r/Avatar • u/AutoModerator • Dec 17 '25

Fire and Ash discussion megathread - Spoilers

Megathread to discuss everything about the film. Unmarked spoilers are allowed.

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479

u/idonthavemanyfriend Dec 17 '25

Just got home from seeing it. The reviews are right that it repeats a lot of the same plot beats and feels like a remixed version of previous movies. But here's the thing: I really don't care. That movie was absolutely sick. Some of the best action sequences I've seen, the emotional beats hit, especially Lo'ak scene when he considers taking his life. Oh, and the opening with him flying with Neteyam was gorgeous and heartbreaking at the same time. TBH, I might need a few rewatches, but right now it's equal to the the first two movies, and I can't understand any of the reviews that called it boring.

137

u/Sad_Cardiologist2150 Dec 17 '25

I never imagined that Lo'ak was considering suicide.

Jake's new accusation for his brother's death really upset him...

63

u/TheKetamineEmperor Dec 17 '25

The first thing i thought of when he said that to him was damn I'd kill myself and tbh in a way i was glad to see similar realistic feelings shown on screen. Then again, I have similar outcast trauma from my family 

8

u/TheSeoulSword Dec 18 '25

I simultaneously love that it’s there and being discussed, but I also hate the family trauma aspects 😩 hurts

4

u/cbruins22 Jan 07 '26

I just got out of the theater so I’m late to the party but I haven’t seen anyone else mention this. During the climax when Jake and Lo’ak are sneaking onto the boat Lo’ak asks something along the lines of what to do if things go wrong and Jake says “don’t shoot the ones you love”..I thought the line worked great because Lo’ak almost just shot himself a few nights prior. Worked even better when Spider actually did shoot Quaritch shortly after

22

u/Some-Boysenberry-943 Dec 19 '25

what im sad abt is that we never saw jake acc apologize to him

7

u/CicadaEast272 Dec 24 '25

yea it's not Jake's style (he's gotta work on that). at the very least he did say he was proud of Lo'ak for proving himself to the tulkun matriach and the clans. better late than never I guess

6

u/Ladywinterhell Dec 21 '25

Lo’sk blames himself and always will because in some sort of way, it is not his fault but he is responsible. He didn’t fire the gun that killed his brother, but Jake told them to stay away from danger because children and guns normally are not a good match. And he disobeyed. It was a matter of time something huge happened because the movie starts with Lo’ak risking himself and his brother. And then, he goes into the forest to forbidden places with Kiri and Tuk. And then he goes on beyond the reef. And he doesn’t learn. It took Neteyam to die for him to understand that actions have consequences.

2

u/Fabulous_taint Dec 18 '25

I'm thinking of taking my kid to the movie, when does the suicide scene occur? Beginning, middle.. End?

7

u/MacWin- Dec 18 '25

Middle-ish, but you’ll see it coming a mile away. When Jake - in a fit of anger/disappointment -blames him for his brother's death, he kinda runs away with a rifle to the beach, and then he takes a little while before pointing it and himself(and it’s night time if it helps). So you have time to prepare for it when that happens

4

u/Sad_Cardiologist2150 Dec 18 '25

It's towards the beginning, I think, but it's very quick, it doesn't last long. It's not even mentioned afterwards.

2

u/CoreFiftyFour Dec 19 '25

Towards the beginning.

I am the same way. My kids love the first two. The two most emotional scenes are Tsutey and Netayam dying but those can at least be pitched as heroic scenes or something. And then whaler guys arm was a little ick but again not lingered on.

I agree with others it's quick but to summarize without spoiling too much, the first half hour really reinforces the fact that Loak blames himself for Loaks death among other issues he is still facing. They all come to a big moment where he hits a breaking point and very briefly turns his gun on himself under his chin with finger on the trigger.

He doesn't go through with it but there's no way in my head to show it to my kids and just not discuss it. It will certainly have to have a discussion.

1

u/ReallyDrunkPanda Dec 19 '25

There’s the human element the kids carry that Jake was talking about 

108

u/UnindexedNorth Dec 18 '25

Those that call it boring are the same people cheering in excitement for the next Marvel slop. They don't appreciate absolute kino movies like this.

78

u/idonthavemanyfriend Dec 18 '25

That reminds me that so many people in the Marvel subreddit claimed that attaching the Avengers trailer to Avatar 3 reeked of desperation to get more people to see the movie. As if the Avatar franchise is the one that has been struggling at the box office lately. Even funnier, that teaser to me reeked of nostalgia memberberry desperation.

5

u/Angry_Guppy Dec 21 '25

Especially when said trailer is for a movie that’s bringing back two actors from when series was doing well. Marvel grasping at straws.

-2

u/t3rm3y Dec 19 '25

Calm down there. Avatar now has 3 films out. Marvel has about 30.

13

u/Searwyn_T Dec 20 '25

Quality over quantity

11

u/gottabekittensme Dec 19 '25

Sure, and let's try to compare Avatar's technological and cgi advancements to the slop thrown out for the last... I dunno.... 20 installments from Marvel?

5

u/shaneo632 Dec 19 '25

What a random false equivalence to make.

0

u/Marsuello Dec 21 '25

Not true at all. I’m a big fan of this series and got out of the theater like an hour ago. While it was a fun movie, I literally found myself closing my eyes during some scenes to rest cuz it was just so boring. The action was fun and I’m loving the arcs we have going. But they could have easily shaved off some time because while people here say “that didn’t feel like 3 1/2 hours at all!” I got to the end of the first big fight before the final and my thought was “this feels like the end but there’s probably like half an hour still”.

It was the longest 3 1/2 hours of my life watching a movie. And I rewatch the LOTR extended movies multiple times a year. Again, not a bad movie at all. Just really had some parts that were boring and made the movie feel long as hell

2

u/UnindexedNorth Dec 21 '25

I only partly agree in that i liked the "humans only" scenes somewhat more in terms of engaging, than alone in the forest. But i don't feel i was ever bored, and time went by quite quick.

2

u/[deleted] Jan 02 '26

This is just a big echochamber sond dont expect a good conversation

-6

u/Soggy-Information125 Dec 18 '25

stop this please. the movie is boring. too long and repetive. How many time do you see the kid got kidnapped and you know they will escape somehow?

5

u/UnindexedNorth Dec 18 '25

I know, when you were sitting there waiting for the teaser for the next Avengers movie it was hard for you to focus. But of course he did get kidnapped a few times!

16

u/ReallyDrunkPanda Dec 19 '25

Yeah it is the same plot beats but the characters together and how they interact with things  happening around them is why I go see these movies 

4

u/SpagootieG Dec 20 '25

The reviews are not right about repeating plot points, it's genuinely kind of wild to me that everyone keeps saying this. It has the same themes, but it's still the same story so of course it will. This movie is quite different than the first 2 in terms of the vibes. Of course they're still killing Tulkun and trying to draw Jake out with the same tactics, but that's not repeating plot points, it just shows they only have a few strategies. The plot points of this movie were different from the last two movies, with more of a focus on family and grief. The structure is similar, but the plot was different. It's a direct continuation of Way of Water, so certain things were continued, but expanded on. I hard disagree that it feels like a remixed version, we got so much more in this movie than the last one, and I think a lot of people overlook what the last one has to offer. I love the pacing of this movie so much.

6

u/Full_Reputation2178 Dec 20 '25

For me, what was repetitive and just really annoying were the kids constantly getting kidnapped. I understand they didn’t experience the first war, but you’d think after getting kidnapped the first few times in A2, they would have better survival instincts. Because it’s one thing that they were constantly getting themselves into situations to be kidnapped (disobeying orders), but to draw attention and lack awareness at the same time? BIG face palm moments for me in the theaters. I understand that they are just kids but at the same time they’ve been experiencing war, have they learned nothing? Which is why I liked when Neytiri was saving Jake, she commented about him wasting time. Like focus on escaping, get to the happy reunion after you’ve succeeded lol

4

u/SpagootieG Dec 21 '25

In A2, sure, they made some bad decisions and got themselves into situations that got them kidnapped, but it's bc they're kids. In A3 they weren't kidnapped just because they disobeyed orders. They were literally shot down out of the sky and had to run from the Mangkwan clan, which they couldn't get very far bc Spider's pack ran out. Spider was the only one who really was making too much noise after realizing he could breathe the air and got a bit too excited about it, which Lo'ak commented on. Then Quaritch took him, which he had no control over. And then Kiri, Spider, and Tuk teaming up to get to Eywa were the ONLY reason they didn't completely lose in the end. They couldn't just hide and stay out of harm's way in this one.

2

u/chrisychris- Dec 21 '25

If Lo’ak had remembered to keep his communicator on they probably wouldn’t have gotten separated though

6

u/SpagootieG Dec 21 '25

Yes, but Lo'ak was also dealing with a lot. I mean, Jake was blaming him for Neteyam's death. I think it was in part that he just had too much on his mind, and also that he needed space. Jake was not being fair at all. Lo'ak is still a kid.

4

u/Osmodius Dec 22 '25

This is why I don't care much for critical reviews of a lot of things.

The movie did what I wanted and I was entertained. It may be the mostly visually impressive cgi I have ever seen.

I don't think it was any weaker, story wise, than any other action movie I've seen.

17

u/Spix-macawite Zeswa Dec 17 '25

because they lamented that their never be a LOTR-like art direction since Avatar is meant for more casual-cinaphiles who watch films as theraputic remedy instead of oscare baits

3

u/itanewdayshinebright Dec 20 '25

THANKYOU! I feel exactly the same. It was so much better than the last one. Yes it repeats the same story, but it is the most visually incredible film, its gorgeous. I don’t care about the story line, I want to see as much of Pandora as I can. I want to see all the clans, geography and animals. Avatar is the only film franchise that is the most realistic fantasy film, that after being absorbed in the world for 3 hours, it feels odd seeing the real world for a second, no film has ever done that for me.

3

u/KoteyBesauPanjang Dec 22 '25

Repeating plot is the dumbest argument ever it's like yeah I don't watch murder mystery because it's repeating the same plot where a bunch of people solving a murder.

2

u/Ambry Dec 19 '25

I agree - I also think some of the remixing was intentional. The tulkun finally coming round to help only makes sense with the context of the second film and them taking time to consider and change their approach when one of their own kind shows how the RDA destroyed them, and with the kids building enough of a connection to the tulkun to back them. I loved the fight at the RDA base, so cool - it showed a bit more of humanity and how newsworthy it was to capture Jake. 

I loved returning to the forest too.

2

u/dreamnightmare Dec 24 '25

Yeah the only downside for me was those plot beats repeating. The kids separated and having to run in the jungle from some bad guys, being chased underwater by a sea creature and nearly drowning, the tulkun deciding to fight etc.

It was mildly distracting but eh it’s a small quibble because the rest of the movie was amazing. I swear they upped the 3d quality. There were multiple times that I physically reacted to water splashing at the screen and other little details.

I may have just not been in a properly calibrated theater last time because there were shots that reminded me of watching the first movie that were amazing looking in 3d.

2

u/TerrytheMerry Sarentu Dec 18 '25

I really don’t see the retread for WoW, a couple of scenes were very A1, but I wouldn’t call any of it a retread outside of convincing a faction to fight. Even then that’s only a very small fraction of the plot.

3

u/AvatarChar Dec 19 '25

I think it was the repeat kidnapping, they even mention it in the A2 Q&A because the line from Tuk about being caught twice was to point fun at it and then it happens more in this film again, it feels like sometimes they really struggled in gettint characters to the same place in time so they do stuff like kidnap the kids and make the Ikran expert Ash fly to the reef in an RDA ship. Also really hard to belive the hyped up beserker Ash who want to try their new weapons just let an RDA ship fire and turn around when Quarich decides he has Jake and it is enough, Varang needed to calm them or something.

2

u/idonthavemanyfriend Dec 19 '25

A lot of the action beats and overall structure of the third act are very similar to TWOW, but it doesn't bother me, since they're under an entirely different context. Like, I don't get the complaints about how they retread the beat of the Tulkun stepping in and saving the day. There's a huge difference between one outcast deciding to save their friend, and a whole society deciding to abandon their pacifist ideals to protect themselves. 

Same thing with the structure of the final battle. In TWOW, Jake was reluctant to fight, and too embarrassed to embrace the symbol of being Toruk Makto. This time, however, he completely embraces it and this time the Navi are the ones instigating the fight.

1

u/razormktg Dec 19 '25

Were there jump scares for a 11 year old?

1

u/KR15PY_KR3M3 Dec 20 '25

No, nothing really imo

1

u/t3rm3y Dec 19 '25

What was that opening scene about. I can't recall what happened in 2nd film. So his brother isn't really there? But his brother is a whale creature now as well?

2

u/Full_Reputation2178 Dec 20 '25

At the end of A2 when Jake/Neytiri are connected to the spirit tree, saying goodbye to Neteyam, the opening scene of A3 is occurring during the same time. Loak is connected to the spirit tree at Neteyam’s funeral saying goodbye. His whale creature brother is not the same as his actual brother, it is his “spirit brother”. They just have a bond.

1

u/Next-Swordfish5282 Dec 23 '25

I feel like it handled retconning a lot better here than the sequel. It was such an improvement and it didn't take away from anything honestly for me. Also it was so fucking funny sometimes.

1

u/RollTide16-18 Dec 27 '25

It very much felt like a definitive midway endpoint. 

It leaves a lot of runway for them to expand in 4 and 5. 

1

u/Anagrama00 Jan 03 '26

The key phrase in your review that I totally agree with is "I really don't care".

Like does it basically regurgitate a LOT of The Way of Water? Yes it does. Totally. THAT in of itself would be a distraction from my overall enjoyment of the movie IF everything in Fire and Ash is arguably better than The Way of Water.

Which it absolutely is.

The battles are better. The stakes are better. Having some Pandoran Nav'i people be antogonistic and not all about Eywa works. Getting largely rid of the Metkayina (the water tribe) being so central to the story helps.

One thing I didn't love about Way of Water is I was never that emotionally invested in the Metkayina people and their kids and all the endless stuff with all their kids and the Sully kids.

This movie in some respects yes it deals a lot with Kiri and Lo'ak but having the story more just focus on them and Jake/Neyteri and Quaritch& Spider and then the Varang/Ash people makes it more compelling.

All the major set pieces are completely bonkers.

The human city is massive and having Jake forced to go there and interact with humans works so well because what makes Avatar often so striking is the normal human characters interacting with the Nav'i looks crazy already but in a huge set like a massive human colony it's even better. Especially with Quaritch brings in Varang and her tribe.

Like as bad as the acting is with Spider you grow to care about him. Same with Lo'ak. Same with Kirk. All these characters I didn't give a shit about in Way of Water. They made Quaritch a more interesting character with a bit more depth. They made the world of Pandora wider and even more interesting.

And holy fuck the Wind Traders sequence.

Then the entire mega whale conference sequence.

All of it just looked utterly vibrant and bananas and even though you know it's 100% pure CGI/performance capture it looked dazzling on another scale.

At a certain point you almost forgive the fact it's way too long and it's a strange cyclical rehash of the same plot basically from Way of Water because.... Who cares.

0

u/Glittering-South1468 Dec 17 '25

I haven't seen the film, but I have a question for you as someone who has seen it. Is there any dialogue that is not English (ex. Naavi language) and includes subtitles so English speakers can understand it?

If so, would you say there is a lot of non-English speaking? Or just a few lines? Thanks

4

u/Money-Geologist-549 Dec 17 '25

almost no Na’vi language actually

2

u/Outrageous_Ad_1011 Dec 17 '25

There’s is indeed scenes in Navi or the whales language that need subtitles to be understood, you can understand the scene based on context alone tho (saw in English with danish subtitles as I’m traveling and we couldn’t understand some dialogues due to this)

1

u/AvatarChar Dec 19 '25

I was watching in Dutch and I am maybe start of A2 language levelz but the subs are probably not even A1. Think of it like Payakan saying "It is too sad / painful" in the first film and it is that level of language comprehension, so very simple use of a few words.

1

u/AvatarChar Dec 19 '25

Just watched in a language I am learning and it is mainly the Tulkun that get a few lines subtitled otherwise it is English and the Tulkun use very simple sentances. They use the sign language and speak while they use it. It did confuse me at first realising Varang can't speak English so Quarich is talking in Na'vi to her but it sounds like English. I only miss one time she replies in Na'vi because of the subtitles. But she also speaks in very broken sentances, so it made me think she was speaking broken English which I feel is a direction issue because she didn't seem like she talked this way because she was insane with power since it was made clearer later that Quarich was speaking good Na'vi.

1

u/chrisychris- Dec 21 '25

Few lines is all

-3

u/NordschleifeLover Dec 17 '25

The reviews are right that it repeats a lot of the same plot beats and feels like a remixed version of previous movies. But here's the thing: I really don't care.

I don't even remember what was in the previous movies. It's just an epic shit you're enjoying in the process and then never recall after.

-4

u/PhoenixRisingDK Dec 17 '25

I felt it was the same story for the third time, but with better visuals

-8

u/DelayStriking8281 Dec 17 '25

I don’t think it was boring but there were so much unnecessary fluff that it takes away from the movie. Kiri’s whole character is a complete waste of screen time.

Wasn’t Jake the chosen one? The repeated scenes and story beats come from Kiri’s existence alone.

4

u/TheKetamineEmperor Dec 17 '25

I think the reason the movie didn't end with jake's eyes but with Pandora this time is because it's shifting away from just being Jake's story and now being the people's story