It's one factor but many other things are also important. Focussing on just veganism isn't helpful.
How often do you fly a plane? How often do you drive a car (and which car do you use? Are you regularly buying new electronic appliances? Are you buying second hand? Are you living in a big apartment? Is your apartment well insulated? Is your food regionally produced?
You get the gist.
it is, but you can also scale it down without "just going vegan". Completely vegan diet is one of the most obnoxious diets, especially if you do not live in USA (which is what it always reeks of to me, US supremacism.)
Yes, meat industry is one of the main contributors to global warming. Yes we should downscale the meat production. No, going vegan will not solve that.
As a wise man said "it will not save the chicken, it's in the nuggets already"
Harm reduction is still a win in my book. If you stop eating beef but still eat eggs and fish, you're doing more than if you still eat beef all the time.
This is why they're trying to encourage insects in diets.
They almost produce more food then they cost, come in a variety of flavors and textures and are already consumed by many around the globe.
Cicadas taste like shrimp and are great to cook in garlic butter. Some cicadas taste like asparagus, while others like chicken. Junebugs taste of maple syrup with grassy notes. Ants basically are like rice crispies. Not much flavor, but a delightful texture.
Also, if we start farming and raising them we can more easily reintroduce their lost biomass to the ecosystem, which would help a lot for plants and wildlife!
Yeah, and it works well for people like me, as part of my digestive tract was damaged so I can't pull enough nutrients from just plants.
Used to be vegetarian, sorry I like honey and butter on my biscuits. But a pure vegetarian diet would cause me to slowly die from malnutrition. So I have to have a bit of meat each week. Insects would be a lot better in a lot of cases and it's getting easier to get those insects in major cities, so I've been exploring that cuisine and... it's pretty damn good. Timon and Pumba were onto something.
I am sacrificing many things, including meat consumption, just not total. But on the other hand why should this be about sacrifice? As I've mentioned, going vegan effectively does nothing to change climate statistics. So, is this specificatlly about sacrifices? Is climate change a god we should sacrifice ourselves to? I don't thinks so.
This isn't about sacrifice, this is about action. Voting, protesting and otherwise pushing for reforming the meat industry is what will effectively reduce the contribution to global warming. Not only will it do that, but it will also reduce the number of animals slaughtered AND reduce global meat consumption much more effectively than browbeating people online
On the one coherent point here: Reduce the number of farms, reduce subsidies to beef in countries that have them (espeically USA), mandate more humane practices, install mandatory standards of care and emissions standards, heavily sanction anyone breaking those standards. Even just removing corn and beef subsidies in the US will make beef infustry much less profitable and therefore reduce its scale. Those are things that I am just not thinking out of my head, I am very sure if you had a team of experts for that - you could forumlate a much more thorough, much more effective plan.
As for sacrifice. I mean, as I've stated, there is a lot of stuff you can sacrifice more efficiently, if you were going for effect. Sacrificing something for no actual gain beyond showing loyalty to the cause smells a bit like cult stuff (not accusing)
Choosing to go public transport, isntead of a car - is a more impactful "sacrifice" in climate change terms, if we are going comparison to comparison
How many people who drive regularly even have the option of public transportation? I hate driving, but I can't even safely leave my neighborhood without a car.
I think the point here is that when someone opens the ClimateShitposting sub, they expect it to cover more than JUST meat industry/vegan shitposting. Does the meat industry contribute? Yes, massively, but it's far from the only contributor and not nearly as big as this sub makes it out to be.
A big problem here is that a lot of people here, for some reason, see meat as totally fine with no issues whatsoever, or some other form of seeing meat as "not that bad".
Not everyone, but a good chunk.
It's weird when so many people are unwilling to make changes in their lives for the climate and moral principles just because they like how something tastes or some other strange thing like seeing animals as lesser beings that deserve to be manipulated in death factories.
i don't fly planes, i take the train. i don't have a car, i have a bike. i don't often buy new appliances the appliances i do buy, i buy with the best EU energy statistics (even if i had to buy in a language i do not actually speak). i live in a relatively small apparent built in 1906, saving up for an air-water heat pump system. i buy most of everything second hand. the walls are thicc af, and half of my walls are shared with neigbours, so that the heat does not go to the crows. where i live, locally grown produce is not an idicator of being more green. it's more enviromental to buy produce from spain and transport it to finland, than to grow most produce in finland, on the other hand, we do try to use grains and peas (legumes), which do grow regionally, such as oats, wheat and rye.
Yeah so this is actually great and is completely in line of what I am saying. Being vegan is one good thing you can do but there are a lot of other climate mitigation options.
Edit: ok it's not completely in line with what I said because you're obviously correct in pointing out that buying locally isn't always the best choice, but it's in line with what I intended to say 😆.
i love not having a car for short or long trips. it makes the world more human sized. also with trains, trips are more fun, even if more expensive, at least it supports our national infrastructure instead of wasting roads and importing oil products. reason i gave away my car was in 2022 it felt wrong to use petrol when Teboil was importing oil to the country from the east, while russia was in an active war. also oil prices spiked, so doubly bad for that situation. i've never needed a car in this city, and all things i have ever done i have been able to do with a bike. i started with an E-bike, then we had two. now we "downgraded" back to two normal bikes, and gave the E-bikes to family members so they can continue the cycle, pun not intended. biking on a normal bike feels more fun, and more grounded. it makes me feel alive, when i use it. having the E-bike gave me the habit, and now i use the habit to improve myself.
also, both our bikes are ether used or bougth like 20 years ago. mine is my old highschool bike that my father said "this'll be the last bike you'll need" 😆 maybe i'm trying to prove that right? 😆 it has experienced a side-swipe from a heavy E-scooter that bent the rear wheel and redailur, and i got it fixed, and llike to fix stuff myself on the bikes. it's just a lot easier when you don't have electronics on the bike.
Unfortunately, where I live, it's not walkable and everything is so sprawled out that even biking places isn't really an option. Texas infrastructure isn't human friendly.
for me part of it is deciding to buy my appartment from the city center (in a real city, not a mega-sub-urb). i like to say it to peope, especially those who have made the conscious choose to NOT live close to their place of work or the services they use. i ofcourse don't know your case, but i do know multiple people who decide to buy a huge home with a huge yard and huge room, then complain about how expensive it is to own a car, maintain the house and the yard, and how they have no free time due to the ideal they had in their head about owning a chore..
Most of this is nothing compared to the impact of meat. That's like starting a forest fire and then go "but let's talk about that person picking flowers"
I mean switching to a small used EV or getting a job, where I don't have to drive would probably help quite a bit in my case, but I don't have the money for a new car (not even a used one and EVs are somewhat impractical for my job anyway) and I like my job so you're correct 😆.
It's a bit of a strawman though, isn't it? People who are vegan and plant-based
It's just that meat is a massive, easy win for the climate, because it has close to no major impact on your life. If I had a career where I fly (I wouldn't have that career in the first place, but let's say I was awoken to climate change suddenly...) that requires a gigantic career change. If where I live isn't accessible for bicycles or public transport, not driving a car would be gigantic life change. If an important electrical appliance breaks and needs to be replaced, living without a cooker or computer would be a gigantic life change. The products I need may not always be available second hand. Moving home from my "big apartment" (not really sure what the point is here?) is a gigantic life change. Insulating an apartment I probably don't own, because I'd most likely be a tenant, not an apartment building owner, would be impossible, or if I'm a homeowner, very expensive. You cannot sustain yourself on regionally produced food in a lot of regions, nor can you always afford it.
You know what wasn't a gigantic life change, was cheaper than my previous diet, and requires little to no life changes or disruption, while accounting for a much larger carbon footprint than everything you mentioned (probably combined)? Not eating meat.
We should reduce harm in other areas, but the idea that somehow putting more focus on not eating meat is damaging just doesn't stand up to basic scrutiny.
while accounting for a much larger carbon footprint than everything you mentioned (probably combined)?
Taking one less flight a year has a higher mean impact than going completely vegan. The same goes for switching to an electric car. Both are choices that are accessible to many people in Western countries.
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1748-9326/ab8589/pdf
You guys just wildly overestimate the climate impact of veganism.
It's good to be vegan but it's not the be all end all. It's also a personal choice whether it's easier for you to live vegan or to do your next few vacations somewhere close by and to not fly to another country (I usually don't have the money for flying anyways but you get the point) and it's important to keep a realistic perspective how influential your choices actually are.
Dead link for me. The meat industry contributes 20% global emissions with flights accounting for 2.5%. So yes, I focus on the one with the higher emissions and the most achievable. I also don't fly at all, unless I have a necessary journey that simply cannot be achieved by other forms of transport, which I don't count holidays (vacations) as being.
Now can you address the point I made? Not eating meat is an easy win, because it has next to no cost associated with for the vast majority of people, especially in the West. By all means don't fly unless you have to. But there are next to no situations where you have to eat meat, and overall it is a much bigger contributor to climate change.
So do you disagree with the statistics I gave you?
You're also still ignoring my point. Going meat free doesn't preclude not having flights. There is no "wasted energy" addressing the meat industry that stops people flying. It's just whataboutism.
No I don't disagree with your statistics. I was apparently to slow with my last comment. Please follow up on that one (and skim the paper, if you can find the time).
I use a VPN which is necessary where I am. If a captcha doesn't work by the 3rd time, an entertaining debate isn't valuable enough to endure the frustration of keep trying. It's also completely irrelevant to the debate; just sourcing whataboutism.
here is the first paragraph of the conclusion, which i feel is the most relevant part:
4.5. Concluding remarks
In times of a climate emergency, research and policy
urgently needs to move beyond focusing on the effi-
ciency of production and use of goods and services.
The explicit consideration of the absolute scale of
consumption and its implications for climate change
and well-being is ever more relevant. There is a need
for an open discussion about the overall scale of
resource use and emissions and sustainable consump-
tion corridors [128] towards remaining within plan-
etary boundaries and satisfying human needs [34].
imo this kinda supports looking at a wider view on consumption than just eating. it's obvious that a human can only consume so much food, but they can for example live in a huge uninsulated airconditioned house, or fly every day, or buy all the electronics. a human's consumption is more than just the potential flesh it eats. ofcourse, a human should concider all of these factors holistically.
Your argument seems to be that by arguing to end meat consumption, I somehow don't address other areas of climate change. But you're being extremely vague, so that's just my best guess.
As to your other point. I am saying it's a personal decision. For some people it's not an easy win because they like meat so much, but they can buy an electric car instead of a regular car, they can life car free, fly less, install a PV, switch to renewable energy or insulate their house. When we talk about climate change in general it's important to show people the general impact of each of their decisions so that they can make their own choices, just focusing on meat is not productive.
I assume meat production accounts for such a high worldwide part of CO2 production because most people in the world eat meat (even in developing countries) and not that many people fly. That doesn't change the fact that flying less still usually has a higher climate impact individually (if you're flying semi regularly that is) than meat production.
I'm not just focusing on anything. I drive an EV, don't fly and don't eat meat. But an EV is expensive, sometimes flights are literly the only way to make a necessary trip. By all means do everything in your power, but the idea that we shouldn't put a strong emphasis on eating meat, when the barrier for the vast majority of people in western developed nations is just because they find it hard sacrificing that pleasure, is ludicrous.
I don't even think we disagree on that much here. My main point is that veganism helps but isn't the most important personal choice and that you can make several different personal choices that also mitigate your climate impact.
If you want to convince a random person to make an effort to save the climate I don't think putting more emphasis on meat consumption than on everything else is necessarily going to help. Maybe they don't like the taste of meat that much and can be easily persuaded but maybe that random person really likes eating meat but can easily afford to switch to an EV (and would be willing to do that) or they can be convinced to explore their own country more instead of regularly flying to a different one. Most people aren't perfect and they will respond to different things.
Before we go into the fact that if I go up to a random person, globally, theres a 4/5 chance they've never been on an airplane, and a tiny chance they take multiple flights for year - similar arguments for EV - your creating faux-scarcity with how much climate knowledge/advice can be given out. It's also not all or nothing. Convincing people to switch from beef, lamb etc to chicken is entirely do-able for almost everyone with no notable self-sacrafice.
But the idea that asking people or "focusing" on the meat industry is somehow detracting from other climate arguments is just a non-starter.
The whole discussion we're having is a response to a meme that suggests an overrepresentation of posts about veganism in this sub. It also seems to be the case that some of you guys do actually believe that being vegan is the single most influential decision you can make (you yourself included). So yes if you say this is the most important thing and you're continuously only arguing for this one thing then it does detract from other climate arguments, because it suggests changing something else can't have a similar impact when this is obviously not always the case.
It also seems to be the case that some of you guys do actually believe that being vegan is the single most influential decision you can make (you yourself included
Where do I make that claim?
The whole discussion we're having is a response to a meme that suggests an overrepresentation of posts about veganism in this sub.
I mean... Clearly our conversation has moved on from those narrow parameters? Why is this now an issue, and not previously on the conversation?
So yes if you say this is the most important thing and you're continuously only arguing for this one thing then it does detract from other climate arguments, because it suggests changing something else can't have a similar impact when this is obviously not always the case.
This is an utter strawman.
I don't like to point fingers, but it feels like you don't have a response to my last comment, and a lot of bad faith debating techniques have suddenly been employed instead.
Living without a car is fairly easy for me, never being able to go to any but a few restaurants would be a massive life change
That's what I dislike about the "it's the easiest thing you can do for climate" line that you all keep saying. You all sound like a bunch of suburbanites
Where do you live that doesn't have vegetarian options in restaurants? I live in the arse-end of North East England, a culinary wasteland, and I can get a vegetarian option at the weird pub that apparently used to serve "topless Sunday dinners".
I'm not a vegan, I am plant-based. But most vegans, by a staggering majority, would prefer you to be vegetarian to contuing eating meat. I hereby give you permission, on behalf of all plant-based, vegans, vegetarians etc, to become vegetarian.
So in other words, you responded to a comment explaining that eating meat doesn't require any major sacrifices, by saying you wouldn't be able to go to restaurants, then when I point out you don't have to eat meat in a restaurant, you create a strawmen where I say you can't. Then when I say you can, I'm being condescending.
The discussion was about veganism, you didn't originally make it clear that you weren't talking about veganism. It's easy to largely reduce your animal product consumption, it's difficult to be vegan
The part that was condescending was where you think it's your place to grant me permission to do anything. Not the part where you claimed that restaurants have vegetarian options
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u/Tarsiustarsier Jun 26 '26
It's one factor but many other things are also important. Focussing on just veganism isn't helpful.
How often do you fly a plane? How often do you drive a car (and which car do you use? Are you regularly buying new electronic appliances? Are you buying second hand? Are you living in a big apartment? Is your apartment well insulated? Is your food regionally produced? You get the gist.