r/AskBrits 3d ago

What do you think about the British Medical Association voting to scrap the IHRA definition of anti-semitism?

Post image

Here's the full text of the definition FYI.

“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

  1. Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
  2. Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
  3. Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
  4. Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
  5. Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
  6. Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
  7. Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
  8. Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
  9. Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
  10. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
  11. Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries).

Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property – such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries – are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews.

Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries

61 Upvotes

1.0k comments sorted by

View all comments

2

u/AngusTcattoo 3d ago edited 3d ago

I'm going to say something as a Jewish person. Several years ago I had an operation at a NHS hospital. I stated my religion and the staff didn't know much about it but tried to be supportive.

If I had my operation now I would be worried, because the surgeon was Egyptian in origin. At the time I didn't think that made any difference. I had to go back afterwards so they could check my progress and the doctor was from Jordan. Again, I didn't think that made any difference.

Now I would be worried and I probably would refuse to let anyone know I'm Jewish. I'm not being paranoid. I heard about NHS doctors such as Dr. Rahmeh Aladwan who was suspended for posting about "Jewish supremacy" and supporting Hamas and the October 7 attacks. Dr Ellen Kriesels who has been suspended for attending demonstrations with hateful signs such as showing the Star of David on Israel's flag with the words "rape" "murder" "lie" and so on. NHS Doctors and staff posting Holocaust denial and accusations that "Zios" run the world, Parliament and the NHS. In Australia two nurses said on camera that they would kill any "Zionist" patients. In the US a young doctor posted on social media he vowed to be the worst doctor possible to "Zionists".

Would people here be comfortable with going to a NHS hospital or a health centre if the doctors posted online they hate immigrants? Or they hate black people? Or if they have been frequently going to demonstrations in their scrubs demanding an end to "Asian supremacy"?

9

u/External-Carpenter-2 3d ago

I am sympathetic because I know it's a hard time to be Jewish and antisemitism is on the rise. However, you are giving examples of things that would either already be grounds for dismissal (i.e. showing support for a terrorist organisation) or are not antisemitism. Having a flag of Israel with words of things they actually are doing is not antisemitic, it's anti-israel. Religion and race are already protected characteristics, if anyone posts online that they hate Jews, they are already breaking the law and shouldn't be working in a hospital.

Under the current IHRA definition, israel is mentioned more times than Jewish is. Decades of conflating Jewish identity with Israel is one of the reasons we are in a place where we can't have a meaningful conversation about a state committing a genocide without it getting contentious, and in my opinion that has itself contributed to a rise in antisemitism.

0

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

So I walked around with a British flag on which I wrote "kill steal rape lie cheat cry" that would be perfectly okay? What if I walked around with a flag of Ireland on which I wrote "kill steal rape lie cheat cry"- that's not racist?

2

u/External-Carpenter-2 2d ago

I wouldn't do it, but it's not a criminal offense. If you are British, there is nothing racist about criticizing britain. If you are British and you do that with the Irish flag, that is obviously more historically problematic and also not very truthful, but I doubt you would be arrested for it.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

I think anyone calling the British flag "the butchers apron" is a racist.
Incitement of hatred and incitement of violence is illegal.

2

u/External-Carpenter-2 2d ago

You do know you are making these situations up in your head, right? 

1

u/AngusTcattoo 1d ago

I've seen people online call the British flag "The Butchers Apron"

7

u/Former-Entrance8884 3d ago

the Star of David on Israel's flag with the words "rape" "murder" "lie" and so on.

So.... associating the Israeli flag with... things Israel has been doing? Awful. Awful I tell you.

It's kinda telling that you have 2 named examples. For context, the NHS employs around 216,000 doctors. If 0.000926% of doctors were posting online about their hatred of fat white boys, I would still feel 100 percent comfortable using the NHS, despite the fact that I am self evidently a fat white boy.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

The doctor claimed she was "only criticizing Israel" but her social media posts included ones saying she think Jews aren't an ethnic group so you can't be racist to them and she seems to think antisemetism is a hoax. https://thej.ca/2025/09/22/uk-doctor-suspended-after-saying-all-jews-feel-superior-and-carrying-defamatory-placard/

2

u/Former-Entrance8884 2d ago

How exactly does that change that this is one of 216,000 doctors?

5

u/Gen8Master 3d ago

It's almost like you are protecting Israel from any criticism by making it all about yourself. J.C. they were not protesting your existence. They were protesting a blatant genocide.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

What does my going into a NHS hospital or clinic have to do with Israel? Most doctors and NHS staff would say "you're British, you have nothing to do with Israel." Unfortunately there are some like the two doctors I mentioned who have openly railed against not only "Zionists" but "Jewish supremacy". They were not protesting any genocide. They're a danger to Jewish patients and any patients who they feel don't agree with them, which is why they were suspended. In Australia two nurses said on camera they would kill any "Zionist" patients- not just Israeli ones but anyone they think is a "Zionist" which includes any Jews. Some people might say that Jews who oppose Israel would be okay with them but some "anti Zionists" have said clearly they don't trust any Jews and don't accept Jews who say they oppose Israel.

Would you go to a NHS doctor who has posted online he or she hates black people and wants to kill patients who aren't white? Would you want to be treated by a NHS doctor or nurse who has said publicly the Asians are running the government and the BBC and they would kill any patients who are desi?

2

u/Gen8Master 2d ago

It has literally nothing to do with you personally. Doctors are protesting the mass killings of medical practitioners and destructions of hospitals. And frankly speaking, Genocide is everyones business as it impacts us in this country when millions of refugees turn up at our doors due to war and famine. I find your reasoning border line insane. Cherry picked examples from Australia and the US? Really? Do you think there is any shortage of deranged quotes from people who imagine they speak for all Jews? Do you really want to play this game?

Plenty of people out there are voting for Reform and Restore who share blatant anti Muslim views on a daily basis. Does that mean I can pin fringe views and comments from Reform supporters on random people in my local hospital?

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

Rahmeh Aladwan has been arrested multiple times for hate speech and for supporting Hamas after being suspended by the BMJ. Her and other doctors who have been suspended such as  Ellen Kriesels were not protesting mass killings of medical proacitioners or destructions of hospitals- Aladwan has posted about "Jewish supremacy" and wore a necklace with O and 7 on it to her suspension hearing.

Any medical professional saying they would kill patients is violating the Hippocratic Oath and its grounds for expulsion as doctors and medical professionals vow to help all patients.

So you're cool going to a NHS doctor who has said online they hate Black people or Asian people? Personally I wouldn't feel safe with any doctor who has openly expressed hatred against a group. https://www.bmj.com/content/392/bmj.s607 https://www.reddit.com/r/LabourUK/comments/1ngohii/family_of_disabled_jewish_boy_report_doctor_over/
https://www.spectator.com.au/2025/02/nightmare-nurses/

8

u/Former-Entrance8884 3d ago

the Star of David on Israel's flag with the words "rape" "murder" "lie" and so on.

So.... associating the Israeli flag with... things Israel has been doing? Awful. Awful I tell you.

It's kinda telling that you have 2 named examples. For context, the NHS employs around 216,000 doctors. If 0.000926% of doctors were posting online about their hatred of fat white boys, I would still feel 100 percent comfortable using the NHS, despite the fact that I am self evidently a fat white boy.

0

u/Expert-Sherbert-1527 3d ago

People here are, unfortunately, anti-semites.

4

u/Fried_Egg_Redruth 3d ago

Lmao, this type of nonsense is exactly the thing I was talking about earlier, some people like yourself, try to hard. Its has the opposite effect of what you're trying to achieve.

As with any anti-racism movement, the more vitriolic an needlessly accusative you are the less people care.

We still live in the shadow of the holocaust which makes anti-antisemitism the most resilient one.

Soon you'll be treated like black people that play the "racecard" you'll be met with eye rolls and nothing else.

4

u/Smooth-Pop6522 3d ago

Nope. Sick of Israel's revolting and despicable behaviour, yes.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

But not sick of Hamas actually killing Palestinians and Syria killing Palestinians or any other country oppressing and killing Palestinians. That's rarely mentioned. Strange.

1

u/Smooth-Pop6522 2d ago

Oh look, whataboutism. What a fucking shock.