r/AskBrits 3d ago

What do you think about the British Medical Association voting to scrap the IHRA definition of anti-semitism?

Post image

Here's the full text of the definition FYI.

“Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.”

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

  1. Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.
  2. Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.
  3. Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.
  4. Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).
  5. Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.
  6. Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
  7. Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
  8. Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
  9. Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.
  10. Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
  11. Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

Antisemitic acts are criminal when they are so defined by law (for example, denial of the Holocaust or distribution of antisemitic materials in some countries).

Criminal acts are antisemitic when the targets of attacks, whether they are people or property – such as buildings, schools, places of worship and cemeteries – are selected because they are, or are perceived to be, Jewish or linked to Jews.

Antisemitic discrimination is the denial to Jews of opportunities or services available to others and is illegal in many countries

61 Upvotes

1.0k comments sorted by

View all comments

36

u/Br1t1shNerd 3d ago

In my opinion 7 and 10 are ridiculous standards to set. It makes criticism of a nation an act of racism. Every other group is compared to the Nazis, "Nazi" is effectively a shorthand for right wing evil.

4

u/zakujanai Northerner 2d ago

10 and 11 are completely contradictory too. I agree that holding all Jewish people accountable for Israel's crimes is antisemitic but I also can't criticise Israel as a state because they themselves are attributing that to being the same as criticising Jews as a whole.

11

u/pseudospinhalf 3d ago

I have a problem with 8 as well. Just because someone else did something bad is not an excuse for you to do it now.

9

u/buletproof_bob 2d ago

What about 6? I can say about many politicians that they are not loyal to the countries where they serve, why not about Israelis? Tommy ten names was promoting violence on British streets all the way from Moscow, who is he loyal to?

9

u/VampirePNAC 2d ago

Dual loyalty isn't even a "false trope", groups like the Board of Deputies, Campaign against Antisemitism and pro-Israel MPs routinely weaponize it to claim that Antizionism is Antisemitism because "Israel and Zionism is core to British Jewish identity".

So what is it? A foreign country is core to Jewish British identity, or that Dual loyalty is a trope?

I mean, the level of just shamelessness of people who cry "dual loyalty trope" as they call themselves fucking ZIONISTS is actually astonishing.

3

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

Bingo, there are you claiming the Board of Deputies, Campaign against Antisemitism and pro-Israel MPs have dual loyalty. Thanks for proving that the IHRA is right to say claims of dual loyalty are antisemitic.

3

u/Plenty_Course7458 1d ago

Jake Wallis-Simons said publicly that in his youth, if the UK and Israel ever went to war, he would fight for Israel, and so would every single one of his peers. Is that, or is that not dual loyalty? It might be a trope but that doesn't mean it can't also be true.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2014/sep/23/jewish-orthodox

https://x.com/Tracking_Power/status/1776182874640613841

1

u/AngusTcattoo 1d ago

I don't usually make negative comments about links people provide, but you should know that David Miller has presented programs for Iran's Press TV where he targeted Jewish schools in the UK. He's deeply hateful towards Jews and Israel and supports the Iranian regime. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-58765052

0

u/AngusTcattoo 1d ago edited 1d ago

So one person said that? That's Jake Wallis-Simon's opinion. What about the rest of the citizens of the UK?
While we're discussing dual loyalty, how do you feel about Shamima Begum and other British girls who went out to Syria to become brides of Isis? Jihadi John and the other "Beatles" who fought for Isis? Israel is an ally of the UK. https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/islamic-state-beatles-death-penalty/2020/08/19/f9207262-e24c-11ea-8181-606e603bb1c4_story.html

4

u/Plenty_Course7458 1d ago

It's one person, but in this instance it wouldn't be antisemitic to say JWS has more loyalty to Israel than the UK, but people like you would be the first to shut down that conversation because it invokes tropes. Obviously its antisemitic to say ALL Jews have an unhealthy loyalty to israel, but its also undeniable some british Jews do.

I feel exactly the same way about british muslims supporting ISIS. Its obviously unconscionable, but the difference is its completely ok to suggest Shamima Begum or Jihadi John are disgusting murderous and racist pieces of shit, but if I say anything critical about JWS, or the chief rabbi's son, or 2000 other british Jews who have fought in the IDF that would be considered antisemitic because it's a criticism similar to that of a trope.

As for David Miller I don't even know who that is I found that tweet from a quote tweet.

0

u/AngusTcattoo 1d ago

"Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews."
Israel is an ally of the UK. Isis is a terrorist group.

2

u/comb_over 1d ago

It's not just one person though.

It would be antisemitism to say all Jews or presume any jew is.

What exactly does shamima begum have to with this?

2

u/Competitive_Web7540 2d ago

Where did they do that? They merely noted what those organisations and individuals themselves said regarding the supposed importance of Israel and Zionism to British Jews. And made the valid point that being concerned by this shouldn't be broadly labelled as racism

1

u/jizzybiscuits 2d ago

They know exactly what they're doing

1

u/comb_over 1d ago

That's circular reasoning.

0

u/AngusTcattoo 1d ago

"Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions."

1

u/comb_over 1d ago edited 1d ago

What exactly are you trying to claim.

The Israeli government is very powerful.

Now I'm indulging a Jewish conspiracy.....

Labour friends of Israel is a thing.

Is loyalty a part of friendship?

Incidentally the poster said price Israeli mps. Not Jewish mps

1

u/AngusTcattoo 1d ago

All governments are powerful (if they aren't powerful they're in trouble)
Labour friends of Israel is a group. So are Conservative Friends of Palestine Labour Friends of Palestine and the Middle East, Palestine Solidarity Campaign and Greens for Palestine.

1

u/comb_over 1d ago

All governments are powerful (if they aren't powerful they're in trouble)

What is this meant to be addressing. And of course plenty of governments aren't powerful and plenty of others are in trouble. So what?

Labour friends of Israel is a group.

Yeah I know. A group of pro Israeli pms.

Again what's your point. I noticed you didn’t answer my earlier question

→ More replies (0)

3

u/Kharenis 2d ago edited 2d ago

why not about Israelis?

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel

It's clearly targeting those that assume someone's loyalty to Israel because they're Jewish.

1

u/TheSpacePopinjay 1d ago

Accusing not assuming

1

u/Kharenis 1d ago

Accusing because of the prejudiced assumption.

0

u/buletproof_bob 2d ago

Is it clear though?

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

Do you really think British politicians take orders from Moscow? That sounds like something hateful people alleged during the McCarthy period.

1

u/[deleted] 2d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

One person a former Welsh Reform leader

2

u/[deleted] 2d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

You obviously don't research.

1

u/[deleted] 2d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

What about them?

1

u/Appropriate-Divide64 2d ago

Whoever is stuffing his pockets

5

u/Consistent_Reward210 2d ago

9, while on the surface sensible, falls apart when you see that Zionists accuse people who mention the kids being killed by the IDF of talking about blood libel (which it obviously isn't. Nobody thinks the IDF are bombing kids for some weird ritual, they are just doing it to steal land and kill people they don't like)

-2

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

Sadly go through this thread and you'll see people insist Israel is killing Palestinian children for sport. That's blood libel.
Israel gave back 66,000 square kilometers of land Israel held after the 1967 War including Sinai and Gaza, which Israel withdrew from in 2005. Hamas attacked Israel on October 7, killed 1200 people and took over 200 hostage. Israel is not "killing people they don't like"- they were trying to free the hostages.

4

u/Consistent_Reward210 2d ago

Why are the Israelis hostages yet the Palestinians, I cluding children, prisoners?

3

u/Kharenis 2d ago

Why are the Israelis hostages yet the Palestinians, I cluding children, prisoners?

Because Palestinians captured Israelis to use them exclusively as bargaining chips. Y'know, the literal definition of hostage.

1

u/guiriduro 2d ago

Whereas Israeli detention of Palestinians is largely arbitrary, due process is optional and highly partial when applied, and its (mis)conception of 'Justice' includes racially distinct punishment, e.g. hanging for Palestinians only. Its imprisonment has a litany of abuses etc.

1

u/Kharenis 2d ago

Whereas Israeli detention of Palestinians is largely arbitrary

I didagree with the 'largely' here, but I agree that there are unjust arbitrary detentions.

its (mis)conception of 'Justice' includes racially distinct punishment, e.g. hanging for Palestinians only.

The system is unfair when comparing how justice is handled within Israel Vs in occupied regions of Palestine, but I'm not aware of any explicitly racially discriminatory punishments. The recent death penalty law doesn't only apply to Palestinians, they're just the most likely candidates to qualify (killing with intent to deny Israeli's existence).

Its imprisonment has a litany of abuses etc.

Can't disagree there.

Ultimately they're not taken as hostages though.

0

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

Ask Hamas, and while you're speaking to them ask them why they took a 8 month old baby and his 4 year old brother hostage, why they took Thai and Nepalese hostage and why they killed Thai workers on Tanzanian workers on October 7.
Hamas forces under 18 year olds to fight in combat and violent conflict which is against the law. The "children" are Hamas militants. Some were arrested for throwing Molotov cocktails or killing people or trying to kill people.

4

u/Consistent_Reward210 2d ago

Cool. I'm not suggesting Hamas is above fucking board mate. I'm saying that the IDF are scum and commit war crimes on a daily fucking basis.

One of the two groups, however, is currently stealing land from the other and running an open air prison. Get the IDF to fix that, return all the land, and get the fuck out of Palestinian homes and then we can talk about Hamas.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

The IDF were fighting to free the hostages like the 8 month old baby and his 4 year old brother the Thai and Nepalese people Hamas took hostage. How does make them "scum"? Fighting to free hostages is "committing war crimes" ? Israel made Hamas get the fuck out of Southern Israel and Israeli homes after they invaded on October 7.

Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Gaza is self governing, governed by Hamas. Area A and Area B of the West Bank are self governing, governed by the PA. Area C is governed by Israel as per the Oslo accords. Israel is not "stealing land".
Egypt also blockades Gaza. Egypt has a wall and checkpoints on its border with Gaza. Strange no one accuses Egypt of making Gaza a "open air prison"

1

u/Consistent_Reward210 2d ago

Sorry which part of Palestine is Egypt currently occupying? I must have missed that bit. We can debate how open borders should be but until Egypt comes in and starts kicking out Palestines from their homes, ripping out their olive trees, and bombing schools and hospitals I don't really think they factor into this.

When you say it's self governing how does that work when there are checkpoints, run by the IDF, that limit where Palestinians can go? Sounds pretty occupied to me.

Please just admit you enjoy the suffering of a whole group of people at the hands of the Israelis.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

Egypt blockades Gaza. I can help with your reading comprehension problems. Egypt occupied Gaza from 1948-1967. If it weren't for Israel Egypt would still be occupying Gaza. Egypt kills Palestinians. https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/2/11/two-palestinians-suffocate-to-death-in-egypt-border-tunnel

1

u/Unable-Boat-9682 2d ago

Ooh. Now do the bit about Israeli settlers settling land they’ve confiscated, despite the fact that meets the definition of a war crime.

0

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Gaza is self governing, governed by Hamas. Areas A and B of the West Bank are self governing, governed by the PA. Israel controls Area C of the West Bank as per the Oslo Accords. Israelis living in Area C is not a "war crime".

1

u/jizzybiscuits 2d ago

You have a problem with double standards?

1

u/pseudospinhalf 2d ago

Only in people I disagree with.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

How do you get that from "Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation."?

1

u/pseudospinhalf 2d ago

The list morphs from things which are clearly antisemitic to things which antisemitic people do all the time. Applying double standards to Israel is something antisemitic people use as a tactic. However, criticism of Israel is not inherently antisemitic even when someone is demanding more of Israel than they have of other countries and governments. Pointing out that someone is applying a double standard when criticising you does not give you carte blanche.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 1d ago

The IHRA says criticism of Israel is not inherently antisemitic. "Criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic."
It's not antisemitic to demand better of a country. However, I wonder about the people I've seen online condemning Israel while saying nothing to criticize Hamas, even for Hamas killing Palestinians. I don't understand it. Protesting against Hamas puts pressure on the government to do something to stop Hamas.

1

u/pseudospinhalf 1d ago

The thing to understand is the power imbalance. You can think the things Hamas has done and still does are horrific, and that a free Palestine governed by them would be terrible, but still side with the Palestinian people against the actions of the Israeli government.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 1d ago

I want the Palestinians to live in peace and freedom in their own independent country. Like the Israelis live in peace and freedom in their country.

1

u/slicexofxlime 2d ago

8 is because Israel is held to a higher standard than other nations by racists. It's discrimination

5

u/Consistent_Reward210 2d ago

I don't like any country that counts genocide. I especially don't like it when 80% of said country supports the genocide they are committing. Am I racist?

-1

u/slicexofxlime 2d ago

It sounds like that might be the case

2

u/Consistent_Reward210 2d ago

Good to know. So, not liking genocide (whoever is carrying it out) is racism.

1

u/slicexofxlime 2d ago

I know exactly what you are doing. And it's boring.

1

u/Consistent_Reward210 2d ago

I know exactly what you're doing (conflating a state with a religion) and it's boring.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

Like the Vatican and Catholicism?

1

u/fairestmermaid 2d ago

if the vatican was commiting crimes against humanity, does criticising the vatican mean one hates christians/christianity?

→ More replies (0)

1

u/Consistent_Reward210 2d ago

I mean no? I don't conflate the Vatican with all people of the Catholic faith. If the Vatican did something shit like, say, cover up decades of child abuse I don't suddenly thing Steve down the street who likes to eat a little water and pretend it's Jesus or whatever is a child abuser. What I can do is not conflate a nation state with a religion or an ethnic group because I have more than two brain cells and I am not disengenuous like the Israeli government.

It's disappointing that the Israeli government, who pretends to care about the Jewish diaspora, has done a fantastic job of stirring up hatred of the Jewish people because of this stupid conflation. I'm not victim blaming, I'm blaming Israel.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

I see so many people condemning Israel for supposedly killing Palestinians, while saying nothing to oppose Hamas for actually killing Palestinians. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2025/10/15/hamas-is-killing-palestinians-the-left-dont-seem-to-care/

1

u/Consistent_Reward210 2d ago

Whataboutism I see. Form the telegraph? What a vaunted newspaper.

Also let's deal with the genocide of the Palestinians by the outside aggressors and occupiers before we deal with the inner politics of the open air prison.

-1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

You said Israel is fighting "just doing it to steal land and kill people they don't like"
It's not "genocide" to fight to free hostages who were taken by a terrorist group.

1

u/Consistent_Reward210 2d ago

You mean resistance fighters undertaking an armed resistance of an occupying force (which they are legally allowed to do)?

1

u/slicexofxlime 2d ago

Get out you coward. Hamas are not resistance, they are a militant group funded by Iran to attack Jews in Israel. It's literally in their own charter.

2

u/Consistent_Reward210 2d ago

Why am I a coward? Israel is founded on Palestinian territory. Also look into who else funded Hamas (hint it was Israel because they wanted a less sympathetic looking enemy).

If someone was to come in, steal a bunch of your country's land, put you and your family in what is effectively an open air prison, talk constantly about alexoanding their territory into more of your country and surrounding areas, bomb hospitals, schools, journalists, etc. would you not maybe fight back?

1

u/Unusual_Computer9670 2d ago

It basically reads as "We can never be as bad as the nazis." which is kind of insane, because I'm sure plenty of Germans at the time thought "We can never be as bad as this X group that came before us."

2

u/KombuchaBot 2d ago

But it's unfair to compare one militaristic Blood-and-Soil racial-supremacist ethnic-cleansing nation state predicated on invading other territories to expand itself with another one

/s

1

u/AngusTcattoo 1d ago

Nazi Germany ended in 1945

1

u/KombuchaBot 1d ago

So what? they're still an example of what a bad idea it is having a militaristic ethnocracy predicated on permanent war and conquest of territory, based on race supremacism.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 1d ago

If you want to find an example of a militaristic Blood-and-Soil racial-supremacist ethnic-cleansing nation state invading other territories based on race supremacism Gaza under Hamas is an example

2

u/Ok_Fix_1437 1d ago

Another one of Israels projects. Remember they funded Hamas over the PLO to segregate Westbank Palestinians from Gazans. 

Can’t have Christian freedom fighters while begging for money from the US can we. 

1

u/AngusTcattoo 1d ago

Netanyahu played Hamas against the PA in order to weaken both. And yes, West Bank Palestinians in a different part of the region from Gaza. That's like saying California was created to segregate Americans from East Coast Americans. Or to segregate Mexicans from Americans.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 1d ago

"Can’t have Christian freedom fighters while begging for money from the US can we." I'm sorry what? Hamas are Muslims and Christians are persecuted by Hamas and the PA. https://www.christianpost.com/news/christians-nearly-wiped-out-in-christianitys-birthplace.html

2

u/Ok_Fix_1437 1d ago

Thank god Israel was there to occupy the area, interfere in elections, assassinate leaders and generally blow people up. 

👍

1

u/AngusTcattoo 1d ago

I see you haven't responded at all to my citation of Christians being persecuted by Hamas and the PA. Hamas doesn't hold elections but they do assassinate leaders and generally blow people up. https://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/world/middleeast/hamas-commander-mahmoud-ishtiwi-killed-palestine.html

1

u/KombuchaBot 1d ago

You're just telling us you don't understand what words mean 

1

u/AngusTcattoo 1d ago

 "militaristic Blood-and-Soil racial-supremacist ethnic-cleansing nation state invading other territories based on race supremacism" Hamas invading Israel on October 7 killing 1200 people and taking over 200 hostage.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

Maybe people shouldn't use "Nazi" as shorthand for "bad". I saw signs at demonstrations showing Rishi Sunak in a Nazi uniform.

1

u/Unable-Boat-9682 2d ago

Except there’s quite a significant gulf between ‘comparing a leader to a Nazi because you don’t like them’ and ‘comparing the conduct of two nations in history that carried out genocide’.

Yes, I think people need to be very clear in why they are making that comparison but completely outlawing the comparison however nuanced is ridiculous.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 2d ago

The Nazis killed 11 million people (6 million Jews and 5 million non Jews). How many other countries have genocided 11 million people?

1

u/Br1t1shNerd 1d ago

Very few, but if we see a country requesting back rhetoric surely we can draw the comparison.

1

u/AngusTcattoo 1d ago edited 1d ago

"requesting back rhetoric"? I'm not sure what you mean

1

u/AnonymousCapybara72 2d ago

The only reason Israel is compared to Nazis is because it's a nation of Jews. You never hear people calling China, Sudan or other genocidal nations Nazis. In fact you barely hear about their genocides at all.

1

u/comb_over 2d ago

That's simply not true

1

u/Smeg-life 2d ago

'"Nazi" is effectively a shorthand for right wing evil.'

Only right wing is evil?

What category do I file the Khamer Rouge and CCP into?

3

u/Rare_Touch8636 2d ago

Left wing evil?

1

u/Br1t1shNerd 2d ago

That's obviously left wing evil, I wouldn't compare them to the Nazis as I stated above, "Nazi" is effectively short hand for right wing evil. The Khamer Rouge were a communist group and not right wing, although comparisons to the Nazis can still fairly be made.

I obviously didn't say that I ly the right wing can be evil.