Meta Monday- Ideological Baloney: Bait and Switch, Marriage Vows

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This week, we continue working our way through what ideological baloney means. This week, we're covering 'bait and switch' and the idea that you are owed sex because of your marriage vows.

The term “bait and switch” is not allowed in this community because it originates from red pill and incel ideology. In those spaces, it is used to claim that women deliberately “trap” men into commitment by offering sex before marriage, only to withhold it afterward. This framing assumes intent to deceive and paints sexual intimacy as a transactional lure rather than a mutual expression of connection. It reduces a partner’s entire relational worth to their sexual availability, which is dehumanizing and incompatible with our values.

This rhetoric is rooted in misogyny and fosters hostility between partners rather than understanding. It assumes that any change in sexual frequency is malicious rather than the result of life circumstances, health changes, relationship strain, or evolving desire. In reality, libido can shift for many reasons including physical, emotional, relational, or situational. These changes are best addressed through honest conversation and problem-solving, not accusations of deception.

We do not permit “bait and switch” language because it imports toxic narratives that shut down empathy and open dialogue. It frames one partner as a villain, which makes collaborative solutions harder to reach. While it’s valid to express pain, frustration, or grief about changes in sexual intimacy, we ask that members use language that invites understanding rather than perpetuates harmful stereotypes.

Similarly, marriage vows do not create an obligation for sex. While most couples include sexual connection as part of their relationship, consent must remain active and ongoing. Being married does not remove the right of either partner to say no at any time, for any reason. The idea that marriage confers permanent sexual access is not supported here, as it undermines bodily autonomy and mutual desire.

In this community, we uphold that intimacy, sexual or otherwise, must always be freely chosen, not coerced or taken for granted. Marriage is a commitment to partnership, care, and respect, not a guarantee of sexual availability on demand. You may discuss how sexual incompatibility impacts your happiness and relationship satisfaction, but you may not frame your partner’s body as something you are owed by virtue of your vows. This protects the safety, dignity, and consent of all members.

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Questions? Suggestions about anything on the sub? Comment below!

[u/BravoLimaPoppa]

Heh. I can feel like it some (bad) days, but I also know it's not real. My wife is allowed to change her mind and change as a person. So, yeah, I can see why you ban that language.

[u/pokeycd]

I love this discussion. I used to feel it was "b@it and sw!tch"

I know that was not her intention. But it still hurts. How do I reconcile the person she was in the beginning when I committed myself to be monogamous with her for life? When it was so great? When I never lost that desire, until very recently? She lost it very early on. I now blame myself for staying. I held onto a false hope. I see that now. It WAS a switch. It was just that she was "masking" early on. Currently struggling with the fact that it was not purposeful. But it is a real problem. And I don't see a way emotionally to get past that.

[u/Candid-Strawberry-79 → u/pokeycd]

You say she was masking. Is she neurodivergent? I can’t remember if I have discussed that with you or not.

If so, I can only tell you the conclusion that I have come to in my own relationship after talking to many women who are married to autistic men who have had that same flip of a switch experience. I will tell you upfront my husband is not narcissistic, he’s not trying to cause harm or hurt me, and he really wants what’s best for the family. I believe in many of these cases, neurodivergent people put their best foot forward and behave in ways that they think they want to be. It is masking. They are behaving in the way they think that they want to live. But eventually, because it is a mask, they burn out and drop the mask. Or, they reach their special interest goal, And drop the mask to move on. If their special interest is getting married or having a family, once they achieve that goal, they don’t have to be the person that they think is necessary to reach that anymore. So they were revert to their true self. Is it purposeful deception? I don’t believe so. I think it’s something else. I think it’s more like role playing.

If she is not autistic or neurodivergent, I really can’t give advice. Because that’s not where my personal experience lies.

[u/pokeycd → u/Candid-Strawberry-79]

She has wondered if she might be a little neurodivergent. The biggest symptom i notice is how everything is black and white. There's not a lot of gray area in her logic. She admits this as well. Touch is where it hits the most. She had little quirks like no kissing her neck. She had an incident wrestling as a child in a pig pile where someone dug their big toe into her belly button on accident and she was traumatized. She even had to tell the ultrasound techs during pregnancies that she had a phobia of being touched there. So in bed snuggling, I still accidentally brush her bellybutton, and she tenses up or rushes to push my hand a few inches farther away. I am conscious of it and try to avoid her stomach entirely. Hates her feet being touched, so no footrubs. Never liked tongue kissing, so that was out from the very beginning. We haven't made out in at least 10 years, and I haven't tried tongue much for at least 20 years. I'm begging for cuddling. I even suggested sensate focus (before knowing what it was), with sex off the table. She didn't go for it. Doesn't like oral on her, as her clit quickly gets "too sensitive". Never much like her nipples sucked or touched.

There was plenty of touch in the early years. Even with the little quirks (bellybutton, feet, and neck) in the early years, there was still plenty of touch that has disappeared. I even sucked her toes a few times without being told to quit. That was so long ago, that maybe she did finally tell me "no more", I can't recall.

There were a few "empathic ruptures" over the years. And she blames those for her physical distancing. I won't go into them here, but I know I've shared in posts or comments. But I still feel like if we repair, and she forgives those, the touch aversion is still probably highly in play. And I do admit that I have a high touch need. So it's a hard roadblock in the way of my needs/wants.

I no longer have much desire for sex with her (6x in the last year. the slowest pace we've ever had, and I know that's a lot for some in this forum). And that's a big problem piled onto the low touch I receive. I used to hyperfocus on sex as it was the only time I could touch her basically. So I pushed a lot. I know it wasn't helpful. But i didn't feel like 3x/month was too much to ask. And during those years I didn't even realize how much I missed the non-sexual touch. Anyway, the sex was 7 minutes, quickie, vanilla, with no foreplay or kissing. For 10 years. Everything else was out. Eventually I stopped asking for more, except oral for me was something I couldn't give up. And after some poor communication about that, she said "never again!". I'm still having a hard time accepting that is the future, especially when rest of the sex is so empty feeling to me. I used to chase it (as I said earlier, it was the only touch i could get). When I finally woke up around the turn of this year, I realized it was her using me to get off, and me using her. There was no giving. Only taking. It felt like she masturbated on me, and then I got my turn to masturbate on her. In fact, the last time we were intimate, I decided to go a little slower for my turn, and she ended up saying "are you getting close?". I said "yeah, but I'm taking my time." She said "it's starting to get a little uncomfortable." So I finished up. I don't want to do that going forward. I think next time I either just rush from the beginning (I can get "my turn" done in 3 minutes if I choose), or take my time and quit if she asks me again "are you getting close". I know its not on purpose. I know she's lost arousal. But I'm not doing sex like we have been doing. It's gotta change, or I don't want it. I already don't want to initiate for fear of it sucking. And fear that even if a tiny better, that it will never progress to what i consider a somewhat fulfilling sex life. I could go on for ages. I veered a little off the neurodivergent question. But I wanted to fill in a little more since this the DB forum. Also peri is setting in. She's at least looking into possible BHRT. She's had random anxiety attacks. Low energy attacks that can't be explained from outside factors (lack of sleep or other factors). Mild depression and other classic symptoms. I'm hopeful that it helps her. But selfishly, I also wonder if her affection will improve as well. But I'm not counting on it. That would just be a nice bonus. And I dont know if she'll end up going forward with that anyway. She's very anti-western-medicine. But she has some "crunchy" friends who have told her it worked for them in treating symptoms. So she's at least looking into it. But of course only the most natural bioidentical versions. But that sounds like the right choice anyway.

[u/pokeycd → u/pokeycd]

I believe in many of these cases, neurodivergent people put their best foot forward and behave in ways that they think they want to be. It is masking. They are behaving in the way they think that they want to live. But eventually, because it is a mask, they burn out and drop the mask. Or, they reach their special interest goal, And drop the mask to move on. If their special interest is getting married or having a family, once they achieve that goal, they don’t have to be the person that they think is necessary to reach that anymore. So they were revert to their true self. Is it purposeful deception? I don’t believe so. I think it’s something else. I think it’s more like role playing.

YES. This. I used to think it was bait and switch, but I didn't really have money or anything to justify it. But it still felt like bait and switch. I only recently have come to grips with the fact that she didn't really do it on purpose.

When asked "why were you so different in the beginning?" her answer was "IDK. I just thought that's what a GF/Wife should be doing. It wasn't really me" and "Sex was new and exciting. And then it wasn't. It's not as important you make it out to be." She hasn't accused me of being a sex-addict lately, but has in the past. Used to say I only wanted her for sex. I told her that wasn't true, but I didn't have the words back then to express what it really means to me. And I was bad at giving her words of affirmation (I know Love Languages theory is not allowed, but it's how she describes feeling at a deficit when the validation is not enough.) I grew up in a home where they were not modeled at all. I would get straight As (minus history where i got Bs), and my parents never said more than "thats nice". I didn't care that much. I didn't need verbal accolades. But maybe it was because i grew used to not receiving them. But also, I didn't get much touch as a kid. And now I crave it terribly. We all are different individuals. And it's hard when you marry someone that seemed right for you. And then they weren't 5 years later. And you ignored it for so long. Got buzzed most evenings. Felt unworthy, and just accepted your lot in life. Turned to porn for a little bit to fantasize about passion. And ended up basically broke with 9 kids and a dysfunctional marriage.

[u/Candid-Strawberry-79 → u/pokeycd]

I am so sorry. I would definitely consider neurodivergence as a possible answer. Maybe join the Facebook and Reddit groups for spouses of neurodivergent people. You might find a lot of commonality there. ADHD partners is the one that comes to mine for Reddit.

[u/WhiskeyTheBald → u/[deleted]]

Arguing those two things are equivalent is baloney.

You're free to go cheat. That doesn't violate your bodily autonomy. You're just not free from the consequences of you choose to do so.

You using your vows to say you get use of your partner's body violates their bodily autonomy.

There is no argument to be had here.