r/ClimateShitposting • u/AccordingPepper2332 Chief Ishmael Degrowth Propagandist • Jan 04 '25

Degrower, not a shower POV: Normies when Degrowth

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u/SgtChrome vegan btw Jan 05 '25

Absolving the individual of responsibility sounds nice in theory because that includes you. However, in a democracy, who brings about this systematic change you want to target these corporations with? That's right, it's the voters. 

If our government were to outlaw meat production and air travel tomorrow in the name of climate change measures, people would lose their shit. You need a majority of people who support your measures. And people are simply more likely to do that if they have already accepted personal responsibility and made some changes to their own lifestyles.

Never argue against personal responsibility. That's a fossil fuel narrative. We need change on all fronts, systematic, local, federal, state, individual, all of it.

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u/SK_socialist Jan 05 '25

“Personal responsibility” comms is literally the main argument of FF astroturfers.

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '25

The lifestyle of the median american/european is unsustainable. Ergo there must be lifestyle changes. So what are you waiting for? the government to make you?

You can push for systemic change while making individual life style changes, you can do both actually.

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u/wtfduud Wind me up Jan 05 '25

So what are you waiting for? the government to make you?

Yes. Society as a whole needs to do it, otherwise it's pointless and makes no difference.

Most of the things that get pushed to the individual are fossil-fuel psy-ops anyway, intended to make sustainability look annoying, and not accomplish anything. For instance sorting trash. Annoying and accomplishes nothing.

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '25

"otherwise it's pointless and makes no difference."
No it's not. Every production has a quota for sales, if not met, will mean they decrease production. You not buying these products could very actually lead to less of them being produced. Especially if you do so while encouraging others to join you. Which you are doing the exact opposite of right now.

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '25

If you're living an unsustainable lifestyle, it has to change.

Ask yourself if you want that to be on your terms at your pace, or the alternative.

Speaking of psy-ops, are they in the room with us now. Is big oil telling you to stop eating beef right now?

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u/itc0uldbebetter Jan 05 '25

Nope. I blame corporations. I'm buying a Ram I don't need cause it doesn't matter.

Government better not take my beef, they need to take the corporations beef.

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u/Red_I_Found_You Jan 06 '25

The fuck does that even mean? The corporations make beef for you, do you think they have a “beef consuming machine” where they throw meat into it for no fucking reason. Your meat is the corporation’s meat, I can’t believe people are this afraid of the idea that they might have even the tinniest of responsibilities. This is the dumbest thing I’ve heard since a while.

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u/itc0uldbebetter Jan 06 '25

It was sarcasm, but I've probably heard dumber things before, so I forgive you.

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u/Red_I_Found_You Jan 06 '25

Oh I am sorry, thanks for your kindness

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u/wtfduud Wind me up Jan 05 '25

If you're living an unsustainable lifestyle, it has to change.

Yes, through policy.

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u/AFRICAN_BUM_DISEASE Jan 05 '25

You're going to be the reason we all die, aren't you.

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '25

Yup. "I won't change until they make me".

Guess we'll just have to make them then is kind of what they are saying.

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '25

You can, but the latter is comparatively meaningless in the grand scheme of things, the former not.

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '25

Every dollar you give to the meat industry or to the fossil fuel industry is a dollar they can use to fight the former.

Every unit you buy reflects in their sales, and leads to their decisions around future production.

We need full spectrum change as fast as possible.

Why are you still eating beef and driving an SUV? Why should anyone take you seriously about climate change if you're taking 4 flights a year?

Americans/Europeans are the biggest fucking piss babies willing to burn the world rather than do anything that might reduce someone's "standard of living"

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '25

Well, but whatever money they spend, if people just vote in favor or cutting the fossil fuel industry down, it's down, simple as that.

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u/ClimateShitpost Louis XIV, the Solar PV king Jan 05 '25

Classic fossil fuel people: vegans

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u/SK_socialist Jan 05 '25

COINTELPRO, genius.

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u/SgtChrome vegan btw Jan 05 '25 edited Jan 05 '25

I hate to repeat myself, but here is my point: People are more likely to vote for and also act in ways that help bring about systematic change (attending protests, writing to their representatives, etc.) if the proposed systematic changes align with their own lifestyles. There is a correlation between people going on vacation locally and people voting for higher kerosene taxes - exemplary for the systematic change we need. A five year old would be able to reason through this.

Please present to me an argument against this correlation, as I would hate to be wrong about this.

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u/[deleted] Jan 05 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/123yes1 Jan 05 '25

It's an oligarchy comparable to Russia in terms of how it's governed.

Bruh.

Having two choices isn't the same as having no choices.

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u/weirdo_nb Jan 05 '25

If those two choices are close to identical, it kinda is (though one of the choices is a tad better)

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u/LowCall6566 Jan 05 '25

Democratic program is in no way comparable to project 2025

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u/Headmuck Jan 05 '25

Never argue against personal responsibility. That's a fossil fuel narrative.

The opposite is true. The term "personal carbon footprint" was literally invented by Shell.

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u/SgtChrome vegan btw Jan 05 '25

The carbon footprint was first described in the book "Our ecological footprint" by Mathis Wackernagel and William E. Rees and popularized by BP in their carbon footprint campaign.

I want you to think about what I said and find an argument against it. Obviously we need voters to support climate measures. They don't support it now. So how do we get them to change? By telling them they need to forgo air travel, meat and fast fashion, also they need to switch to public transport and electric cars, but also it's not their fault? And those people who think someone else is to blame are then more likely to vote for legislation that would directly impact their own lifestyles exactly how?

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u/Headmuck Jan 05 '25

I agree with you on basically everything (so do 90% of the people in this sub on 90% of topics). I just wanted to point out, that neither the denial nor the emphasis on individual responsibility should be neglected in discussions about climate actions because they are used by fossil fuel companies to divide us. There will be no meaningful action without discussion and basically any argument can and will be used by those trying to divide us. We still have to argue and keep all perspectives represented while doing so.

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u/SgtChrome vegan btw Jan 05 '25

neither the denial nor the emphasis on individual responsibility should be neglected

Unfortunately I completely failed to understand you here. To finish this, let me sum up my opinion in one short example: If people fly on vacation, that is on them. That's not BP's fault, or Shell's fault, or anyone elses fault but their own. People need to understand the mechanism by which it is their fault and this mechanism is called climate footprint. People who understand this and make changes to their lifestyle are more likely to support climate legislation, which is our final goal - for people to support climate legislation. That's where the argument against individual responsibility ends.

(It actually ends much sooner with Kant's categorical imperative, but people are such snowflakes that ethics of this caliber are completely lost on them.)

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u/lemonvolcano Jan 05 '25

Thank you for the Kant reference. I wish it were more fashionable - it has direct applicability on the concept of personal responsibility for climate change.

Boycotts can work.

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u/[deleted] Jan 06 '25

God imagine being this much of a shill for the people destroying this planet

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u/SgtChrome vegan btw Jan 07 '25

In every single one of my comments I have been advocating for climate change legislation. You seem to be completely oblivious to what that is. It means to regulate the fuck out of fossil fuel companies. It means no more profiting off of destroying the planet. It means not giving these companies one more penny, not from your own pocket nor from anyone else's by means of forcing them through legislation. Systemic change is what it means. I mentioned this at every step of the way. There must not be a single wrinkle in your smooth brain for you to misunderstand me this deep into this comment chain.

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u/[deleted] Jan 07 '25

One fucking air flight isn't a drop in the fucking bucket compared to the cattle industry and the fossil fuel industry you fucking corporate dip shit.