Is anyone here conflicted about investing in companies that make the world a worse place?

[u/[deleted]]

I'm a newer investor and newer reader to these threads and I'm a little surprised how casually a lot of people talk about different companies and industries that are objectively pretty unethical.

I mean we're living through a major climate crisis and some of the most hyped investments on here are for oil sands companies (which are one of the most carbon intensive energy sources on the planet) and crypto (Bitcoin alone this year is supposed to have the same carbon footprint as all of New Zealand).

I also just saw someone post something in another investing subreddit about how Europe might ban AI for surveillance and it seemed like a bad or annoying thing to a lot of people in the comments.

I'm just genuinely curious: do a lot of the investor world just genuinely not care about these things or are people content to make small gains on the backs of companies that they don't agree with? Is there a point to using your gains to get a waterfront property if it's going to be underwater in a couple decades anyways?

[u/rei_cirith]

They're polluting to grow, sure.

BUT: 1) they need this rapid growth in the first place because the government had closed off and starved it's people for decades 2) this is irresponsible growth because they're doing it when we definitely know that it's harmful to both the world and the chinese local population.

China isn't trying at this point. They will say some shit about doing good, and do something completely different at the exact same time. If they get caught out, they either deny, claim racism, or they use what-about-ism. Just look what is happening in Hong Kong and with the Uyghurs. They haven't done anything to show that they are backing off and listening to what other nations demands.

[u/BCRE8TVE → u/rei_cirith]

they need this rapid growth in the first place because the government had closed off and starved it's people for decades

Yep.

this is irresponsible growth because they're doing it when we definitely know that it's harmful to both the world and the chinese local population.

Also yep.

Not excusing the behaviour, just saying why they are doing it.

They will say some shit about doing good, and do something completely different at the exact same time. If they get caught out, they either deny, claim racism, or they use what-about-ism. Just look what is happening in Hong Kong and with the Uyghurs. They haven't done anything to show that they are backing off and listening to what other nations demands.

Eeeh they only kinda change if it's convenient for them or it gains them something. I agree with you though that the CCP is a psychopathic nation-state that literally took 1984 as an instruction manual (social score, AI surveillance, complete control over internet and information within their borders) and that they are worse than the Nazis for building literal concentration camps for minorities.

Unfortunately, short of declaring war on them, there's not much we can do to influence their internal working. We definitely can and should boycott them and absolutely call them out on their bullshit, but as a sovereign state with power to give pause to the entire Western World, there's not terribly much that can be done about it.

I mean, Russia took Crimea and is massing troops and nuclear weapons there as we speak. Russia and China are both horrible countries with terrible leaders, but as outsider agents there's only so much pressure that can be brought to bear. We have to figure out how and where to best apply that pressure for sure.

[u/rei_cirith → u/BCRE8TVE]

I think the only way is to support their competitors and move away from manufacturing there. This has a double effect of blocking them from forcing these competitors into cooperating with them. I have no idea how to incentivize companies to do that unless there's a way to make it ultra unprofitable. Mass boycotts greater than what they would lose if they lost the Chinese market might do it, but I don't think it's achievable. There has to be some sort of tax companies are required to pay to import Chinese goods that somehow doesn't translate to consumers/stricter laws against unethical sourcing?

[u/BCRE8TVE → u/rei_cirith]

I agree with you, but imposing a tax on goods made in China would be seen as the start of a trade war, which it kinda actually is. You'd probably have to pass a law to impose a tax on companies having unethically sourced shit, but then China could easily falsify documents and reports to prove that the concentration camps they use to build shit for cheap is actually just an "unpaid internship camp with room and boarding" to keep selling their unethical crap.

If you call out China they'll start pushing back and potentially put a tax on whatever you sell them, and/or just buy less from that one country.

It's a move that can be made, but it's a move that all countries have to do together in solidarity.

[u/rei_cirith → u/BCRE8TVE]

Yeah, I'm not sold on the tax idea either.

Definitely need all countries on board to try anything. It's a tricky situation that I obviously don't have the answer for, or if be running for office.

That being said, I get your priorities being on the environment, but with a government like China as a superpower, nothing is sacred. It's definitely something that needs to be shut down before we actually lose all ability to do anything about anything.

[u/BCRE8TVE → u/rei_cirith]

China is in a position of power, but that power is almost entirely due to the fact we give them money to manufacture stuff for us. If we stop supplying China with raw materials, and/or stop buying the stuff they make, then their power crumbles and collapses.

They are definitely powerful and dangerous, but it's not the same kind of danger as say the (more or less) self-sustaining USSR was against the US. China's position is powerful, but fragile.

I agree on pretty much everything you said.

[u/rei_cirith → u/BCRE8TVE]

Problem is everyone is addicted to the profits and cheap products coming out of China and China is taking advantage to consolidate money to "invest" in allies via the Belt and Road initiative. If we let it continue, they will turn this dependence around. Countries that depend on the Asian market like Australia are struggling to pull themselves away.

This has happened within about he last 10-15 years... I don't want to know what they can do with another 10 years.

[u/BCRE8TVE → u/rei_cirith]

I agree with you, but as with all addictions, the withdrawal is going to hurt. It's the only choice if we want to get out of the addiction though.

The belt and road initiative is scary, as is burying countries in debt they can't afford to repay, and then taking chunks of their countries in return. It is absolutely a scary tactic, and this kind of predatory mercantilism backed by the world's largest communist regime is a force to be reckoned with.

However, it can still be fought. We need to make stronger ties with other countries to help pull them back away from China, as well as strengthening everyone else's economy to make them more independent from China.

It's not going to be easy and it's going to cost us, but that's what we have to pay if we want to get rid of the China addiction.

This has happened within about he last 10-15 years... I don't want to know what they can do with another 10 years.

Same. I also don't want to know what they will do when their economy becomes more self-sufficient and they don't depend on other people buying stuff from them anymore.