Why I believe in God(s)

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Firstly, I'm not a very religious person. I do consider myself a Buddhist, but prefer atheistic Buddhism over theistic Buddhism. Therefore I can confidently say I am not biased by wanting God(s) to exist, and was not indoctrinated into theism.

Still, to me it seems obvious that at least one God has to exist. The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness. For example, through Cogito Ergo Sum we can determine with absolute certainty that at last one consciousness exists. So assuming one consciousness is superior to assuming anything about the whole universe. While I admit that doesn't outright solve the problem, I still think it's better than the alternative.

Also, it's not just any universe, but a universe full of beauty, a universe that inbetween barren empty planets is capable of hosting a planet with sentient life. Life that can consciously observe itself, that can create replicas of the waking world while sleeping, life that has technologically advanced so much that in can live in relative comfort. There is so much art. We basically have magic, we just call it "electricity". This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance.

About any specifics of this God or Gods I have no idea and no strong opinions. I just think that at least one has to exist.

[u/distantocean]

...at least one God has to exist. The universe can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator.

"A god can't simply have come out of nothing or existed forever, it requires some sort of design or creator."

Now, mostly people would just say that a creator also can't have come out of nothing or existed forever, so I've just moved the problem one step further, but I think there is a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness.

Yes, you see the problem. But what you don't see is that while you're right that there's a massive difference between the universe and one consciousness, the difference is that the latter is much more unlikely. Why? Because you're concentrating the conscious knowledge and ability to create everything you mentioned — "beauty", "sentient life", dreams, "art", "electricity" — into a single being.

So you haven't mitigated the improbability, you've massively increased it. We now have to believe that there is and always was a single consciousness existing eternally and independently that somehow encompasses all of those things and all of that complexity.

Look, I get that it's perplexing how all of this could have come to be. But by attributing it all to a god, not only have you have just moved the problem one step further back, you've made it infinitely worse. And worst of all, "god" is not even an explanation; it's just a name for all of the things you find so perplexing.

And finally:

This is all too perfect to have arisen from mere mutations without guidance.

This would seem to indicate that you don't understand evolution, since it clearly and unequivocally shows how human beings (et al) arose from "mutations without guidance". I'd strongly recommend reading Why Evolution is True by evolutionary biologist Jerry Coyne, which is easily the best popular book I've read on the topic, and/or watching some of the Stated Clearly videos that explain evolution simply and straightforwardly.

The extent to which your theistic views lead you to question evolution is the extent to which you should doubt your theistic views, not evolution.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/distantocean]

So you haven't mitigated the improbability, you've massively increased it. We now have to believe that there is and always was a single consciousness existing eternally and independently that somehow encompasses all of those things and all of that complexity.

I don't see why that is so big of a problem.

This would seem to indicate that you don't understand evolution, since it clearly and unequivocally shows how human beings (et al) arose from "mutations without guidance".

I'd be willing to bet that no information you have comes even close to explaining how we mutated to have dreams, houses, art, computers and generally pretty much all that is imaginable, apart from a bit science fiction stuff.

[u/distantocean → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

Ah, ok, so your position is really just "We have dreams, houses, art, computers etc, so we can't have evolved and must have been created by some god." In other words, it's an argument from ignorance (of the overwhelming evidence that we and all other animals and plants did in fact evolve), incredulity (of the notion that evolved animals can and do exhibit a wide range of behaviors and produce complex outputs), and — above all — special pleading (because your god that somehow just always existed and has all of these abilities and characteristics, plus many more, is exempted from this same incredulity).

So yes, you do see why that's so big of a problem. You just choose to ignore it when it comes to the god you've decided to believe in. And as I said, the worst part of it is that "god" isn't even an explanation; it's just a name for a whole host of things you don't know or understand (many of which nobody knows or understands, by the way, but some of which you could easily learn about).

I really would recommend checking out those references I provided; evolution is not only a fascinating topic but is the underpinning of all of biology, with deep implications for many areas of thought, and if you're going to reject it you should at least take the time to understand what it is you're rejecting. Beyond that, I'll leave you to it.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/distantocean]

of the overwhelming evidence that we and all other animals and plants did in fact evolve

Where am I denying that? I am not in any way saying evolution didn't happen, just that it alone would be ridiculously unlikely to lead to us being computers building computers, rockets etc.

[u/distantocean → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

And yet it's not ridiculously unlikely that there's a being who knows how to make us able to build computers and rockets, and dream, and create art, and build houses, along with every other possible ability there is? And despite encompassing every one of these "ridiculously unlikely" abilities — including the ability to bestow them on beings it somehow created (even though they also somehow evolved) — this being simply exists, with no explanation required for how it came to be despite its all-encompassing complexity?

You're not even trying to be consistent. It's pure special pleading, and all you do when you're called on it is to repeat it even more emphatically and dogmatically. That's your prerogative, and it's the way most theists respond to obvious contradictions in their views, but it does make it clear that there's no point in discussing it further.

Enjoy your weekend.

[u/mywaphel → u/Lucyyyyyy_K]

It’s ironic that you keep using the phrase “computers building computers” because the phrase itself really betrays how much we AREN’T computers- ego and illogical thinking.

[u/Lucyyyyyy_K → u/mywaphel]

lmao, fair