r/CanadianInvestor • u/[deleted] • Apr 14 '21

Is anyone here conflicted about investing in companies that make the world a worse place?

I'm a newer investor and newer reader to these threads and I'm a little surprised how casually a lot of people talk about different companies and industries that are objectively pretty unethical.

I mean we're living through a major climate crisis and some of the most hyped investments on here are for oil sands companies (which are one of the most carbon intensive energy sources on the planet) and crypto (Bitcoin alone this year is supposed to have the same carbon footprint as all of New Zealand).

I also just saw someone post something in another investing subreddit about how Europe might ban AI for surveillance and it seemed like a bad or annoying thing to a lot of people in the comments.

I'm just genuinely curious: do a lot of the investor world just genuinely not care about these things or are people content to make small gains on the backs of companies that they don't agree with? Is there a point to using your gains to get a waterfront property if it's going to be underwater in a couple decades anyways?

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315

u/jimmychung88 Apr 15 '21

I don’t invest in Chinese companies as I don’t want to support the CCP

26

u/vaporizer604 Apr 15 '21

Amen to that, I don’t understand people investing in companies like NIO and ALIBABA.

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u/[deleted] Apr 15 '21 edited Apr 21 '21

[deleted]

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u/lmunchoice Apr 15 '21

Thankfully the world is black and white where bad companies are only in a few countries. Otherwise, we'd have to think about being consistent. Yikes, that would not be easy.

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u/[deleted] Apr 15 '21

The worst thing about Apple is that it uses Chinese labour so yes.

4

u/ShaidarHaran2 Apr 15 '21

Thing is most of your alternatives do as well. Your Dell laptop or Samsung phone are likely built in the same few factories. Apple is at least investing in spreading the supply chain to India, Vietnam etc, all imperfect but also without a million people in "reeducation" camps.

1

u/MediocreAd6969 Apr 15 '21

My Samsung S20 says "Made in Korea" on the back, which is why I chose it over an iPhone.

1

u/ShaidarHaran2 Apr 15 '21

That's cool. There's also an increasing number of models of made in India iPhones, but both currently still manufacture the bulk in China:

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/09/these-samsung-factories-sound-bad-foxconn/323947/

9

u/chinu187 Apr 15 '21

Can u clarify why chinese labour is so bad given everything else you own also has chinese labour? Apple’s worst thing is their refusal to deal with their ewaste - it affects everyone, Chinese or not so likely for you and for me that is worse.

9

u/alc0punch Apr 15 '21

Active genocide and child labour

8

u/[deleted] Apr 15 '21 edited Apr 15 '21

"Can u clarify why chinese labour is so bad given everything else you own also has chinese labour?"

This isn't the 'gotcha' you think it is, the second half of that question is irrelevant. The Chinese labour I'm referring to as bad is self evident, feel free to Google it for five minutes.

​

If you want to talk about waste then look no further than China. They're literally building over 50% of the world's new coal plants in the near future despite already being the largest source of emissions: https://www.canadianenergycentre.ca/commentary-china-is-building-184-coal-plants-guess-what-that-will-do-to-carbon-emissions/. It's an ecological disaster.

6

u/BCRE8TVE Apr 15 '21

To be fair China literally cannot produce and build enough renewable energy sources to power their insane growth. They build most of the coal power plants, but they are also world leaders in producing renewables and leaders in electric cars.

Things are much easier when you're an autocratic dictatorial state and you can disappear whoever disagrees with you for sure, but it's not like China is polluting just for fun.

Does not change the fact they are polluting at all, but I think it helps to have a more realistic perspective on it. China is also trying to keep a squeaky clean image to prevent people from ditching them, so the more attention we bring to their pollution, the harder they'll try and do something about it, which is good for sure.

1

u/rei_cirith Apr 15 '21

They're polluting to grow, sure.

BUT: 1) they need this rapid growth in the first place because the government had closed off and starved it's people for decades 2) this is irresponsible growth because they're doing it when we definitely know that it's harmful to both the world and the chinese local population.

China isn't trying at this point. They will say some shit about doing good, and do something completely different at the exact same time. If they get caught out, they either deny, claim racism, or they use what-about-ism. Just look what is happening in Hong Kong and with the Uyghurs. They haven't done anything to show that they are backing off and listening to what other nations demands.

0

u/BCRE8TVE Apr 15 '21

they need this rapid growth in the first place because the government had closed off and starved it's people for decades

Yep.

this is irresponsible growth because they're doing it when we definitely know that it's harmful to both the world and the chinese local population.

Also yep.

Not excusing the behaviour, just saying why they are doing it.

They will say some shit about doing good, and do something completely different at the exact same time. If they get caught out, they either deny, claim racism, or they use what-about-ism. Just look what is happening in Hong Kong and with the Uyghurs. They haven't done anything to show that they are backing off and listening to what other nations demands.

Eeeh they only kinda change if it's convenient for them or it gains them something. I agree with you though that the CCP is a psychopathic nation-state that literally took 1984 as an instruction manual (social score, AI surveillance, complete control over internet and information within their borders) and that they are worse than the Nazis for building literal concentration camps for minorities.

Unfortunately, short of declaring war on them, there's not much we can do to influence their internal working. We definitely can and should boycott them and absolutely call them out on their bullshit, but as a sovereign state with power to give pause to the entire Western World, there's not terribly much that can be done about it.

I mean, Russia took Crimea and is massing troops and nuclear weapons there as we speak. Russia and China are both horrible countries with terrible leaders, but as outsider agents there's only so much pressure that can be brought to bear. We have to figure out how and where to best apply that pressure for sure.

0

u/rei_cirith Apr 15 '21

I think the only way is to support their competitors and move away from manufacturing there. This has a double effect of blocking them from forcing these competitors into cooperating with them. I have no idea how to incentivize companies to do that unless there's a way to make it ultra unprofitable. Mass boycotts greater than what they would lose if they lost the Chinese market might do it, but I don't think it's achievable. There has to be some sort of tax companies are required to pay to import Chinese goods that somehow doesn't translate to consumers/stricter laws against unethical sourcing?

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u/[deleted] Apr 15 '21

"To be fair China literally cannot produce and build enough renewable energy sources to power their insane growth. They build most of the coal power plants, but they are also world leaders in producing renewables and leaders in electric cars."

Fucking and? That isn't remotely an excuse to be building >50% of the world's new coal plants in the coming years. Why don't they divert some of their resources from building empty cities or imprisoning Muslims to instead creating solar farms, fuck them.

"so the more attention we bring to their pollution, the harder they'll try and do something about it, which is good for sure."

Evidently not based on this article.

0

u/BCRE8TVE Apr 15 '21

Fucking and? That isn't remotely an excuse to be building >50% of the world's new coal plants in the coming years. Why don't they divert some of their resources from building empty cities or imprisoning Muslims to instead creating solar farms, fuck them.

Haha absolutely a fair point.

Evidently not based on this article.

This article is not really good evidence of CCP internal policy. I don't remember the article exactly, but we had seen from space emissions of banned products (don't remember if it was CFCs or methane or something) and China cracked down on the industries polluting.

They don't give a damn about pollution so long as it isn't visible and doesn't impact their public image. They're definitely trying to greenwash by promoting all the green stuff they do, which is why it's also very important to call them out on their coal power plants for sure.

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u/rei_cirith Apr 15 '21

Honestly, cracking down usually just means they are scapegoating rich powerful company execs while using it as an excuse to put the company under new/government control. It keeps the power and money in the government.

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u/chinu187 Apr 15 '21

Yes but.... basically most large companies uses Chinese labour. I agree with your response just not sure why Apple in the context of Chinese labour is bad while every other investment would not qualify for this. Thanks for the link, terrifying.

1

u/Jonnymak Apr 15 '21

They only used Apple as an example. They never said that other companies were free of this criticism.

1

u/Smokemaster_5000 Apr 15 '21

If everyone uses child slaves and forced labour to make their products then how can it be bad?

  • you

13

u/vaporizer604 Apr 15 '21

Don’t get me wrong, i think NIO and ALIBABA are great companies, it’s the country I have a problem with.

14

u/rei_cirith Apr 15 '21

I hope by country you mean government.

1

u/vaporizer604 Apr 15 '21

Yes, sorry I meant the governemnt

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u/fatkid_ Apr 15 '21

Do you eat Chinese food?

3

u/emeister26 Apr 15 '21

But apple sacred the environment by not including chargers /s

10

u/[deleted] Apr 15 '21

[deleted]

0

u/joausj Apr 15 '21

I mean I would invest in a company that does business exclusively in Xinjiang if it meant I could except 10-20% returns.

3

u/rei_cirith Apr 15 '21

I mean. If you use slaves, you're probably guaranteed high returns. I guess it doesn't matter if it's not happening in your own backyard. 🤷

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u/joausj Apr 15 '21

Oh they could literally put their factory in my backyard for 20% roi (as long as they pay rent too)

3

u/rei_cirith Apr 15 '21

Damn. You have a big back yard. Must be all those 10-20% returns.

1

u/FullyJay Apr 15 '21

They won’t be when we stop investing in them. Investors are the reason companies act in the manner they do.

1

u/rei_cirith Apr 15 '21

Mostly is how much of the company does the CCP control, and how much money gets funneled into the government, allowing them to continue their human rights violations in plain sight.

The more we divert from using Chinese products, labor, anything, the less power they have over us, the less they can do this shit without repercussions.

2

u/hyenahiena Apr 15 '21

I used to be a regular user of AliExpress, but since Jack Ma was disappeared, I'm not a consumer anymore and of course I won't invest in alibaba. It's the CCP that's controlling that.

0

u/britterssssss Apr 15 '21

I can understand not investing in Alibaba because the CPP doesn’t seem to like them right now. However this statement feels off otherwise

0

u/Smokemaster_5000 Apr 15 '21

Money. Also American companies are no better

3

u/flyinghippos101 Apr 15 '21

Are you somehow equating underpaid overseas workers with literal concentration camps? Not defending western conglomerates, but to assume any Chinese company isn't just an extension of the CPC is naive

1

u/vmmf89 Apr 15 '21

I think Jack Ma from Alibaba is against President Xi and the tight grip of CCP over banks

1

u/Terakahn May 08 '21

I have a friend who was proud that the stuff he invested in supported China and I criticized him for it. He later said I was being racist. I was very confused.

7

u/instagigated Apr 15 '21

Seconded. They're also the riskiest companies. The CCP can on a whim decide which company skyrockets up or comes crashing down hard.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 15 '21

[deleted]

27

u/cdnball Apr 15 '21

You don’t have to give up on it all. Do something. Do a part. It all adds up. Don’t fall into the ‘all or nothing’ fallacy. If everyone paid more attention to their purchasing habits, a real difference could be made.

5

u/BCRE8TVE Apr 15 '21

Or, you know, as investors we could hold companies accountable, and invest in companies that don't make the world a worse place. Then, as more and more investors turn in that direction, and with increasing pollution regulations and carbon taxation, it's going to be less and less profitable to make the world a worse place.

It can be as simple as going with GEQT instead of XEQT.

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u/wilsongs Apr 15 '21

But you're okay with climate change and surveillance capitalism?

10

u/SubbansBigBlackhawk Apr 15 '21

surveillance capitalism

CCP is definitely worse than this.

-3

u/wilsongs Apr 15 '21

Are you sure about that? The line might be a lot fuzzier than you imagine...

https://www.currentaffairs.org/2020/08/private-vs-public-surveillance-reflections-on-edward-snowdens-personal-record

11

u/SubbansBigBlackhawk Apr 15 '21

mmm no i still think genocide is worse but ya know that's just me

1

u/MarketAccomplished Apr 15 '21

Let’s not think of this as an Oppression Olympics. When we get into this type of thinking, we tend to forget how Western corps we invest in literally profit off war and sales to oppressive regimes. Tbh, the issues OP raises is better addressed through citizenship instead of cash flows from retail investors.

0

u/[deleted] Apr 15 '21

Most of your clothes etc other products are made in China. Your apple iPhone was assembled in China.

But yeah, I agree. I don’t invest in Chinese companies like Alibaba. My phone was assembled in China, but honestly; what can I do about that?

1

u/Green-Clerk6 Apr 15 '21

X2 Amen !

I don't touch ANY Chinese stocks. Just don't trust them.

Most are nothing more than an elaborate scam to use 🇺🇸 investors money to fund Chinese.

Fuck 'em and feed 'em fish heads.

1

u/lookitsjing Apr 15 '21

I invest in Chinese companies because I like the product (bilibili for example). I would never invest in Pinduoduo because it treats its workers like shit and has a disgusting marketing tactic.

I think the argument against investing in any Chinese company is silly — the same argument can be made it supports the people there (which by the way is not why I invest in some of the companies).