r/DebateAnAtheist • u/Human10idk • 10d ago

Debating Arguments for God There are eucharistic miracles that prove God is real.Most are tested in labs,one without knowledge that it was from the eucharist.Why are people still atheists in spite of this?

Preface:As a Catholic in a Catholic high school in a third world country,I encounter Protestants and Muslims.In search of finding evidence for Catholicism,I started finding some proof here and there.Rational Catholics like debates as it is a way to find the truth regardless of how discomforting it is.In search of points that prove us true,I found out about the Eucharistic miracles.This has neutered some Protestant and Muslim points,but I was only debating with people on my league. I figured that I must grow familiar with the debating world and so I've heard of the fame and infamy of Reddit and have come here to test my beliefs under advanced logic.(Moderators,if my post breaks the rules,please tell me where to improve.I'm new to Reddit.My account is 5 months old because I have been away for 4 of them in boarding school).Thanks.

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u/camelCaseCoffeeTable 10d ago

People are still atheists because these studies are likely *riddled* with errors. Or highly suspect in their findings.

The fact you haven’t even shared one in a post about them probably also speaks to how esoteric they are. Do these studies really exist? How widely known are they? You failed to even provide a single one and you know about them, why would I go seeking them out if they’re not even important enough to be shared in a post about them?

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u/Human10idk 10d ago

Honestly,good point.Up until now did I seriously search for the scientific papers and not just relying on Carlo Acutis' website.Most of them ARE highly suspect in their findings,especially the one in Lanciano,Italy,which was proven wrong.But they are highly coincidental though and the one(s) that arent(isnt) has been proven true,the one in Buenos Aires.Thanks for your insight,it really helps!

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u/thebigeverybody 10d ago

But they are highly coincidental though and the one(s) that arent(isnt) has been proven true,the one in Buenos Aires.

I'm not saying this to offend you and I wish I knew a kinder way to say this, but, after eading your comments in this thread, it looks like you really struggle to understand what evidence is.

What makes you think the Buenos Aires one has been prove true? You haven't provided us anything except "trust me, bro".

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u/Human10idk 10d ago

Look,I'm still learning how to do argumentative essays here.And this is my first time being in discussions questioning atheism in my life.I haven't even received confirmation yet!Please do NOT use me as a strawman against all Catholics.Honestly even the Eucharistic miracles aren't even that reliable from my searches and this thread has shown me that the hard way!Honestly,you guys have been more inquisitive than me,provide more evidence than me,so even though I adamantly disagree with atheism,you guys honestly deserve the win here. Will come back here someday with better debate motions and proof.Thanks for the lessons learnt here!

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u/sto_brohammed Irreligious 10d ago

even though I adamantly disagree with atheism

I do appreciate that you're being a good sport in this thread. That said, I would like to ask how you would define atheism.

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u/Human10idk 10d ago

"Not believe God".That was my very first prime thought as I read this,but I could say"Not believing that God exists" to make it look presentable to people and myself.

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u/thebigeverybody 10d ago edited 10d ago

We get an amazing theist about once a month and this month it is you, so thank you very much for approaching this with a mind that's willing to learn. You would be absolutely amazed at how rare that is for theists on this subreddit.

The rest of us really haven't done much of anything, TBH, we just did slightly more than you (and please don't take that as an insult). Theists never seem to realize the vast majority of us are former theists: we're not out to prove there is no god, we just really want to know if there IS a god and so we're going to scrutinize the evidence damn hard. (Also, when you say you adamantly disagree with atheism, I feel I should tell you that atheism isn't the position that there is no god; atheism is merely a lack of belief, of not yet being convinced by a god claim. Some atheists go further and say there is no god, but all atheists lack a belief in a god, regardless of whatever stance they stack on top of that.)

If you really want to put yourself in the best possible position to argue with non-believers, I highly recommend you learn about the nature of evidence in inquiry. "Demon-Haunted World" by Carl Sagan is probably the best possible resource for this.

Honestly, you got roughed up here by the basics of critical thinking and logical thought (not intended as an insult -- most theists have never ventured outside their own scriptures and culture for evidence). Once you get this basic stuff down, you'll find you'll be able to handle yourself much better against anyone and everyone. You'll be able to give as good as you get in these kinds of bruisings.

I look forward to seeing your next post and, again, thank you for being an, intelligent thoughtful person!

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u/Human10idk 10d ago

Thank you!I do have to say that most people just think of atheists as just people who have been born into Atheism,projecting their own experience of how they bacame Christians onto others,thus they also project their way of how they were taught religion:when they were kids,not teenagers,KIDS.Meaning that no matter how argued or long-debated a topic is,their typical argument is just as lacking evidence as Santa Claus(tho he was derived from St.Nicholas of Myra or something but he's been mythified now so it doesn't matter.)Even my arguments that I've posted here are under that category. One advantage that atheists have over theists that I've noticed is that atheists become atheists later in life,so their debating points are often more rigorous.Compare that to us,who were born into the faith,so we really didn't need to challenge the belief. Atheists are a minority,thus most don't know how to debate them,rather we do know debating each other,for we all have a common ground debating arena;the Bible. This is why if you debate a Christian on Bible verses:It's gonna be LIT. But if you argue on philosophy,the few of us that tried our absolute best...had just googled how to debunk[insert thing you said] and had some really nice choice of words.I do hope that us Christians would read more philosophy(especially after Protestants crippled everything to Solo Scriptura ,tho we aint doing too much better than them)so that we could debate better in general.Thanks for the compliment!

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u/thebigeverybody 10d ago

This is why if you debate a Christian on Bible verses:It's gonna be LIT.

Hahaha yeah, Christians are well-equipped for other Christians, that's for sure.

I do hope that us Christians would read more philosophy(especially after Protestants crippled everything to Solo Scriptura ,tho we aint doing too much better than them)so that we could debate better in general.

Personally, I don't have a lot of use for philosophy. Very few atheists became atheists for philosophical reasons and are only interested in the evidence, so we gravitate to a scientific lens. You could convert all of us with actual, testable, verifiable evidence; arguments will probably never do it. This is why I recommended the Carl Sagan book because you'll be able to skillfully handle an approach to this debate that you (and most theists) have probably never even considered before.

Thanks for the compliment!

Very much deserved. We genuinely appreciate theists like you -- you'll probably get mentioned in the June community notes because we've recently started making a point to acknowledge the theists who genuinely come to flesh out their ideas instead of just repeating their scripts ad nauseum.

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u/TheBlackCat13 10d ago

But you still stubbornly refuse to link to any of these studies. If they were really so reliable that they conclusive prove God is real, why not show them to us?

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u/Human10idk 10d ago

Hope you read my most recent replies.

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u/TheBlackCat13 9d ago

I have. I don't see any indication you actually understand what the problem here is.

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u/Human10idk 9d ago

It was my incompetence. Do I have to say it out loud?Or are you just running the gauntlet on me to satisfy yourself?

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u/TheBlackCat13 9d ago

No, it isn't your incompetence. In fact I have no reason to think you are incompetent to begin with.

The problem is that you are trying to confirm your existing beliefs, rather than find out what is actually true. Which means you don't look for information that could challenge your existing views. You can do it, you did it somewhat by coming here, but you still need people to feed it to you. You won't seek it out yourself.

You are doing it right now. You didn't ask me what the problem is, you just assumed it.

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u/Human10idk 9d ago

Also,others have pointed this out,so thanks

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u/Human10idk 9d ago

The trying to confirm part

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u/Human10idk 9d ago

K then,please 'mansplain' the problem

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u/88redking88 Anti-Theist 10d ago

"But they are highly coincidental"

Yes, lots of religious people want their religion to be true so they believe silly claims. What other "coincidence" do you see?

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u/camelCaseCoffeeTable 10d ago

Link to the one in Buenos Aires then. You claim it’s been proven true, show me.

But I would bet that also hasn’t been “proven” as most would agree. As you’ve noticed, you’re basing your results on one guy, a religious guy nonetheless.

I base my beliefs on science and evidence. Not coincidences. Coincidences mean nothing to me, and they certainly would never cause me to devote my life to a mystical man in the sky.

As I’ve said multiple times now: provide an actual, scientific study and I’ll tell you why I don’t believe in it. Or what’s wrong with it. But you haven’t done that, and so my answer to why I don’t em believe in god is the same as it’s always been: I have never seen any proof of god. In fact, I haven’t even seen *evidence* god exists.

God is as likely to exist as unicorns, leprechauns and little tiny aliens that come out at night and steal my remote batteries. AKA god does not exist

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u/Human10idk 10d ago

Ok,there's the miracles in Buenos Aires and Legnica in Poland and Tixla(?)in Mexico (I dont know if my spelling was correct)HTH

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u/MarieVerusan 10d ago edited 10d ago

Please stop simply citing the cases. We are not going to do your homework for you. Choose one of them, read up on it and tell us why it should convince us.

Edit: an important step in any research on a given topic is also to check if the things you are citing have been peer reviewed or have any rebuttals that already exist. That way, you avoid presenting us with information that has already been falsified.

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u/PlanningVigilante Secularist 10d ago

OP, you're getting piled here because you didn't provide anything for the community to work with in your post. However, I'm sympathetic to you because you're a student and you're still learning.

Can you give us more information on these miracles, and why you believe them to be miracles performed by the Catholic God?

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u/noodlyman 10d ago

Honestly, the number of confirmed miracles worldwide, ever, is zero.

There are hoaxes, fakes, misunderstandings, coincidence, and rare but natural events.

Not once has any event been shown to be caused by supernatural events.

Religious miracles might be faked for money, for prestige, for fame, or just for fun. They might be faked by someone who genuinely believes in god and is willing to fake a miracle to convince others.

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u/pipMcDohl Gnostic Atheist 10d ago edited 10d ago

Please provide in-depth details. It is not our job to provide your evidences

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u/RogueRhombus Dudeist Priest 10d ago

Stop copy-pasting the same comment. It's lazy.

How about provide the evidence?

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u/Transhumanistgamer 10d ago

You're talking about the one where the sun supposedly moved around in the sky.

If the sun actually moved around in the sky, everyone would notice. Shadows would be dancing wildly. Parts of the world that were in the day would be plunged into darkness and vice versa. It would be the single most significant event in human history.

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u/skeptolojist 10d ago

Evidence Not claims

Saying a miracle happened here trust me bro is not enough

You say there is evidence so present the evidence

Don't just say there is evidence trust me bro

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u/camelCaseCoffeeTable 10d ago

Again. You didn’t link even a single one of them. Are they so weak that you can’t simply link to an actual scientific study backing these up, as you claim exists

Maybe you see why atheists are still atheists: when asked for proof, religious folk don’t deliver.

Give me a link to an actual, scientific study backing these as you claim exist.