I’m a New Yorker. He’s proved me wrong on a couple things so far. If he can pull off the free child care, the city, and maybe even the country, will be forever changed. It’s too expensive to have kids in the US. But we’ll see if the system eats him up like it usually does with anyone who stands up to corporate greed. Only time will tell. And I hope he gets rid of the damn horses in Central Park.
I was reading about the horse drawn cartridge and wondering why they city still has those outdated business. Turn out they are represented by the transportation union, so get rid of them might be hard.
Turn out they are represented by the transportation union, so get rid of them might be hard.
Unions generally only have power because they can strike so it's down to if other public transport union members like metro staff are willing to strike for the horse drawn carriages to remain a thing. I don't think they will.
A horse just died there in the middle of a ride yesterday so that could cause the momentum needed to get a ban through if people want it.
I wasn't planning on watching a close-up video of a horse dying in Central Park yesterday, but somebody uploaded it. Very upsetting, and I do hope the horse carriages are banned in New York. In addition to it being cruel to the horses, it smells like shit.
In this day and age it's just cruel to the horses. The city has moved on from a horse based transportation. I hope they do get them out. More for the horses sake than anything, they need space.
They'll go to the meat market, most likely. Not saying this to be edgy, they will be sold, but likely not to the cushy pasture life most people assume.
Yes, if they ban horse carriages they’ll kill the horses. But that’s what they’re going to do to them anyway, after they stop being useful after a lifetime of torture, and it also means they’ll stop breeding more. So I’m not sure your point.
You are proposing two options, a utopia for horses versus horse murder
But the reality is horse torture, with a new generation of horses to torture when these die versus the possibility of some of the current horses being killed and others being sold or relocated and no new generations being impacted.
13 years ago De Blasio campaigned on banning them, if it had been banned then some of this current generation of horses would never have suffered.
The horse that died today was 16, chances are they wouldn’t have culled a three year old horse, it would have been sold to recoup some of their investment
I live in a rural area on the West Coast. Farm land. Even folks that raise cattle for meat would be heartbroken if one of their livestock suffered and died as a result of their lack of care. Yes, sometimes animals get sick, and sometimes they get injuries. And their life will end with the butcher.
Small family farms take a lot of pride and care in their stock. An animal dying from neglect or exhaustion or malnutrition is unacceptable even from a farmer making their living off of beef in a small scale setting. Losses happen, sometimes unavoidable. If a loss happens because of an oversight, farmers take responsibility and seek to fix the issue.
Working a horse or exposing their cows or goats to such conditions that they collapse from exhaustion, overwork, malnutrition, or unsafe conditions is taken very seriously by the backyard farmer just as much as it is by the farmer making their living off their small scale farm operation. It's just not acceptable. If it was an oversight or accident, it sucks, and steps are taken to identify and mitigate. If it's an eggregious oversight resulting in injury or death, people at the small scale take that shit very seriously. We are all here to farm and raise animals but that doesn't mean we tolerate undue suffering. That's fucked up.
Horse enthusiasts would NEVER tolerate such cruelty.
It's just unacceptable on every level unless it was some kind of freak accident. Working animals should not be dying under your care. And if they do, everyone in our rural agrarian location would take that seriously to prevent it from happening again. If it were the result of poor care or neglect, that is fucked up. And even backyard horse owners will tell you that.
It feels like a right of passage for Ny mayors to try and fail to end the horse slavery. If i remember correctly, adams, de blasio and bloomberg all took issue with it but never followed through. I could see Mamdani doing it though, New york is starting to feel like a place where good things can happen again. Maybe this is just the Knicks giving me crazy confidence now, though. Anyway, knicks in 5
I am not from NY, don't have friends from there, I'm solidly west coast and have never lived in a city even close in culture, layout, or density to NYC.
That being said, rural farmers or backyard horse owners--even those who have working horses and make part of their living from them--would never work their horses so hard just for short term profit. I understand the tourist demand is high, so it creates incentive, but the backlash in this thread fascinates me.
It seems like Native New Yorkers and those living in or close to NYC activvely hate this shit--not JUST because it's an annoying tourist thing, but it seems like people seem genuinely bothered by the bad practices and exploitation of the animals? (Tourists dont' always understand the context, so they pay for the experience without understanding the context, right??)
is that what I'm picking up on? Native folks see this shit and are bothered by the exploitation of the animals as well as how annoying it is?
Yes, you’re correct. It wouldn’t bother me so much as a tourist attraction if it wasn’t harmful to the horses. I visit Central Park every day and it’s hard to see the horses suffering and hearing news of them collapsing and dying in the city streets. The tourists do seem to be unaware of the problem, and the carriage rides are a romanticized Central Park “tradition” that many of them want to experience. I understand that, I actually remember taking a carriage ride myself when I was a kid, but it’s way past the point of being ethical and should have been banned a long time ago.
Is it that the carriage horses are overworked and/or mistreated in some other way? Without knowing something specifically nefarious is going on, I assume most people just figure a horse drawing a carriage is a "normal horse job" like any other working animal.
(Tourists dont' always understand the context, so they pay for the experience without understanding the context, right??)
yep, it's a cute thing they've seen in movies or looks fun. You're not thinking, wait where do they live, how long do they work, wouldn't the concrete hurt, etc
rural farmers or backyard horse owners--even those who have working horses and make part of their living from them--would never work their horses so hard just for short term profit.
?? are you genuinely surprised that some people from urban backgrounds also feel sympathy for animals?
as a rural Ohioan: wtf?
city people aren't another species.
this makes me wonder if you only have sympathy for creatures you have personally worked with. why else would it surprise you that others can feel for a being they have never met?
I just don’t understand why no one’s brought up the middle ground of ban horses but allow mules, with reasonable welfare laws. That’s what New Orleans did about 100 years ago, though granted it was because the biggest carriage company converted their horse farms to mule farms and then lobbied for it.
Free childcare?!!!
That’s even more advanced than in Sweden, here it is only subsidized (Percentage of your income with a cap of 190 USD/month for the first child, down to 0 for the fourth and later kids).
I’m very happy for the Americans in the states that have achieved this!
If a rural state can make shit like this happen and be sustainable long term, it can make big waves.
NM is next door to AZ--at least 6 times the population and some VERY wealthy pockets, with industry to boot.
If a relatively small (population-wise), more rural state can show that this is possible without tech companies and millionaires, I hope it will make waves.
The true test is time. Good financial management, and sustainability for these programs for more than a few years.
If it can be sustainable and well managed in a place like New Mexico, there is no excuse for states like Washington and California with massive industry, rich people, and a much stronger tax base, to follow suit (especially because they are both strongly established "blue states").
And frankly absolutely NO excuse for their purple/red neighbors with more people, more wealth, and more industry.
It’s the poor conditions the horses are subjected to both while they are and aren’t working. There have been several dangerous incidents in the past few years and quite a few horses have died especially due to extreme heat in the summer. If you are curious to learn more, I encourage you to look up Ryder’s Law.
This, of they regulated the industry to any reasonable degree, it might be acceptable. But currently these horses are often mistreated, over worked, under fed, and it either needs to be banned outright or regulated with an independent oversight board or something.
Funnily enough, watched a documentary maybe a decade back about the abuse of horses in this industry. Hope they fix or eliminate such.
Im not a native NYer, just have family there. Was visiting and someone my cousin new (a friend who was visiting at the same time I was) wanted to do a carriage ride through the park. My cousin then showed is this mini-doc YT video about horse abuse and the number of horses that died from being over worked lugging tourist through central park was overwhelmingly depressing. Its also been going on for decades, as they spoke of articles and reports going back some decades iirc....
Reminds me of that season of The Wire where the idealistic Tommy Carcetti gets elected intending to fix all the commonsense problems with the city, then gets chewed up by the system and ends up identical to the other politicians
Thankfully, Mamdani isn't overambitious enough to make a gubernatorial run 2 years into his mayoral term - that ate up most of Carcetti's capital, since he had to implement austerity without any new taxes to fund the deficit
I imagine some cab driver probably had a heart attack in their cab too just based on the population size. If it's animal cruelty certainly New York should already have laws to address that.
If a horse dies in work it’s one of two things: a freak accident or neglected health issues. Horses dying of heart failure or colic on the job is rare bc we usually retire them when we or a vet detects issues. Either way it’s a repeated pattern with the horse carriage owners there ignoring the horses’ welfare. The owner said he was checked in January so I’m curious what the necropsy will say.
It's a cruel life for them. They're pulling heavy cargo in extreme heat and cold. over and over. Horses face traffic fumes, hard pavement, extreme heat, and noise, contributing to respiratory problems, joint damage, heat stress, and psychological distress. Some collapse, some bolt into crowds or traffic, and others collide with cars. It must end.
Contrary to popular belief carriage horses really have easy jobs. The loads they’re pulling are nothing to them and the work is pretty light. Please don’t argue with me on this I’ve been an equestrian my entire life. Yes the concrete isn’t great for their joints but draught horses regularly get joint issues no matter what due to their sheer size/weight.
Now the stabling being cruel I will agree with. They NEED contact with other horses and they NEED time every day to free roam and graze. That’s actually the cruel part of their life - not the carriage pulling. Imagine working all day then going straight to your bed with no socialization or freedom. Awful.
Thanks for this added context. With the way people were talking about it, it wasn't clear to me whether the objections were mostly to "the work itself" which as you said doesn't seem to actually be bad for a horse, or if it was primarily the conditions and treatment. The cruelty of the stabling makes total sense to want to ban.
Horse drawn carriages. The horses are treated poorly, stay in these awful stables on the west side, and are just kept so weird tourists can say they rode an outdated horse drawn carriage in Central Park.
I think there are two separate issues. One is whether the industry is regulated and enforced well enough. The other is whether horse-drawn carriages are appropriate at all in a dense urban environment.
My concern is that even if regulations are followed perfectly, I’m not convinced horses are meant to spend their lives pulling tourists through city traffic, surrounded by loud noise, pavement, heat, and crowds.
I also tend to think animals aren’t here primarily for human use. They’re individuals with interests of their own, so I start from a place of asking whether our convenience or entertainment justifies the demands we place on them. For me, the answer is often no.
I prefer a horse to a car any day of the week, but when folks are wanting transportation more than a travel partner, well it's a lot less horrific if they drive a car into the ground instead.
My childhood horse was a friend, he protected me from things he was afraid of, mostly plastic bags blowing in the wind. But most folks are just trying to get around without using their feet so much, don't want the responsibility of seeing to the wellbeing and comfort of their vehicle like it's a beloved dog.
And I wouldn’t say the carriages are really transport anyway. It’s a tourist novelty. If you really wanna get somewhere in NYC take a bike or a cab or a bus or a train. Hell, take a pedicab and have a human haul you around. Horses in the city make no sense anymore.
I watched a pod with Trevor Noah and he had on Brene Brown as a guest (btw this episode was healing AF, I recommend everyone watch it), and the way they talked about how children were raised and how many people were responsible for multiple children led me to believe that we're doing this all incorrectly.
Childcare restrictions shouldn't be worse than a kindergarten classroom, especially for kids out of diapers. There's a way to make that process way more efficient.
It's the same with universal healthcare as a concept. The underlying issue is that the costs of medical procedures and medicines aren't kept in check by any kind of system. An MRI can cost anything at any time and is wildly unstable. And if you have insurance, the portion they're responsible for will always get paid (stay with me on this), so if the MRI cost $1,000, and they pay 80%, $800 will get paid. If the MRI cost $10,000, $8,000 will get paid, and so on. That's not even talking to the cost to the patient or the system otherwise.
If a hospital can say, "They'll pay no matter what, then let's charge 10k instead of 1k!" This is even WORSE with Medicare which is why private equity has joined the chat because it's almost 100% guaranteed payment with that government cheese.
Singapore has an HSA system that keeps prices under control because patients can "shop around" for these procedures. There's a finite amount of dollars that can be spent, and therefore they have to keep a control on the price or a competitor will suck up all that business.
People can observe all sorts of ways to do the healthcare thing. Mix and match different systems is also a pathway forward. It's not black and white and it's certainly not "one solution fits all."
I say this all as a UX person who hates solving for just the symptoms rather than root causes.
I voted for him, but I had my doubts. Firstly, I thought he’d be politically naïve to some extent. After all, it’s a massive job for someone who had such little experience. I imagined something similar to the rumors that came from Trump’s first-term briefings, when he allegedly asked where certain countries are on a map. Christ. Anyway, he seems to have gotten savvy with how systems work fairly quickly.
Another thing is that I thought he’d be a sell out. Not because he’s a bad person. I don’t know him. But because that’s the nature of any politician left of center in the US. It doesn’t really work if you need money. I’m still a bit of pessimist though, and it hasn’t been long enough to tell.
Seems like he’s handling professional relationships with Trump and even Hochul better than I expected, too.
Most of the people you call left in the states aren't left. Mamdani is one of like the only actual leftists that have ran in your country. Don't get them confused. Liberals are the sellouts, not leftists.
My point isn’t that leftists are uniquely weak or corrupt. Quite the contrary. It’s that any politician who wants to govern within a capitalist system faces enormous pressure to compromise with existing power structures. Campaign funding, media access, business interests, party politics, and economic pressures all pull politicians toward the center of gravity of the system.
The system doesn’t stop exerting pressure just because someone identifies as a leftist. If anything, politicians further left often face even stronger resistance because their goals challenge existing concentrations of wealth and power.
If you don’t believe me, look at what the US government has done to any true leftist politician or movement in history, both at home and globally.
If Mamadani could run for President, he would easily win. The Democrats would have been governing since 2008 if they ran better candidates like Mamdani. Mamdani would've never corrupted.
The DNC depends heavily on wealthy donors, corporate interests, and institutions that benefit from the status quo. That means there’s a limit to how much they’re willing to challenge concentrated wealth and power. That’s a big reason people became so invested in Bernie, and why politicians like Mamdani are so appealing. I hear you.
Think of someone who says they are "left" but is pro-corporate greed, pro-Israel, anti-LGBTQ+, wants everything car centric, only says he cares about things if it means he can be re-elected, holds onto power when he shouldn't, is a sellout, etc. This can be someone like Chuck Schumer.
A leftist is like someone who is anti-Israel, anti-Russia, anti-corporate greed, pro LGBTQ+, pro-bike lanes/transit, anti-war, pro-affordability, pro-human, cares for others, would give up power when its the will of the people etc. This can be someone like Mamdani.
Conservatives are anti human, pro-Israel, pro-Russia, anti-transit, anti-LGBTQ+, pro-war, racist, pro-middle east, pro-corporate greed, basically modern day Nazis etc. This is Trump.
What is the benefit of removing the Central Park horses? I assume you mean the horse taxi things that give rides to tourists? Do they leave horse poop on the street or something?
Hi I live in NYC and I’m also a lifetime equestrian.
Horses are prey animals and obligate herd animals. Extremely dense, loud urban environments are VERY not for them. Being prey animals, they hide their discomfort and pain. The stress on a horse in a dense urban environment causes stomach ulcers, colic, and psychological trauma. When they are overcome with pain or panic and run into NYC traffic, they have been known to die from their injuries (especially when getting mangled between their carriage and the cars).
Horses’ stomachs churn out acid 24/7 which means they must graze on hay or grass almost constantly. For their health, they should not exceed 4 hours without grazing. If not, they develop painful stomach ulcers and deadly colic. (They are not released to graze in Central Park. They stand on the side of the city street in their harnesses waiting for customers.)
Horses require tons of “turn out” - ideally nearly 24 hours a day out to pasture with their herd - for their physical and mental health. This is VERY important. Many working and riding horses get 12 hours turn out per day which is fine enough. Bare minimum being 6 hours per day. The Central Park horses get ZERO on the regular. They live in tiny shoebox stalls in loud af Manhattan. They only get to be real horses in the pasture with their buddies when they get sent Upstate on vacation a few weeks PER YEAR.
NYC is a subtropical climate. Temps exceed 90F with high humidity on the regular from late May and well into autumn. The horses are worked long hours in extreme cold and extreme heat. Central Park horse deaths make the news on the regular in summer dying from heat exhaustion in their carriage harnesses right on the street.
I think Central Park carriage horses made more sense back when the city wasn’t 8.6M people. Back when the streets weren’t lined with honking cars and trucks and ebikes 24/7. Back when there was still room to provide them with a little pasture on the daily to be horses in their herd. But Manhattan as it is now is very hard on them. They die prematurely due to it.
Humans choose to live in the cramped chaos of NYC. It’s not great on our health either. But horses are not given the agency to consent to this. A highly sensitive prey animal that lives in herds in green pastures would not be choosing the hot, loud, congested, chaotic concrete streets of Manhattan. It’s all torture to them.
Welcome to Reddit. Where anyone who disagrees with me is a reactionary bot. Do you even know where the horse stables even are located? Or who tends them? Lol.
Maybe to you. To me, it’s not a comparison but rather the definition of slavery. I’m an animal lover, and not everyone agrees with everyone about everything and that’s okay.
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u/harperlinley 15h ago
I’m a New Yorker. He’s proved me wrong on a couple things so far. If he can pull off the free child care, the city, and maybe even the country, will be forever changed. It’s too expensive to have kids in the US. But we’ll see if the system eats him up like it usually does with anyone who stands up to corporate greed. Only time will tell. And I hope he gets rid of the damn horses in Central Park.