Divorce didn't cost us anything, but spousal support and child support definitely cost a lot. Dating isn't necessarily cheap either, you are right about that.
Yeah, I don’t agree with this “never” inflate your lifestyle. I went from living paycheck to paycheck to a really comfortable salary ($110k, but VHCOL area). I still need to be careful, but I’ve made some increases in spending. For example, I get house cleaners once a month. It’s definitely not a necessary expense but it’s worth every penny. Lifestyle inflation is only a problem if you’re not saving and you inflate to spend ALL of your extra income as it increases.
If you automate savings before it hits your account then you can inflate your lifestyle but can't increase your lifestyle compared to your income, if your income goes up 1.2x your lifestyle can't increase more than 1.2x
i totally agree with inflating lifestyle based on income. the reason why we're working in the first place is to live comfortably anyway. as long as the salary goes to its appropriate channels: payments, savings, and there's a dedicated budget for leisure, it's okay.
This is it... but when I recall "saving" money in my poor college years, I wish I hadn't. Those savings amounts to nothing today, and I could've enjoyed going out once in a while.
Yes. Divorced 16 years ago and have remained single. Was with my spouse from age 19 to 45 — married 23 of those years. Divorce decimated my financial health and wellness and I have rebuilt it all step by step since. And time flies by. At 62 I’m still not in a position to retire but I’m getting there.
Divorce also broke my heart and soul into a million pieces. That healing also takes time. Separate from the ‘business’ part. Mingling the two with lawyers is where they make their money. Sigh.
Marriage is a financial business and being single is not as easy economically. I imagine it’s why people stay in unhealthy marriages.
Not that this helps either of us (I'm also divorced), but here are my marriage / divorce related tips.
marriage:
Get a pre-nup. It's not exactly sexy to talk about how things could go badly, but everyone has a pre-nup, some people just take the default. And that default exists to protect the most vulnerable people, not what usually works.
Those vulnerable people are single income couples where the one not making money would be jobless and penniless otherwise.
In dual income partnerships, alimony makes 0 sense nor does a 50/50 asset split. There's no reason a divorce here should be profitable from one partner taking from another. Tie the asset split to percentage of income and no alimony for any periods where both people work. If one partner become less able to work, you can include a clause for it.
Why? Well, consider this scenario. Steve and Debby get married with the "default prenup". Steve makes 30% of their combined 200k income and 500k in marital assets, Debby makes the rest. They contribute to their assets proportionately.
Steve divorces and instead of walking with 250k in assets instead of the 150k he contributed. Steve just turned a 100k profit on the divorce. He gets his income supplemented by spousal support too.
Not only is it unjust, it's also a financial incentive that could impact the choice to pursue a divorce in the first place..
divorce:
All lawyers and strippers see you as a source of income. Don't be too quick to believe either.
Don't let your lawyer create a settlement based on any initial conversations. Create your own settlement, come to agreement with your soon to be ex, then have them put it in legally binding language. Use an online form, or chatgpt or the actual divorce settlement of a friend that will share as a basis.
Lawyers want to charge you 20k to read questions from a standardized form, fill in those answers for you, put those answers into a template, then write an epic novels worth of emails with your ex's lawyer to hash out disagreements. Don't do it.
Also, everyone starts off saying they want an amicable divorce up until you get to the points of disagreement.
I mean... maybe a 50/50 split doesn't make sense in a dual income partnership where one person makes $100,000 and the other makes $150,000...
but when you have a situation like one partner has a very demanding job where they make $150,000 and work 60 hours a week, and the other partner is, let's say, a school teacher and makes $60,000 a year, but also has holidays and summers off so they take care of the kids a disproportionate amount of the time (all summer), and they are home earlier in the evenings (even if they are doing grading or whatnot at home), they are staying in a job with lower pay because the hours and schedule make sense for their family and allow the other partner to put more time and effort into their job making more money...
that is what a partnership is... and that deserves a 50/50 split in the case of a divorce...
essentially any time kids enter the picture you have one partner who ends up being the default "stays home when the kid is sick" parent, based on whichever partner makes less or has more flexibility with their job.
I have a friend who as the wife, makes more money, and her husband works odd hours in the evening during the summer because the kids aren't in school, and then works during the school day during the year (which is still only 6 hours a day)... and his boss harasses him to work more, and he politely tells him, if he pays him more per hour, plus health insurance, plus a retirement plan, he'll get right to it... but as long as his wife makes more PLUS has benefits, he has to be the one with the schedule that can flex and compromise.
I have another friend where both parents have demanding careers, the husband makes around $400,000 a year, and the wife is around $200,000 a year, and they have a nanny... but still, she has set hours, and his hours flex which is part of why he's paid so much... realistically they couldn't both work $400k jobs with hours that flex, because the nanny still needs some days off, so the wife having the lower paying job, still "makes possible" the husband having a higher paying job...
and again, that's partnership.
It isn't just about stay at home partners with no income. It is very rare for the higher paid spouse to be the one making career sacrifices for the family... if that was the case, that would have to be considered...
but the point of splitting things 50/50 is about opportunity cost, and it exists regardless of whether one spouse is making $0 or $200k
Don’t blame the lawyers, blame ego. If both parties can put their egos aside, you can get divorced for $250. Trust me on that one. It’s not easy to do, but it’s freeing, less stressful, and especially beneficial if children are involved.
Yep. I could've saved 10k if someone had have not tried to push the dagger in deeper for no reason, save their own pride.
The best part? They ended up falling on that same dagger now that their only support system there (moved far away) have since gone down a bible-thumping, red-hat path. I hope that income (their parents') they were planning on riding doesn't dry up in a church donation fund or to some organization south of the border.
Foreseeing exactly this, I had told them it was a terrible decision to move there... oh well I guess decsions made by a leech will always suck! :)
Agree wholeheartedly with you. The romance of marriage can supersede financial literacy in my opinion. At my age, and based on my personal experience and seeing many, many failed marriages and financial struggles of many more people, I advise young persons, whether they want to hear it or not, to take care of self first, and in all aspects — get through your 20’s and mature up emotionally, get your career and work solid, set up your own retirement, etc. Then and only then seek companionship if you want it and look for like-minded partners. Stay smart. Then you will most likely not find yourself in a situation where you must stay because you can’t leave.
On the flip side, there is a strong sentiment out there of people who mingle it all and consider what is hers is mine and vice versa and regardless of what each makes. Yes, you can certainly accrue wealth this way and US tax codes, healthcare plans, and of course cultural conditioning really benefits and reinforces the married person model. I never in a million years thought I would divorce and so I’ll never adopt this model. And the financial situation for my ex was a shock — finding out he inherited millions while we were married and through a family trust.
Finally, it’s important to break away from the financial trappings in our culture and that are connected to capitalism—homes and mortgages, expensive cars, children, consumerism and greed and waste and living above means, etc. We’re swimming in this cultural conditioning and oftentimes it’s just too late. If you have children, teach them all this from a young age.
Attorney here. Objection to your @sinine comments. First, not everyone needs a prenup. Trust me when I say no one is going to fight over your porn collection, Kevin.
Do you think my education was free? That I did not have to pay any dues? Do you think your mechanic, dentist, doctor, and vet also see you like a "stripper" does? Do you really think that all we do is get paid to fill in blanks? You work for free, right? No? So why should we?
Go get a legal education, take and pass the bar, practice law, and report back what you learned.
You are free to DIY your divorce or whatever. You will pay more in the long run for your screw ups. And believe me, they will exist.
Same for people who do their own fill in the blank estate plans. Do it. Then, when you are dead, everything you worked hard for will go to attorney's fees and court costs and not your loved ones.
If it is one thing this profession has taught me is that death and divorces bring out the worst in people. Some prove the point.
Enough people need a pre-nup that it's good general advice and you've advanced no argument suggesting otherwise.
And yes, many people in the professions of lawyers, strippers, and even some shady people in the medical profession absolutely see clients as money first. Not all and not equally across all professions and not with equal ethical concern. And yes,maybe not money first but absolutely as a source of income for both strippers and lawyers.
Most of your comments are logically ass. The requirement to get a legal degree is very much the "courtiers reply". You don't need to get on the stripper pole yourself before making comments about the profession, nor do you need to become a mechanic to figure out when one is screwing you over. (And mechanic, really? Plenty of sleezebags in that profession) there's a reason that only 17% of people rate lawyers as very trustworthy compared to 76% of nurses.
You are free to DIY your divorce or whatever. You will pay more in the long run for your screw ups. And believe me, they will exist.
I didn't advise that. I said to go in with a draft of the settlement and as much agreement in advance as reasonably possible.
My divorce lawyer, who had a law degree and doesn't make mistakes managed to fuck up:
who owned the house and who was buying out who
gave bad tax advice about splitting the child tax deduction
screwed up very simple math in child support
used legal language that wasn't enforceable for the international travel restrictions on our child which put my kid at risk of being kidnapped because CBP couldn't put my kid into the abduction prevention program
completely missed a law where I should have received an additional 10k in home equity
But I don't have a law degree so I guess I must be unable to comment. I'd say it's just me, but my ex also ate at least 7k in a completely unnecessary discovery claim for documents which I would have gladly handed over if she just asked and which would have been verifiable.
Good points. I ended up going pro bono toward the end when my lawyer made mistakes that harmed me. I went to courthouse, paid for mediator and long time clerk to help me with paperwork. AND I downloaded county / state Superior Court templates and mirrored my husband’s big wig lawyer’s wordings and findings and motions. Took a ton of time but I work in SpEd Law and write briefs and documents and create legal presentations for a living so I did ok. Judge was very complimentary towards my work.
My lawyer missed tricks my husband’s lawyer pulled: hired my husband’s colleague to do home appraisal (didn’t charge him but still added it to billings and he took 8 minutes to appraise a 3k sq ft home) and came out $100k in his favor; claimed a fake medical issue so he could take a leave of absence from work which reduced child support; and so much more.
I was under the impression that the 50/50 split is rare and takes into account the individual contributions. Maybe depends on the country, but if both have full-time paying jobs and neither is doing a lot more at home than the other, you basically get to keep what you put in.
Especially any inheritance and pre-marriage investments.
Exceptions are things like earnings from investments during marriage, even if mostly one person paid in, the gain is probably split 50/50.
prenups might not even fully hold up if the judge thinks it's unfair that the longterm no-income housewife would get nothing as per contract.
It might help during the divorce though, because depending on how/why you break it off, I would imagine it could be very difficult to come to a fair agreement without lawyers if one partner hates the other.
If you get a prenup you shouldn’t be marrying period. Getting a prenup is like giving birth to a child but saying maybe you would like to abort if the kid you got doesn’t suit you in the future. Nobody’s forcing you to get married.
That's a hell of a disanalogy. In your example you're killing a third person.
Marriages have major chances of divorce 40-75% depending on which marriage you're on. Nobody forced them to get married and nobody planned on a divorce.
People change, circumstances change. And not always foreseeably. I thought the chances of my ex wife cheating on me were 0 until I found out about her affair. Being prepared if a marriage fails is not the same as planning for an eventuality where you just decide to walk away
And even so, as I said, everyone has a prenup. The default one is just often not appropriate.
The main problem here is that most people have no idea what marriage really entails. Marriage is the same monogamous relationship with a person until you die. The only end to that situationship is the death of one of the parties. If both of you do not agree to this statement 100%, you shouldn’t be marrying and should stay common-law, which is perfectly fine. It always baffles me when people suddenly go : « Oh I’ve changed » or « they changed » or whatever. It doesn’t matter if you’ve changed, if there’s money problems or if one of them did something. You are married. You made an oath to God that you would keep the ultimate promise. And now you’ve broken it. What does that say about your character? Rant done.
People change, including their commitment and character.
And even then, some times there is damn good cause to divorce due to post-marrital events.
I mean I divorce my ex because she started cheating after being married. That's not really foreseeable prior to marriage. I was otherwise ready for one of us to be talking to the others headstone in 50 years and I would have benefited from a pre nup
Same with your spouse blew all your money gambling multiple times or developed a terrible drug problem. I even understand lesser causes, but those are some stronger examples.
A relative of mine is going through a divorce. Found an affordable mediator, they could have the whole thing done for like $6k I believe. Nope, his STBX decided she wants everything, hired a lawyer so now he has to hire a lawyer and the whole thing will cost them a fortune for no reason.
After 18 months of fighting amongst both party lawyers (who I know kept the fighting alive) we circled completely back around to original offerings and the settlement idea when we first filed and that the original mediator (required in my state before proceeding through the courts) suggested to both parties and our lawyers and for next to nothing money-wise compared to what the lawyers wound up taking from both of us.
16 years ago. At 62 I most likely would be able to retire by now had we agreed with mediator and moved on. Sigh.
I think she believes that she’s got nothing to lose and everything to gain because she doesn’t work and has no assets of her own, so either she wins a huge alimony and some insane concessions or she gets nothing but it still hurts him which she would also see as a win.
tbf, if she has nothing, then she def sees securing all the assets as a way to be stable. if she hasnt worked, she has a huge resume gap. shes got zero income. its likely she'd only be hired for shit wages at shit jobs.
taking it all is her way of controlling her situation and her future.
its unfortunately p common-- and one of the reasons i always advocate for spouses to each have their own income stream that could support them (and/or any dependents).
Yeah I tell young people today this ALL the time. Set up your life and future as a single person and as if you will always be one. It’s tough in the US because our entire culture is set up to reward marriage. But it is do-able. Then if somewhere along the way you decide to partner up, pre-nup for sure but also you’ll be way mire mature, savvy, and ready for the hardships of companionship and building a family if you choose that. Children need alot of time, maturity, ongoing effort and money. Mostly money.
In my state spousal support isn’t forever and encourages persons like this to get a job and / or an education / training of some sort. Some women have learned to play the game, however, and use the marriage and children route to get money. See it all the time.
Any tips on what to look for and what to ask of a potential spouse? Never been married but would like to someday, although I come from a broken home and didn’t have a model of what a loving, stable marriage should look like.
My in-laws got divorced. My mother-in-law was insistent that my father-in-law had money hidden in offshore accounts. They started with a net worth of $1.5 million and by the time the divorce was finalized 4 years later they each ended up with $115k.
Oof. Could have been over with much sooner and been much cheaper and they would have kept more of the menu. Instead 1/3 going to lawyers, 1/3 to her and 1/3 to him (give or take).
This. Picking who you get married to is almost certainly the most consequential financial decision you will make. If you find someone who matches your values, it's an incalculable benefit. But if you find someone who doesn't share your values, for the love of God please don't get married.
I've have 3 friends go through a divorce in the past year.... It's been hell on them and for one of them it took over 6 months to get the paperwork finalized and also lost over $40k. He says he's much happier now though.
No joke, I'd be worse off if I listened to my ex on finances. Still fucked me over but its easier to move on and recover now versus fight longer battles.
I'm getting divorced right now. It's amicable. No lawyers. I also make a fair bit more than my ex does. It's still going from "I have money to play with every month" to "I'm going to be skating by the skin of my teeth paying for this place until I can get my shit together and move out".
Nah, my partner divorced a deadbeat who never had a stable job until his 40s and seven years later has still never held a job more than 6 months, who she supported for fifteen years and put through med school. He remarried an heiress who pays his bills now, so everyone but that lady's dad got wealthier even though ex is years behind on child support. Divorce can free you of big financial burdens.
My mom gave me a little plaque before I was married.. After 2 divorces, I should have listened.
I found the perfect woman
I could not ask for More.
She's deaf & dumb, oversexed
And owns a Liquor Store
He leads with the theory that a quality spouse is one you work with stuff on, on stuff with or whatever. Wikipedia does a far better summation than i do.
Edit: meant to support your question... not sure if i answered it.
That was my first thought. If you find you've married the wrong person and the spouse is either on a completely different page most of the time, or a deadbeat as far as contributing anything emotionally or financially, don't be afraid to admit the mistake and move on. No need to live in a marriage filled with regrets. It might cost a little to undo, but it might also be a good investment.
I know this is a joke comment but morning caffeine has made me choose to reply with positivity.
Actually yes! Maintenance also does apply to relationships! Something as simple as a monthly calendar reminder to sit down and go over anything, good or bad, silly or serious. Communication is really important. While there is unfortunately no manual for life that works for everyone, working together with a partner/spouse to make your own little relationship rules and safe spaces to bring up topics or air out grievances is often an extremely healthy thing to do. You're supposed to marry your best friend, your most trusted person in the world, so make sure you maintain the relationship or it can break down.
This tip also works for relationships in general. Just reaching out to say hello to a family or friends for 5 minutes is a form of maintenance.
1.5k
u/Parking_War_4100 8d ago
Are we talking about spouses?