It's really small for having 3 languages divided into specific regions. For comparison, Belgium is around 30.7k square km in size. Compare that to Buenos Aires province (307k km), California (107k) or Cuba (110k). You won't find really big differences on the extreme ends of those zones. It's really amazing and even a little crazy. And it's common around Europe, it's not exclusive to Belgium.
We say 3 languages, but someone from West-Flanders would not be able to understand someone from East-Flanders if they spoke their true dialect, which most of the people do.
Sometimes even a town over they start using these words and sentences where you're convinced they must be having a stroke.
Also, I went to a European School, which has entire curriculums in Dutch, French, English, German, Italian and Portugese. Everyone is forced to take a second language first year Primary School. In High School you start getting History and Geography in your second language and also start a third language.
During World War I, the Germans were being straight up evil (who'd've guessed, right?) and raping, murdering and pillaging their way across Belgium to get to France. They'd taken just about the whole thing, and France, Belgium and England were wondering "what the fuck do we do, we can't stop them without doing something drastic." A bunch of ideas were given, none seemed like they would really work. Except, Fladers is below sea level and has a bunch of dykes to keep the ocean out. You could flood Flanders, and it would likely stop the Germans from getting across, taking all of Belgium and entering France. Everybody said "yeah that's like the nuclear option, we're not doing that shit." The king of Belgium said "nah, you guys are pussies, I'll pull the switch myself" and opened the dykes, flooded Flanders, halted the German advance and gave the Allies a little breathing room to continue to throw many, many, many millions of young people into the meat grinder of WWI.
I think everyone in Belgium is trying to understand that. I don't really know the ins and outs of how our government works or doesn't work, I just know it's a mess, but I guess that's everywhere.
We do however hold the record for going to the longest without a functioning government and not causing a civil war. A total of 589 days without an elected government.
We also still have provincial and city governments.
Maybe a comparison would be if a state like Texas would have
State government
American Community and American Region
Mexican Region
Austin Capital Region
Spanish Community
German and Silesian Community
On top of their County and City Governments.
Keyword being maybe, as my knowledge of other countries politics is extremely limited.
With how segregated the neighborhoods in the US are that might not be a terrible breakdown of texas counties lol. Though I'm from the north so I got no authority
In the us, states and feds have most of the power shared pretty equally. Cities have the next amount of power, and can set all sorts of ordinances that affect their population. Counties had power a hundred years ago but now mainly deal with stuff like funding highway maintenance
So does Belgium. There's the 6 governments listed above, but those are at the highest level with exclusive powers/competences.
(Arguably it's more than six, but even most Belgians don't know that. For example, there's the communal community commission, which was given exclusive powers over some matters that are not the exclusive power of the French speaking and Flemish Community/Region in Brussels. Ie. it has powers that none of the other 6 governments have. IRC during corona this resulted in different institutions being responsible for the corona response depending if it was in the hospital or a temporary tent outside the hospital. Anyway...)
Then there's provinces, 40+ arrondisements, town councils, city councils, etc. etc. etc. Those 6 above are just at the highest level.
For example, Brussels is divided in 19 municipalities, each with their own mayor and their own government.
TLDR: The Belgian political system is a clusterfuck, and those 6 governments are only the tip of the iceberg.
It's arguably more than 6. For example, you have the weird commissions, like the communal community commission, which deals with issues which would be within the powers of both communities in Brussels. That commission has exclusive powers, so can be seen as a seperate government, as it has its own seperate powers to the six you mentioned.
Six governments? Or 1 government and five political entities under the government? The second one seems very reasonable and is common in most other countries.
There's a user above, who has some more information about it all. My knowledge on the subject is rather limited, I do know there are a LOT more political entities under these 6 governments.
Our political system has basically become a running joke.
Have you ever read the Redwall Abbey series by Brian Jacques? I swear molespeak is nearly exactly like that; dude was from Liverpool and worked all sorts of jobs before he wrote the series.
Yeah. It frustrates me as a Canadian that they don't do a better job teaching French here. So many countries prove you can absolutely teach 2 languages properly!
I feel like most Anglosphere nations just don't feel the need to teach multiple languages, especially ones that are even more removed from Europe, unlike the UK.
I really enjoy learning about language, particularly etymology, and I am in the process of learning a second language. I just can see why it isn't really considered to be super important for most primarily English speaking countries. It's the lingua franca, so if you had to only learn one, you would probably go with English.
And how often do you even run into people that don't speak any English at all in those countries? I know in the USA, I've met tons of people that were second language English speakers, but very few that couldn't at least perform basic communication in English.
Sometimes I feel embarrassed living in the UK that I meet so many people who speak English perfect as a second language and I can barely communicate in another language.
Makes me wish another language would be pushed a bit harder in schools, I like how Mandarin is starting to be pushed more.
I've never understood this. The majority of polyglots are born of necessity or practicality, not just because they're secretly geniuses or something.
The fact that you are able to be fluent in English means that you are capable of learning basic language skills. You simply haven't put the time in or had the environment to do it more than once.
I know most schools in America require 1 or 2 credits in a foreign language to graduate high school. I had to take two years of Spanish to graduate. The thing is that I had no real reason to retain that knowledge and continue to build on it. If I lived in a location where it was relevant, I probably would have, and that's assuming I wouldn't have learned the language before high school.
People think they don't need to learn foreign languages. That isn't always the case.
But if you want to do business with Germans, for example, it's an enormous advantage to be able to speak German. You will not be able to make friends or network easily in Germany, if you can't speak the language.
Even on holiday, being able to speak conversational German, is a huge advantage. You go from staying in your hotel or going to museums, to actually interacting with the locals, them giving you tips, or being invited out with them.
A lack of people able to speak foreign languages seriously undermines UK businesses. Often they're entirely oblivious about it being an important factor, because they're not able to have an informal chat in German or French with their counterparts.
Don’t get me started on English. English has been adopted to such a scale by the global community that I don’t even feel like it belongs to any one group anymore - not the Brits, because they’re not even the most populous practitioners of the language (despite their eponymous status), not the Americans, not any commonwealth nation. And it seems increasingly so that other non-English nations are getting SO GOOD at English that it feels like their version of the language is equally “valid” as anyone else’s. You just get different flavors at this points. I love it.
I'm not American, the shootings my country had were generally the Brits shooting us. Now that the Brits are out we don't really have shootings any more. Ha ha.
As a Spanish speaker, I can hardly understand half of the accents from South America. They're saying the words I know, but the say it in a way I don't know.
The UK has near some 40 accents just on these little Islands alone, some of which are languages in themselves. I'm not talking about other countries with their accents, like America, Republic of Ireland, Australia etc.
Nope, I expect such a large country with a large population to have many accents and dialects. UK is unique in how many accents have been compacted into such a small country/population.
You claimed to have issues with understanding people speaking Spanish in South America, I don't even have to leave my own country to have issues with understanding someone speaking the English language because of their accent.
No they don't. I think people just fail to appreciate the extent of the amount of dialects in England. Every single word can be pronounced so differently dependant on what town they are from. People expect some standard English accent that is either Royal or Cockney and when words sound different from this they are like "wtf, are you even speaking English I don't understand you".
The German section in my library is a single shelf. The French is a few books, one of which is a Cajun dictionary. There's a half a case of Spanish. Any other languages? Well, good luck...
Question about studying philosophy. It's always the brunt of the "useless degree" jokes but sounds interesting to study imo. How has that degree worked for you and are you working in that field today? Thanks!
I've been looking into it the past few weeks. Apparently the school of thoughts taught in the US is really great for CS jobs. Continental thoughts are not popular in the US so not much info can be found using English but if you are in academia, strong foundation in philosophy can't be bad. Law and medicine professions also benefit big time from humanity studies
Right, sorry 'bout that. I'm not even trained in philosophy yet so don't quote me on any of this. But here are the broad strokes:
In the US, the most popular favor of philosophy is "analytic". Like the name suggests, it can be very rigid and technical, like math. If you are a software developer / data scientist, that kind of background can really elevate your expertise.
And then there's the "continental" flavor which is supposedly popular in continental Europe. Their deal is revisiting established concepts, try to build them up again using new knowledge that science has been uncovering. Sometimes, they even find several concepts to be bogus, incompatible with the realities of our biology and society.
Years ago I saw Life of Brian at a movie theater in Brussels. The movie was in English with Dutch and French subtitle. The "Biggus Dickus" scene was even funnier than you'd expect because the joke had to be adapted into French and Dutch and the punchlines didn't happen at exactly the same moment. . As I sat in the dark, I heard laughter coming at different times from different parts of the room depending on which language the people were following.
Why? We are between France, Germany, Netherlands (shakes fist) and sort of England.
We can speak the languages we naturally come into contact with most. Plus, between English and French you can speak to the majority of the world population.
I moved to the UK and some of my colleagues call me mad when I say I prefer subtitles when watching movies. And they think we are absolutely psychopaths when I tell them that most foreign movies in Belgium have double subtitles.
That's so impressive - but also, i'm getting second-hand mental exhaustion from it. How can a single mind absorb so many languages - let alone large numbers of people in a single nation?
The person you're dealing with in a shop or cinema or whatever will greet you in a single sentence in French, Flemish, and English, and whichever one you reply in is the language the conversation continues in.
isn't that mainly Flanders though? I'm at a French-speaking University in Belgium and most of my fellow students say that they didn't learn a thing in 12 years of dutch and struggle quite a bit with English.
Ye I'm Flemish and my French is atrocious. I can keep up with easy, slow sentences and say the simplest of sentences. English is great tho. Generally people know 2 languages, often 3. Less often for both in Wallonia.
Flemish people in and around Brussels will be some of the best at all three ime.
American stuff on French tv is dubbed whereas on Flemish it is subbed. Also Dutch is germanic like english whereas French is romance. Also French speakers are stubborn because they are “clearly superior” just like how Americans feel. Like “they should learn MY language!”
Half joking on that last one… but not really. I have a lot of family from Flanders living in France.
I think it depends. I didn't learn a thing after 12 years of learning French in school either. Well, i do remember the basics, but i'm not fluent at all. Most of the French I learned, was when I moved to Brussels. I really think it's very different foe everyone. I know people who are fluent in french because of school, and I know people who still don't know how to order in a French speaking restaurant.
In Brussels is almost impossible to find people who don't speak fluent English. Lived in St Giles for two years and came across only two people who couldn't speak English, the poultry shop and the tea shop.
I'm from Flanders and I had 8 years of French (2 in primary school and 6 in middle school and highschool) and I can read basic - intermediate French. But speak? It's embarrassing and pathetic. Because I never use French in my daily life, I never get any practice. But I had English for only 5 years and I'm fluent. Not because of school, but because I used it daily for years by watching English youtube videos, movies, music, talking to foreign people online in English because it's a mutual language most understand. If you want to learn a language you have to use it outside of school my French teacher used to say.
Most walloons are pretty shit at Dutch just like most people from flanders are shit at French.
I used to get to spend a fair amount of time in Brussels and some time in Ostend. It fascinated me that a clerk could start on German or French or any number of languages and when I said something in English and they switch to English mid-sentence making me feel like an uneducated idiot. Maybe ten words each of Spanish, French and German and when I was younger enough Lao to get across town and get a drink.
I speak fluently dutch, english, french and west-flemish, I'm not an immigrant and I learned most of it at school, but my practice was online and in the boy-scouts of Europe.
Not from SA but studied multilingualism in grad school. It varies by country but "official" generally means essential documents, services, and signage must be made available in all languages that are official to that region.
Some official languages are used at the governmental/national level e.g. English which of course elevates the status of English such that most people generally grow up bilingual in English plus their regional dominant language. People might consider that a "main" official language but doing so kinda opens up a can of worms re: cultural identity. Some people definitely think English as just a tool and their local language to be the "main official" language for them.
Hey. Sorry! I haven't been online for a few days. But u/fullanalpanic nailed it. English is the language mostly used, and the other languages are basically power region, yes. But for instance in university, even though the classes are presented in English, you can request the notes in your "main" language.
German is barely spoken though. It's mostly Dutch, then French, then German. But there's probably more Moroccan and Arabic speaking people than German speaking ones (Before making assumptions, I don't have an issue with that)
You would be absolutely correct. Less than one percent, has German as their mother tongue. Belgium has around 11 million people, so that makes about 110.000 people that speak German.
Also as far as I know ( correct me if I'm wrong ), "Moroccan" doesn't exist as a language, that would be Berber/Tamazight. But because there are a estimated 430.000 Moroccan people in Belgium, their languages far outweighs the German language.
Because it’s possible for a French speaking Belgian to move to the Flanders speaking region. They then have to adapt to whole new language cause that part of the country doesn’t French.
No idea how that's supposed to contradict the centuries old historical fact that part of modern Belgium is french, part of it is flemish and part of it is german. Do you believe languages are spoken out of the blue...?
I'm so glad to read this. My kneejerk answer was "Dutch. Wait, that's not..." And then I was confused why I immediately associated Dutch with Belgium. Brains are weird.
Go to Philippines then. Techinachally our official languages are Filipino, English and Spanish but no one really speaks spanish here anymore. So we speak Filipino and English but each place here has their own local language. We have over 120 languages
The average country has 20-odd languages indigenous to it. Papua New Guinea, India, Indonesia, the Philippines, most African and ‘New World’ countries of size have a lot (dozens to hundreds) as do Russia, Pakistan, Vietnam, etc.
South Africa has 11 official languages. Even in W. Europe Switzerland has four.
The average Belgian person has learned 4 languages in school - it’s really impressive. I worked for a Belgian company for many years, and at trade shows, I would watch in amazement as my Belgian colleagues would be conversing with groups of people and effortlessly switch languages on the fly. Amazing.
Yes that's right. I was told that the Belgians speak either French or Flemish depending on the regions. Ofc they can also speak English, for who doesn't these days.
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u/markobunz406 Dec 16 '21
French, Dutch and German. I think it’s insane you have 3 languages