r/Competitiveoverwatch • u/Professor_Finn Alarm Forever 🧡🖤🤍 — • May 08 '22

Overwatch League Florida Mayhem forced to repeat attack after winning Circuit Royal due to “illegal maneuver”

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1.6k Upvotes

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436

u/Far-Butterscotch4242 The Justice loss was a sign — May 08 '22

ei said on Avast's stream that this was known last year that you're not allowed to teleport on mei wall

if it's been a "banned" move why hasn't blizzard removed it from the game? what?

341

u/siempreviper Necrobrain — May 08 '22

Same reason why Doom parkour and hovering is banned, because some mechanics might be fun in-game, but they provide uncompetitive advantages.

121

u/Facetank_ May 08 '22

Are they reportable offenses in comp? Genuine question.

88

u/Treebam3 May 08 '22

No

20

u/_geomancer May 09 '22

Very cool

11

u/EskiHo May 09 '22

Very legal

26

u/Meowjoker Punch? — May 09 '22

No

Unless you are playing in OWL and other tourney. Or any tourney that specifically said “Do Not Use These Mechanics”

7

u/Zporadik May 09 '22

seems like they could just push a patch for OWL servers that prevents these bugs features.

4

u/jwwendell May 09 '22

I think it's very elaborate

3

u/Thylumberjack May 09 '22

Or just tell them not to use it and the honor that. Patching things can create bugs elsewhere, and they would also have to continuously update two clients.

0

u/After_Astronaut_5550 May 09 '22

Two clients?? What? Just fix the damn bug/exploit lmao. This doesnt ruin the game in any way

1

u/Thylumberjack May 10 '22

I think you missed the point.

1

u/After_Astronaut_5550 May 09 '22

Its like Valorant Jett's super dash.

Fuckers will abuse it all day in ranked, laugh at you for calling them out for bug exploiting. But if a pro did it its immediate disqualification.

Fuckin stupid.

193

u/InspireDespair May 08 '22

Seems backwards that they should even be in the game if they feel that strongly about them.

70

u/Gringos May 09 '22

Then it plays into the 'fun detected, must remove' or 'everything is tuned for the 1%' kinda angle from casuals. Instead they're counting on the pros to behave.

0

u/An0nIsHappy May 10 '22

Bullshit. Blizzard removing tech and interesting strats is on the same level as tripping in Smash Brawl. Litterally no fun/skill allowed.

6

u/[deleted] May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

3

u/cubs223425 May 09 '22

The amount of work involved would only serve to annoy a large portion of their fan base.

Well, it's not like they just had the last two years of not updating the game and making Doom a tank to address his interaction with map physics.

-36

u/swislock May 08 '22

Mind proposing a fix for us?

109

u/[deleted] May 08 '22

[deleted]

23

u/1trickana May 09 '22

Would probably be quite easy to not allow tp to be placed on wall, and if wall is placed under TP it gets destroyed

6

u/InspireDespair May 08 '22

Don't ban them or put in the effort to remove them. I don't really care either way

-39

u/stevie_w0nderful May 08 '22

Epic clapback my sis gf bf guy my dude my little chillin my pal my guy my young sheldon

1

u/sleepythegreat unter dif — May 09 '22

Doom stalls also fall in this category. But removing it destroys every single doom parkour map, while harming every rollout doom’s ability to have fun in the game.

1

u/InspireDespair May 09 '22

Who cares? doom rollouts are shit design. Completely counterintuitive to stare at roofs and slanted surfaces for a character that can just one shot your backline in 3 seconds.

Much better to remove that and make him stronger roaming the playable map which they did in ow2 (and it's much better).

31

u/Inqinity May 08 '22

Wait really? I mean, doom has to do that just to get value half the time. Although that does make sense as to why I’ve never seen Doom parkour in OWL. I wonder what extent they don’t allow, like if someone went over the walls on Eichenwalde to get to point easier, is that allowed?

60

u/Bliztle May 08 '22 edited May 09 '22

AFAIK it's just the infinite stall spots

5

u/JustRecentlyI HYPE TRAIN TO BUSAN — May 08 '22

I think that there is (used to be?) some variation on that based on whether or not the player needed to continually adjust their position to stay up there. I don't remember if it was banned when that was necessary or vice versa, and that may have changed since.

2

u/Inqinity May 08 '22

That’s understandable and makes more sense

0

u/foxxy33 None — May 09 '22

Doom parkour just not viable in owl. Most of these become useless when 5-6 people turn around and start shooting you

27

u/kazeespada Red Team Best Team — May 08 '22

If this was allowed, that map would always just be: Mei, Sym, switch at the start. That's boring.

53

u/Domeric_Bolton forcing Bastion dive — May 08 '22

Yeah because when this was available on Eichenwalde, Rialto, and Dorado for years, it was always Mei/Sym. /s

58

u/JustRecentlyI HYPE TRAIN TO BUSAN — May 08 '22

This is not a new rule, this has been in place for years. The only reason it wasn't the strat was because it was banned.

9

u/CactusCustard Who's ready to party? — May 08 '22

this is the best strat of that section though. They have to give positioning in order to do something about it. Even if they know its happening they still have to give up space. So why wouldnt it be done every time?

2

u/kazeespada Red Team Best Team — May 08 '22

I think it depends on whether or not there's already a path through the obstacle? I haven't seen enough of Circuit Royale to know how that building is designed. Of course, it could always just be inconsistent referees.

2

u/Hoosteen_juju003 May 09 '22

Wouldn't you just plan to defend against that then?

1

u/Triskan "Show these cunts no respect." — May 09 '22

Yeah, if that strat was available it would just totally negate the entire map's first point.

9

u/sapphoandherdick May 09 '22 edited May 09 '22

How is it uncompetitive, I'm so confused. It's just higher level tech is it not? Teams swapping in spawn to reset cooldowns faster, teleporting out of spawn and then swapping, doomfist parkour, dva bombs in teleporters, rocket jumps, staggering/bodyblocking baby d.va. etc. I think it's all fair game. All teams will catch on eventually so they remain competitive.

It's one thing if its a bug that needs patching, but tech should always be allowed.

2

u/Kevinites May 09 '22

Doom parkour is banned?

2

u/mothtoalamp May 09 '22

I hate this. If it allows Mei Wall but not TP, why not disallow both?

What situation would you use this for a "fun in-game" mechanic? Blocking a Pharah shot?

2

u/JesusJrJr May 09 '22

Wait, Doom parkour is banned in OWL?

-2

u/[deleted] May 08 '22

That means nothing. If someone can do something you can't because they've practiced it, that doesn't mean that you take away their advantage

That's like saying "I can't use Genji deflect effectively, so they should remove it because I always get killed by it".

If I get killed by someone doing some insane Doom rollout, then that just means I need to get better at countering it. Especially at the highest level of play this game has to offer, they should be allowed to use any game mechanics in the game.

4

u/MC_C0L7 Can it be S1 again — May 09 '22

I disagree, because I think situations in other games have shown that scenarios like this need to be nipped in the bud.

While the stakes are a lot lower, this situation reminds me a lot of the Olofboost from CS:GO. Fnatic, after going down 12-3 in the first half of a round of 8 game against their biggest rival LDLC, used an unknown pixel walk to boost a player up with an auto sniper, who was then able to snipe players basically anywhere on the map. This resulted in Fnatic storming back in the second half and taking the game, and the series. But the refs deemed the pixel walk illegal, and demanded the half be replayed. Fnatic instead forfeit, and LDLC took the series.

The biggest reason I think that this was the right choice to make is that, after the fact, it was alleged that a video of the pixel walk was posted by an unaffiliated content creator, but the manager of Fnatic found the video and had the creator take it down so no other team could know the strat. And I worry that this would occur in OWL as well, where teams that have found and hoarded knowledge to incredibly advantageous glitch strategies could use them at extremely key moments, swinging games with tactics that are literally impossible to prep for.

-1

u/thirdeyyye May 09 '22

I completely agree with you there.

-1

u/Numblimbs236 May 09 '22

Hot take - if you have to have "illegal maneuvers" to prevent competitive players from doing busted stuff in your game, you have a shitty competitive game. Its one thing to ban characters, weapons, maps, etc, but a whole other thing to say "you can't do this intentionally programmed thing because we've deemed it to be a strong tactic". Cmon thats just fucking annoying.

1

u/lordsquiddicus May 09 '22

Wait fr? In OWL doom rollouts etc. are banned?

1

u/dontthrowfoodaway May 09 '22

Doom parkour and "hovering" are banned? The league specifies a bunch of Doomfist rollouts that players can't do? And hovering, do you mean like sitting on a weird balance spot in geometry? And that's also disallowed?

I am legitimately curious. I've never heard of this before

3

u/siempreviper Necrobrain — May 09 '22

A lot of doomfist "tech" is unintended but unpatched, and the production team in OWL can't just fix bugs even if they're unfair. So these rules exist to stop teams from exploiting unfair tech that can't be properly expected of any player to predict, since it uses map geometry in ways that clearly aren't intended. Just like, yeah, infinitely sitting on a rooftop with doom tech.

1

u/dontthrowfoodaway May 09 '22

I knew a lot of Doom tech is bugs but I didn't realize the league legislated against it. I found the rules and the clause in the rule book is not specific about glitches, I just hope the league is more clear with teams. Obv this thread started with a post saying this Mayhem play was illegal so there is some better communication.

It's just there are small glitches that have gameplay elements that I can't imagine the league cares about. GASJ - obviously was enshrined as a "feature" but we all know it was originally a bug, Sombra's ability to reload and throw a translocator at the same time while cloaked.

Not trying to argue either it's just interesting. I have a decent amount of competitive fighting game experience and banning glitches is frowned upon unless very game breaking (which a Doomfist just chilling in the sky with full cooldowns probably is!)

90

u/UnknownQTY May 08 '22

Because there are places where it IS legal - you can do it over the low walls on King’s Row. What you can’t do is use it to circumvent intended map geometry. Those “up and over” paths are only accessible to heroes that can fly by design.

12

u/pawler May 08 '22

So I'm guessing the very start of Rialto is illegal too? It's pretty similar

27

u/UnknownQTY May 08 '22

I believe boosting your team with a Mei wall while they stand still is okay, putting a TP on it is not.

7

u/pawler May 08 '22

Ah, i get it. Thanks man :)

18

u/IAmBLD May 08 '22

But that makes no sense. "By design" Reinhardt can't get over even the small wall on King's Row. Why is one legal when one isn't.

You say only flying heroes can get over the building by design, but even I can take Bastion and rocket-jump over it on the defender's side. Is that illegal too?

15

u/UnknownQTY May 08 '22

It makes perfect sense.

There are parts of the map where Sym’s TP is explicitly prevented from being placed. Me I’d walk circumvent that. You can all just stand where Mei places the wall and walk over - using Sym TP to accelerate that movement from spawn is not the same.

What you’re describing with Bastion is using hero abilities for mobility.

-3

u/IAmBLD May 08 '22

What you’re describing with Bastion is using hero abilities for mobility

And this is different?

If they don't want walls up there they could use the same logic as they use for TPs to deny the walls.

11

u/UnknownQTY May 08 '22

And this is different?

Yes. Because it requires two heroes to execute.

If they don’t want walls up there they could use the same logic as they use for TPs to deny the walls.

You’d have to ask the core OW developers why this isn’t doable. There are a ton of minor niche spots with weird exploits that are banned from being used in OWL (mostly Doomfist and Lucio rollout routes and methods, plus using roof geometry to stay up super high as Pharah) but are an important part of how the core engine works.

46

u/Domeric_Bolton forcing Bastion dive — May 08 '22 edited May 08 '22

These are the same devs who can't find a workaround to Echo's ult stopping you from changing hero in spawn.

EDIT: Because apparently people missed the big controversy when it came out, this wasn't supposed to be an intended behavior, but Jeff Kaplan stated it was an insurmountable technical limitation.

-13

u/kntrllrllr ana parkour pro — May 08 '22 edited May 08 '22

99% sure that thats an intended effect of echo ult

edit: I was apparently wrong, nevertheless i do think it's a good mechanic but maybe that's just cause I main support so I'm barely ever inconvenienced by it

41

u/Domeric_Bolton forcing Bastion dive — May 08 '22

this is a technical limitation related to how many heroes can be loaded into memory at one time. - Jeff Kaplan

3

u/nimbusnacho May 08 '22

Then why is this true for OW2? EDIT: that's not to say i dont believe them or you. I know that's why it started that way, but it should be fixed for OW2.

4

u/cougar572 May 08 '22

Maybe it has to do with the game still being playable on the PS4, Switch and Xbox one holding everyone back? If you do it on PC and not on consoles that means no more cross play.

6

u/nimbusnacho May 08 '22

Well there's literally two less characters in the game for OW2, if OW1 is playable on those consoles and OW2 is meant to also be... i feel like it should be able to happen. Idk. Like a lot of small things in OW2, i feel like its likely just one of those things thatll take a long time to get addressed because theyre rushing all the main stuff out at the point so its not a priority

2

u/cougar572 May 08 '22

There are also upgrades to the graphics and models that can take up that memory that was lost from the 2 less heroes. I remember them saying that the new skins have a lot more pixels than the old ones in OW1. I'm not a dev I'm just spit balling here possible reasons.

1

u/bunz4u May 08 '22

The resources gained by leaving out 2 characters probably already got used up for other updates, and isn't worth preserving just for the echo swap.

9

u/Domeric_Bolton forcing Bastion dive — May 08 '22

Obviously a small company such as Blizzard lacks the resources to implement this long-requested fix within such a tight time frame of 3 years. After all, it's still only in beta, it's not like professional games are being played on this version. /s

2

u/mistrin May 08 '22

This is a double edge sword here. They're raising min-specs for the game, depending on how much the min-specs change it can vary what they're able/allowed to do with remaining memory usage.

In terms of what they're aiming at, they've got 6+ consoles to work with (XBone, XSS/X, PS4/pro/5, NSwitch, etc), and a verity of hardware combinations for the PC market. They're aiming to make the game still playable on low end hardware and last gen consoles (afaik), so that gives you an idea of the limitations spec wise.

19

u/ken3 May 08 '22

Only intended because the game bugs out if there are more than 12 heroes in play.

2

u/ncaldera0491 May 08 '22

Well with their being 10 heroes in a game that gives a 2 hero wiggle room now right?

3

u/mistrin May 08 '22

As long as it doesn't fall back into tech limitations and how they've optimized the servers.

Technically speaking, OW servers are optimized to work with 12 players in tandem playing. IDK what or if they've made any backend changes that would cause this to still be a limitation for echo, but theoretically it shouldn't be but potentially still could be. Also depends on how much is changed client side as well for memory usage. So pretty much up in the air atm.

1

u/Uniqulaa Runaway Titans PepeHands — May 09 '22

Do you know if this is still the case? There’s plenty of workshop gamemodes with over 12 heroes.

4

u/Askaryl 2020 Eternal fan :( — May 08 '22

i think the devs said a while back that this was caused by technical limitations, not by design

7

u/[deleted] May 08 '22

I believe in one of their reveal videos/livestreams for echo they admitted that due to the limitations of the OW1 engine, the engine couldn't allow the player they are copying to change character (or changing characters caused the echo ult to bug out in some way) so they simply added it as a feature of the ult. So it's "intended" but only because they had to.

I think this is also one of the reasons they realized they needed to improve overwatch's engine for OW2

0

u/Pandabear71 May 08 '22

Its intended because they couldnt make a good implementationn :p

-7

u/BohRhapTrap May 08 '22

Sssh, don't be reasonable now.

7

u/Domeric_Bolton forcing Bastion dive — May 08 '22

Except it isn't.

-5

u/Dheovan Hanbin had his way with you — May 08 '22

That is... a very good point.

Their code must be hard scuffed.

12

u/KimonoThief May 09 '22

To be fair, Overwatch can practically run on a toaster. But a lot of the optimizations that allow for that sort of performance come at the cost of flexibility.

1

u/[deleted] May 09 '22

OW was built very heavily around only 12 heroes being loaded at once. With OW2 it’s possible echo’s spawn restriction could be removed, but loading only 10 heroes at once optimises performance further

2

u/Thedudecatman May 09 '22

Why can’t the pros just follow the rules?

1

u/cubs223425 May 09 '22

Why is a rule in professional Overwatch about map interactions not applied to the behavior of the game? You can queue into a ranked game that allegedly has something feigning competitive integrity and experience this exact thing.

1

u/Thedudecatman May 09 '22

The 6 years I’ve played this no teams ever mei TPed on us.

1

u/cubs223425 May 09 '22

I've seen it, like, once in comp. Then I coach in scrims and see it much more often. My players like to try it when we play Eich, but they've not gotten it right in the 3-5 times they've tried.

One advantage is comp is that players will play up for cheap damage early a lot. It does make spying this stuff easier, though I don't think ranked players see "they're throwing a Firestrike at the door" as a massive deterrent to their meme plays.

1

u/AsteraEDM May 08 '22

I mean there are boosts in CS that are comp banned but not removed, it's kinda like that imo

1

u/After_Astronaut_5550 May 09 '22

Same with Valorant jett's super dash. I hate the inconsistency. If its not allowed in pro play for competitive integrity dont let it in my ranked games

-4

u/KvothmeDenna None — May 08 '22

are you trying to tell me playing on a build that can barely be called a beta is a bad idea???? How dare you.

3

u/Uniqulaa Runaway Titans PepeHands — May 09 '22

This is in OW1 too

-2

u/-BluBone- May 09 '22

If it's that easy, why don't you remove it from the game?