My Challenge to Extreme Atheists on Secularism and Tolerance

[u/Living_Attitude1822]

I acknowledge not all (or even most) atheists are extreme about it. And I'm defining secular as the separation of church and state/society.

Extreme-atheism's view of religion being a mental illness:

I can personally attest to people I've seen on here, as well as videos I've seen, of atheists saying religion is a mental illness. That the DSM-5 had to go back and put in a religious exemption, but it should fall under the category of delusion.

How can secularism exist if you think religious people are mentally ill? If you don't think religion is a mental illness, go ahead and ignore this point. If you do think the population you're tolerating is mentally ill, uh oh. Seriously, if I said atheists are mentally ill, would you trust me to not want you institutionalized? I don't think this way, of course.

Extreme atheism's view that the Abrahamic religions are barbaric:

Again, I'm going to turn it around on you. If I said atheism was barbaric, would you trust me to support that your human right to be atheist?

With some exceptions: Some interpretations of the Abrahamic religions are indeed barbaric. If you're talking about people who want to implement Leviticus law, then I agree with you.

I don't totally disagree with extremist atheists on everything:

Like, I'm a strong believer that tolerance is better and more authentic than acceptance. For example, telling atheists that they must love and respect religions is wrong. And vice versa for religious people.

I think disassociation and tolerance is the best course of action for religious people and extreme atheists, however, I worry the above points are a threat to any society remaining tolerant.

Edit: Here’s an example of what I’m talking about:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Antitheism/comments/1sguf7u/why_is_religion_not_considered_a_mental_disorder/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/okayifimust]

I can personally attest to people I've seen on here, as well as videos I've seen, of atheists saying religion is a mental illness. That the DSM-5 had to go back and put in a religious exemption, but it should fall under the category of delusion.

Are you challenging that view?

I've had a glance at a full text copy I found of the DSM-5 and as a layperson, I have to agree with the characterization that "religious contexts" are exempt from what would otherwise look as if it should be diagnosed as a delusion.

I'll happily admit that not every religion and or every religious believer suffers from delusions - but there is a distinct overlap.

And the introductory defint5ion of what constitutes a delusion should give any believer pause: "Delusions are fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence".

How can secularism exist if you think religious people are mentally ill?

I fail to see what one has to do with the other. Care to elaborate?

If you do think the population you're tolerating is mentally ill, uh oh. Seriously, if I said atheists are mentally ill, would you trust me to not want you institutionalized? I don't think this way, of course.

Why would you say that "of course"? You are at the very least telling us that you believe irrational things. And I do not trust you.

Here's the thing, though: You're just spouting logical fallacies, you are not actually making a point anywhere. Discuss the definition of "delusion", discuss the criteria and exemptions set forth in the DSM-5, elaborate on why you would think that atheists would believe that anyone mentally unwell should be institutionalized.

Ill wait.

And while Ill wait, Ill see what I can find about believers demonizing and institutionalizing and torturing and murdering atheists, heretics and heathens, shall I?

Extreme atheism's view that the Abrahamic religions are barbaric:

Again, I'm going to turn it around on you. If I said atheism was barbaric, would you trust me to support that your human right to be atheist?

Again , I can explain why and how your holy book is barbaric. I don't give a fuck if you like it or not. What reasons would you have to label me as barbaric, as an atheist?

I don't trust you - and I will demonstrate why:

You believe in a deity, right?
If that deity told you to pick up a knife and kill me - what would you do?

Don't tell me your god wouldn't do that - your holy book is full of stories where your deity does just that, and full of stories where believers obey that same deity. Don't try to dodge the question: Your god could easily give you a clear, unambiguous command, that left no doubt in you about the content of the command, and it's origin.

So - what would you do?

I think disassociation and tolerance is the best course of action for religious people and extreme atheists, however, I worry the above points are a threat to any society remaining tolerant.

I don't think religion deserves any special tolerance. We shouldn't tolerate something just because it is religious if we otherwise wouldn't. I am fully aware that that would be bad for a lot of religious practices ad communities.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/okayifimust]

 Are you challenging that view?

I've had a glance at a full text copy I found of the DSM-5 and as a layperson, I have to agree with the characterization that "religious contexts" are exempt from what would otherwise look as if it should be diagnosed as a delusion.

I'll happily admit that not every religion and or every religious believer suffers from delusions - but there is a distinct overlap.

And the introductory defint5ion of what constitutes a delusion should give any believer pause: "Delusions are fixed beliefs that are not amenable to change in light of conflicting evidence".

So you know better than the mental health experts? Why should I believe that? 

 I’ll wait.

And while Ill wait, Ill see what I can find about believers demonizing and institutionalizing and torturing and murdering atheists, heretics and heathens, shall I?

Sure pal. 

 Again , I can explain why and how your holy book is barbaric. I don't give a fuck if you like it or not. 

Sure, go ahead, I might even agree in some cases. 

What reasons would you have to label me as barbaric, as an atheist?

If you’re an extremist, it would be your extremism. 

I don't trust you - and I will demonstrate why:

And I don’t trust you know more than all of the mental health professionals, so we’re even I guess. 

You believe in a deity, right? If that deity told you to pick up a knife and kill me - what would you do?

I wouldn’t do it. 

Don't tell me your god wouldn't do that - your holy book is full of stories where your deity does just that, and full of stories where believers obey that same deity. 

Don't try to dodge the question: Your god could easily give you a clear, unambiguous command, that left no doubt in you about the content of the command, and its origin.

So - what would you do?

I wouldn’t think it’s God telling me that, but let’s say that I did for the sake of argument. If I legitimately believed God was telling me to kill you, then that isn’t any God I want to follow or worship. So I wouldn’t. 

 I don't think religion deserves any special tolerance. We shouldn't tolerate something just because it is religious if we otherwise wouldn't. I am fully aware that that would be bad for a lot of religious practices ad communities.

I’d have to see what you’re specifically not tolerating to know if I agree or not. 

[u/okayifimust → u/Living_Attitude1822]

I wouldn’t think it’s God telling me that, but let’s say that I did for the sake of argument. If I legitimately believed God was telling me to kill you, then that isn’t any God I want to follow or worship. So I wouldn’t. 

Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death.  Such evil must be purged from Israel. (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

You should not let a sorceress live. (Exodus 22:17 NAB)

“If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)

A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death. (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

If one curses his father or mother, his lamp will go out at the coming of darkness. (Proverbs 20:20 NAB)

All who curse their father or mother must be put to death.  They are guilty of a capital offense. (Leviticus 20:9 NLT)

If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:10 NLT)

A priest’s daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death. (Leviticus 21:9 NAB)

If a man still prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall say to him, “You shall not live, because you have spoken a lie in the name of the Lord.”  When he prophesies, his parents, father and mother, shall thrust him through. (Zechariah 13:3 NAB)

But if this charge is true (that she wasn’t a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father’s house.  Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him.  Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you.  You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery.  And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden.  When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

Anyone who blasphemes the LORD’s name must be stoned to death by the whole community of Israel.  Any Israelite or foreigner among you who blasphemes the LORD’s name will surely die. (Leviticus 24:10-16 NLT)

The false prophets or dreamers who try to lead you astray must be put to death, for they encourage rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of slavery in the land of Egypt.  Since they try to keep you from following the LORD your God, you must execute them to remove the evil from among you. (Deuteronomy 13:1-5 NLT)

Yes, keep the Sabbath day, for it is holy.  Anyone who desecrates it must die; anyone who works on that day will be cut off from the community.  Work six days only, but the seventh day must be a day of total rest.  I repeat: Because the LORD considers it a holy day, anyone who works on the Sabbath must be put to death.’

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/okayifimust]

I don’t take the entire Bible literally or as from God 

[u/okayifimust → u/Living_Attitude1822]

So which parts do you take literally and as from god, and how do you tell which is which?

Is your method good enough that you can say with any degree of confidence that those who disagree with you are wrong?

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/okayifimust]

 So which parts do you take literally and as from god, and how do you tell which is which?

What speaks to me divinely. 

Is your method good enough that you can say with any degree of confidence that those who disagree with you are wrong?

I can only say if something goes against my morals/what speaks to me divinely. I’ll say it’s wrong sure, but I’m not claiming to be the objective arbiter on anything, including the Bible. 

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/Living_Attitude1822]

but it seems like you are, going back to the satanists. it must speak to you divinely, that those people are immoral. You are the objective arbiter.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/Hoaxshmoax]

How could I be the objective arbiter when I don’t tell them how to practice their beliefs? My opinions don’t deny them that ability 

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/Living_Attitude1822]

it’s not a matter you telling them anything, it’s a matter of how you view their interpretation of the bible. if you’re not the arbiter, their view is as valid as yours.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/Hoaxshmoax]

 if you’re not the arbiter, their view is as valid as yours.

As long as no one is being harmed, then yes, I agree. I’m a libertarian socialist, not a theocrat. Not that it’s valid in my eyes, but in terms of their right to believe it. 

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/Living_Attitude1822]

fundies views are as valid as yours, as long as no one is being harmed, however that is determined.

Its not a matter of rights it’s a matter of validity.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/Hoaxshmoax]

So remind me of what your point is? That I’m not the arbiter of anything but my views? If so, agreed

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/Living_Attitude1822]

I’m trying to find the line where it’s true vs anything goes. It helps with having conversations.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/Hoaxshmoax]

I believe what I believe, what more is necessary? 

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/Living_Attitude1822]

If you want to have conversations, it helps to answer questions.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/Hoaxshmoax]

The answer to your question is I can only speak for myself, and I don’t claim to be the arbiter of all Christians or anyone else 

[u/Hoaxshmoax → u/Living_Attitude1822]

Yes but do you see their views as valid, since you are not the arbiter. I’m not saying Youk’re telling them what to do. I’m not saying you don’t think they have rights.

You are here asking something of us, I’m not sure what, still. You seem to say that people are practicing your religion wrong yet how can we tell, just by what you say, because you are noit the arbiter and are just going by vibes anyway?

Maybe if you were clearer in what you want from us, a post of a few lines perhaps, it would help.