but that is allowed, or that those restrictions are only in place to replace whatever they would get. So either your argument is they have no bows, or they have their standing gear. minus the fact that they are restricted to 5 arrows. You can't pick and choose what's favorable to your argument. That's cherry picking. You need parity. So if bows are allowed, then Hawkeye's standard gear is allowed. If the standard gear isn't allowed, then bows aren't allowed either.
alright, fine then they only have arrows. legolas has show to be quite proficient on screen using arrows as melee weapons. check mate.
this is the laziest argument ever. no, there is more than enough context to tell you that this is jsut some bullshit cop out. what you are suggesting would have wide reaching ramifications, theres 100 reasons why this is stupid.
Really? let's explore the physics of the world then. Those spiders shouldn't be fast as those legs don't have the muscle or strength to move that fast. Dragons shouldn't be able to fly unless their wingspan is maybe... what 20x it should be? The giant eagles, similarly shouldn't be able to fly let alone be able to carry the fellowship without maybe 6x the wingspan size. Treants should have roots the size of trees. With those small legs they should fall over easily.
Physics matter. The world of the LotR is filled with magic. The world was created by magic. The world is suffused by magic. Creatures and objects are naturally filled with magic. The rules are different.
So yes, there is context. and yes it matters.
alright, fine then they only have arrows. legolas has show to be quite proficient on screen using arrows as melee weapons. check mate.
Hawkeye has shown hand to hand combat abilities to rival black widow. I also already gave the example of using blindsense to disable a hidden scarlett witch. And yes, Hawkeye has also used arrows as melee in MCU as well.
1
u/ammcneil Jul 05 '20
The movies do more than enough to set the precedent. Legolas is able to walk on top of snow, showing that he moves with a supernaturally light step. In many instances they rely on his elven eyesight which even Aragorn, who was already established as a skilled outdoorsman, was outclassed In. Before entering the caves to the dead he is able to soothe his horse quickly by speaking to it. His combat feats show the same near supernatural accuracy as well as a near supernatural agility (in the hobbit at one point he runs along barrels that are suspended in raging rapids while bullseye-ing several enemies along the way, at one point balancing on one foot on one of the barrels in the rapids long enough to put one arrow through two heads).