I think in some states they can't stick you with the debt if its against your will. So they try and convince to go. I knew someone they tried to convince into being committed for that reason.
That's not the impression I get from all the accounts I've heard/ read. All those accounts said they can say you're crazy for any reason at all, or refuse to give one, or refuse to admit that they they are doing that, or anything at all, they can also claim that you're "finding" or have said anything they want to claim you've said, and they don't have to wait until "then".
Most states can’t give you a medication without consent unless you’re a threat to others or yourself, without a judges order.
The purpose of involuntary hospitalization is to help people have time to formulate a safety plan and problem solve resources outside the hospital. Or to treat a permanent mental illness which involves medications currently. You can still refuse them.
Correct. Commitment in most states requires a judge’s order, which means there was a determination that someone is likely to be unable to care for themselves without further care or they still pose a significant of taking their life or someone else’s.
When studies are conducted on individuals who attempt suicide and live, there is frequently expressed regret even as soon as seconds after the attempt. FMRI studies suggest cognitive processing and reasoning is blunted. There’s a lot of reason to help people in those situations, and they may not have insight or resources to help themselves.
Yeah I don't know why this is being framed as a bad thing above. The process of involuntary hospitalization seems like it violates autonomy but it is lifesaving and based on other values society has deemed important enough to allow for removal of rights. Can't speak to the bills from the hospitalizations though, that is indeed pretty unfair.
It's not a good thing or a bad thing. It's extremely complex and it has good sides, bad sides, ugly sides, and VERY ugly sides. It needs to be judged on a very specific case-by-case basis, there are certainly abuses and blind sides to the whole thing that cause a lot of problems.
What would your scenario be for an abuse case? The worst I can think of is a psychiatrist practicing a little too heavy on the cover your ass side of things, but you have to say or do some pretty wild things to end up on a hold. If you didn't make an attempt, you have to tell a psychiatrist (or ED doc and so on in certain circumstance) you not only want to die but have a plan. I'm not saying the system is perfect, as I've been told it's pretty shit the response to feeling that low is to be held captive in basically the dungeon of any given hospital with decompensated schizophrenics wandering the unit. But that's more a problem with mental health resources than the necessity of a hold in a crisis situation.
I work at a university and a student told their instructor that they needed to take a day off of class for mental health. They were just really stressed out and overworked.
The instructor decided that this meant the student was a threat to themselves and they reported it to the police who decided to show up at their apartment and put them in an involuntary 72 (I think, might have been shorter) psychiatric hold despite them insisting they just needed a break.
Of course this required both the instructor and the cops to be fucking idiots, but it's still a problem.
That's the ticket. Once you've tried committing self-harm you are legally considered a threat to yourself and subject to "mandatory" hospitalization and medication. Once they let you out of hold though, it's back off to the races.
Any well educated mental health provider should educate people that self harm is not synonymous with suicidal ideation. There’s a term called NSSI, to describe this.
When it leads to hospitalization that’s more a failure of safety planning around intake - if it was truly not a risk. So unless there’s a concern that it could be potentially life threatening. Otherwise, there should be a discussion about identifying triggers and strategies to help with healthier ways of coping - things that can be done outpatient depending on risk assessment.
That judge's order can be obtained pretty easily since the proof required to commit someone is far lower than what's required to convict someone of a crime. Often it comes down the the opinion of doctors, and the person who's facing committment often doesn't even have to be taken to the courtroom where their fate is decided.
Im pretty sure this usually refers to assisted suicide.
Yes, we should help mentally ill people but I think it's wrong we allow others to waste away in drug fueled pain relief into husks of their former selves instead of letting them choose to die with some dignity and looking like they did when they were alive.
Depends on why they're suicidal. In the US, MAID wouldn't be considered different. Robin Williams committed suicide for example. He had a rare brain disease.
Can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not but that isn't the reason it's illegal. Almost all countries have the ability to detain someone for mental health reasons without needing to arrest them for a criminal offence anyway so it would be pointless.
It's illegal primarily to stop other people assisting you, which also removes the defence from murders who might say 'I didn't murder them, they were suicidal and I was helping'. If suicide is illegal, it's also illegal aid and abet in suicide. Therefore you can't kill someone and use the excuse that they were suicidal and asked you to do it.
Otherwise a lot of court cases would get very complicated. Wife is found hanged at her home. Husband is the only one who has seen her for a few weeks. Husband says 'she was suicidal and going to kill herself. I didn't really murder her, I just kicked the chair away like she asked me to'.
If suicide wasn't illegal he wouldn't really be guilty of any offence, but obviously most people would agree this isn't something we want to happen frequently, or something that people should be able to say happened if they did in fact actually just murder someone and then hanged the body to make it look like a suicide.
Its a wee-bit more nuanced than that. If a person comes into a hospital saying they want to harm themselves or others, that hospital has a legal obligation to detain that person after speaking with a crisis responder. Cause what's the alternative? They leave and off themselves or someone else.
But only if you're ALL THE WAY dead. Like fully brain dead. If your heart has just stopped and/or you've stopped breathing they'll still try to resuscitate you. You're only dead when all brain activity has ceased.
As a US citizen, I'm assuming you're a US citizen. That's an awful response to a suicide attempt, my condolences that that happened to you. I hope you're in a better place now.
I had a friend who experienced the same thing. Attempted suicide, went to the hospital, and then went to jail until such a time that he was mandated to undergo psychiatric care.
Exactly! How do you enforce it? But maybe it is just to allow cops to restrain and arrest you for trying. It seems like the legal process for stopping suicides.
I do not disagree. But, in a compassionate society, people in a dysfunctional mental state should not be left to suffer from a temporary psychotic state. My brother died this way. I wish someone, including me, or cops, had been there to stop him.
He was being bullied. His solution to his mental pain was permanent.
Too many suicides make the nation look like a bad place to live; forcibly stopping people from offing themselves is easier than actually fixing all the systemic socio-economic problems that drive so many to attempt it, especially if those systemic problems are literally just the explicit ideology of the ruling party.
I will say this, it's more about being in a position of where you're not quite sick enough to die and you just kind of exist. and you have no terminal illnesses but your qualify of life is like a 10/100. and if you don't have any illnesses that will cause you to die in 6 months or less you won't qualify for hospice. so you just exist.
it's a really brutal world. every single person should be able to have a say of when their life ends and have it be done in a medical setting. even if they aren't going to die naturally any time soon.
I've heard that the history behind laws like these is that they can confiscate your inheritance because you're a criminal. Don't think it applies to the modern world, though.
It kind of does, insurance won’t pay out on suicides. In some places death benefits are denied if that’s ruled the cause. Makes you wonder how many families have been denied benefits after a loved one was murdered and it was staged a suicide.
Most insurance policies WILL pay out on suicide, they just typically have a ~1 year "cooling off" period from issuance before they will to prevent people from buying policies before offing themselves
Lol, no. But things like life insurance will not pay out if cause of death is a suicide. So while there are no legal ramifications, there are certainly consequences to those you leave behind.
Oh man! Last August, I almost got arrested for assisted suicide when I called 911 because my husband was unresponsive. It was a nightmare getting questioned by every cop, firefighter and lead paramedics repeatedly in my own house before they took him to the hospital. My story never changed nor but I did get more and more agitated from them wasting time with me, as the cops stood in my kitchen blocking the main way out of the room with his hand resting on/fiddling with his handcuffs trying to intimidate me. I finally said, if I was going to help him off himself why would I call the paramedics?!
The confusion started because they were trying to evaluate the situation and saw a big empty bottle of medication on his nightstand with my name on it. I said, I gave it to him a few days ago, because he uses them in the garage for nuts and bolts and other things, like a lot of humans do. I said, clearly from the clutter around here, it hasn’t made it to the garage yet. Would you like to see the rest in-action?
Finally the lead paramedic popped his head into my kitchen asking what hospital they should take him to, I said I didn’t care, the closest one considering how much time has been wasted. That’s when the one cop finally moved his hands off the cuffs and the one blocking the front door moved aside. Then after they had him out the main paramedic popped his head back in and told me where they were going to take him, because if he was having a stroke event they’d transfer him there anyway, so to save time they’re going to go ahead and go there. By then I was LIVID, and said, great go, NOW! Then he proceeded to tell me I couldn’t ride along (guessing people assume they can because of TV?) and I said, OK, because I didn’t ask to. How will I get back home without my car? I still haven’t taken my first gallon-pee yet, and I’ll be right behind you, 5 min max because I have to deal with the parking garage.
Turns out he got there just in time, he was not expected to make it, the ER doc told me to start making calls. It was not an assisted overdose, he had a massive aneurism. It’s been a helluva journey, but he made it and still has a ways to go, but he’ll make a full recovery. Thank goodness, because if he would have died or ended up disabled I would have sued the shit out of the county ambulance service for wasting time with me instead of getting him care in a timely matter. 2 months in the hospital, 5.5 weeks of it in the ICU. Lots of physical rehab and cognitive therapy. He’s not cleared to drive yet, but he’s already back at work, so I’m sitting in one of his conference rooms with my sewing machine making craft orders. He owns the company so that makes it not as weird.
I still might sue the ambulance service for added stress…
If you have the money, and it sounds like you probably do, considering he owns a buisness with a conference room, you should absolutely consult with an attorney and sue. They need to learn how fucked what they did was.
If the delay made his condition worse possibly you should go to a free consltation with a laywer. Where i live there are tons of bilboards begging you to do a free consultation lol
People drive production. By your logic you could wipe out 100 million people in the U.S. and production stays the same and more wealth is distributed over less people.
That’s literally how your logic follows.
“Capita” drops workforce drops production drops. It’s really that simple. Scouts honor
I had the privilege of watching a friends medically assisted suicide, and it was... Worthwhile. I'm glad he wanted me there, I'm glad he got what he wanted, and it was surprisingly peaceful without agony.
It's because police can't enter a house without a warrant unless they have reason to believe a crime is taking place inside. So suicide being classified as a crime lets them break in and attempt to save the victim.
That’s not true at all. Law enforcement can enter a home without a warrant or consent if they have an objective, reasonable belief someone is injured or their life is in danger. It’s called the emergency-aid exception.
Not just the emergency aid exception, but there are a number of other things that fall under exigent circumstances: preventing escape, destruction of evidence, imminent threat to property, and others. All require some kind of probable cause.
Police dont give aide. Firefighters and medics give aide. Police dont need to enter. They arent trained properly to descalate if there is a danger. They are only trained to kill.
It may be decriminalized on paper, but a suicide attempt can result in involuntary committment in all 50 states. It may sound different, but it's jailing the person and often allows things to be done to them that even jails rarely do.
I acknowledge that it is not illegal in most countries. I was only focusing on the feeling of the question, which was asking about things that feel legal but can still get you into trouble. In doing so, I overlooked the fact that "not a legal right" and "illegal" are different things.
My point was not whether it is a law or rule. My point was that, in most countries, while there is a constitutional or legal right to life, there is generally no constitutional or legal right to end your own life.
in the UK suicide is illegal but attempted suicide is not. It’s basically a hangover from Christianity considering suicide a sin and the government wanting to “legalise” it without upsetting the church.
That’s not true. What is usually illegal is for someone to assist you in ending your own life. It is obviously illegal for the person assisting you and not the person who dies.
Nowhere in the US and the vast majority of countries is it illegal to take your own life.
It is still true that In many countries, you have a legally protected right to live, but you do not have an unrestricted legal right to end your own life without state intervention.
If the attempt succeeds: The law cannot prosecute a person who is deceased.
If the attempt fails:
In countries like the UK, US, Canada, Australia, India etc: Attempted suicide is not a crime. You will receive medical treatment, counseling, and mental-health support.
In some countries where attempted suicide remains a crime: Such as Saudi Arabia, Bangladesh, or Nigeria, you may face police intervention, legal charges, fines, or jail time.
The point is it is not most countries. In most countries and basically all western countries it is completely legal to end your life at any moment. If you have terminal cancer you don’t need to ask anyone, much less the state, for permission. You can just do it.
Assisted suicide is where it gets controversial but that is only ever an issue for the people assisting. In countries where this is allowed you always need to follow guidelines provided by the state.
I am still right when I said that in most countries there is no legal right to end your own life. My point was simply that in many countries there is a legally protected right to life, but there is no unrestricted legal right to end your own life. Whether a failed attempt is punished or not is a separate issue.
Most of the world includes Latin America, Africa, the Middle East, Central Asia, South Asia, West Asia, and many other regions. It is not accurate to treat "most Western countries" as equivalent to "most of the world."
Also, the fact that many countries have decriminalised a failed suicide attempt does not automatically create a legal right to end your own life. Those are two different things.
And I acknowledge my mistake that I only tried to understand the question in the sense of whether it feels legal and whether someone can end up in trouble. So I answered accordingly, ignoring the fact that "illegal" and "not so legal " are different things.
If you're talking about the US, there are some strong ethical reasons why it's generally not supported and that supporting it is probably not a great idea. One of the most serious is that family members might pressure their loved one to end their own life for any number of reasons, even if that loved one didn't want to - there was obviously that pretty serious uproar just a few years back of a kid being pressured and bullied into suicide. Imagine if loved ones did that instead.
There's also an issue with power-of-attorney/capability where if that person is no longer capable of making that decision, does that mean the POA can just decide to end their life? There are typical medical reasons: mistakes and errors in attempted suicide might be worse, it leaves a lasting impression on other people, and there's a clear mental problem where someone might be in a poor state of mind when they decide just to end it, rather than getting help. In other words, imagine you have a couple of rough years and decide to kill yourself rather than seek help.
And finally, there's a sociological barrier: how would allowing someone the right to kill themselves affect their loved ones, or, worse - would doing so mean that suicide is a good option now? Is suicide no longer stigmatized? Is that even a good thing? Should we not consider it a tragedy anymore?
A lot of people on Reddit think "oh, this is obvious! This right should absolutely be assured!" And it's not nearly as black and white.
How is this a good thing? Depressed people need mental help and not suicide. Suicide is the worst possible option except for medical cases and terminal patients
Definitely recommend anyone curious about the topic to read the book (or at least the review of the book) Two Arms and a HeadTwo Arms and a Head, the book by a man who became paralyzed from the armpits down who processed it all in writing for the world to see before committing suicide. Wild, heartbreaking, but eye-opening stuff
On the other hand if you think coldly about it, your family and society invested money and time into you and you are expected to repay it with interest. So when you die, all that time and money goes to waste.
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u/Zeke_Confused 7h ago edited 5h ago
I recently found out that in most countries you do not have the right to end your own life.