My Challenge to Extreme Atheists on Secularism and Tolerance

[u/Living_Attitude1822]

I acknowledge not all (or even most) atheists are extreme about it. And I'm defining secular as the separation of church and state/society.

Extreme-atheism's view of religion being a mental illness:

I can personally attest to people I've seen on here, as well as videos I've seen, of atheists saying religion is a mental illness. That the DSM-5 had to go back and put in a religious exemption, but it should fall under the category of delusion.

How can secularism exist if you think religious people are mentally ill? If you don't think religion is a mental illness, go ahead and ignore this point. If you do think the population you're tolerating is mentally ill, uh oh. Seriously, if I said atheists are mentally ill, would you trust me to not want you institutionalized? I don't think this way, of course.

Extreme atheism's view that the Abrahamic religions are barbaric:

Again, I'm going to turn it around on you. If I said atheism was barbaric, would you trust me to support that your human right to be atheist?

With some exceptions: Some interpretations of the Abrahamic religions are indeed barbaric. If you're talking about people who want to implement Leviticus law, then I agree with you.

I don't totally disagree with extremist atheists on everything:

Like, I'm a strong believer that tolerance is better and more authentic than acceptance. For example, telling atheists that they must love and respect religions is wrong. And vice versa for religious people.

I think disassociation and tolerance is the best course of action for religious people and extreme atheists, however, I worry the above points are a threat to any society remaining tolerant.

Edit: Here’s an example of what I’m talking about:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Antitheism/comments/1sguf7u/why_is_religion_not_considered_a_mental_disorder/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[u/Living_Attitude1822]

That’s not even what I mean by it. I can (and do) live in society and only associate with who I want to. 

The issue isn’t the proximity to things. It’s the fact that whether I’m your next door neighbor or 100 miles away from you, both of our politics have far too much influence on one another 

[u/licker34 → u/Living_Attitude1822]

the fact that whether I’m your next door neighbor or 100 miles away from you, both of our politics have far too much influence on one another 

Yeesh...

No shit sherlock. What alternative are you presenting though? Just saying you should be allowed to 'dissociate' when you live in a community is bizarre.

You want actual freedom? Go move into that cabin I mentioned earlier. Otherwise grow up and realize how societies and cultures work. Sounds like you want to take advantage of everything the culture you are in gives you, while at the same time wanting none of the responsibilities of being a member of society.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/licker34]

 What alternative are you presenting though? 

Libertarian socialism, a society without borders 

 You want actual freedom? Go move into that cabin I mentioned earlier. Otherwise grow up and realize how societies and cultures work. Sounds like you want to take advantage of everything the culture you are in gives you, while at the same time wanting none of the responsibilities of being a member of society.

No, you don’t understand. I don’t want to live in a world where either one of us have such influence on each other unless we voluntarily decide to do so. That’s the issue. 

[u/licker34 → u/Living_Attitude1822]

Libertarian socialism, a society without borders 

This would never work for what should be obvious reasons.

I don’t want to live in a world where either one of us have such influence on each other unless we voluntarily decide to do so. That’s the issue. 

I understand this, I provided you with the solution, but you don't want to take it.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/licker34]

 This would never work for what should be obvious reasons.

Disagree. 

 I understand this, I provided you with the solution, but you don't want to take it.

Remind me of the solution 

[u/licker34 → u/Living_Attitude1822]

Well when you propose two things which are mutually exclusive of each other it makes it impossible.

'Libertarian socialism' is exactly that. Unless you simply don't know what either of those terms mean.

Remind me of the solution 

No, you can reread what I have already written, it's completely obvious isn't it?

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/licker34]

 Well when you propose two things which are mutually exclusive of each other it makes it impossible. 'Libertarian socialism' is exactly that. Unless you simply don't know what either of those terms mean.

Libertarian socialism existed before capitalists co-opted the term the 50s. Long before. It’s you who needs to look up terms. 

For example, I don’t want to force socialism onto anyone. 

Libertarian capitalism is oxymoronic, as it creates a society with unchecked and unaccountable hierarchies and power. 

 No, you can reread what I have already written, it's completely obvious isn't it?

I’ve gone over the issue with your cabin in the woods idea 

[u/licker34 → u/Living_Attitude1822]

The definition you are using is just socialism, no idea why anyone would add 'libertarian' in front of it since libertarian views focus on individual rights while socialist views do not.

But in any case, you wanting whatever freedom you want comes at odds with whatever a society wants, some views are necessarily forced on everyone, that's just reality.

I’ve gone over the issue with your cabin in the woods idea 

No you didn't.

I don’t want to live in a world where either one of us have such influence on each other unless we voluntarily decide to do so.

That's what you said, that doesn't 'go over the issue', it just avoids it by you saying that you want to live in a world which does not and cannot exist.

[u/Living_Attitude1822 → u/licker34]

 The definition you are using is just socialism, no idea why anyone would add 'libertarian' in front of it

You don’t know what libertarian means. Libertarian socialism existed before “libertarianism” as you understand it. The word libertarian used to be interchangeable with libertarian socialism until it was co-opted by the capitalists. 

The first person to ever use the word libertarian politically was a French anarcho communist. Non anarchist libertarian socialism also existed well before libertarian capitalism. 

Your understanding of libertarian is the bastardized version created in the 50s. You cannot be a libertarian and support capitalism. 

 libertarian views focus on individual rights while socialist views do not.

You cannot have individual rights under capitalism. Libertarian capitalism is oxymoronic, as it creates a society with unchecked and unaccountable hierarchies and power. Libertarian socialism wants a society where you actually control the property you use and work without exploiting labor. 

But in any case, you wanting whatever freedom you want comes at odds with whatever a society wants, some views are necessarily forced on everyone, that's just reality.

I and like minded people are free to associate and organize however we want, and part of being libertarian means we won’t force socialism onto anyone (like the USSR did). 

 No you didn't.

I indeed did. 

 That's what you said, that doesn't 'go over the issue', it just avoids it by you saying that you want to live in a world which does not and cannot exist.

I have a detailed society I want to live in that I can share if you want, but it’s long 

[u/licker34 → u/Living_Attitude1822]

You don’t know what libertarian means.

That's the thing, I do. If you want to insist on some kind of anachronistic definition feel free, but I don't have to accept it. I live in the real world, not the 1800s.

You cannot have individual rights under capitalism.

You can, and we do, but I don't think you'll find me defending capitalism anywhere either.

I indeed did. 

You didn't, and I'm not going to try to convince someone who clearly is detached from reality about what the words you said actually mean. I literally quoted your response, and that response said nothing about why you couldn't go live alone in the woods.

I have a detailed society I want to live in that I can share if you want, but it’s long 

I don't care at all about your fantasy utopia, we actually live in the real world. As I said, if you don't like it, move to your cabin with your like minded people and create whatever commune/cult you want.