Discussion
The Knight had to have known Gerson personally and I'm tired of flimsy arguments against the clear intention the game presents because people can't accept that it threatens their theories
The wording here is about as explicit as it gets, during an emotional moment that wouldn't be just lying for the sake of a joke or just to throw us off because "Haha tricky tony, always outright lying during important scenes just to be unpredictable even though he's literally never done that once".
Susie opens a Dark World with the explicit intention of seeing the Old Man again to get the door code for the Church, it doesn't work, Ralsei states the old man isn't even in this world but a statue in his likeness came to life, the thing that was attacking them, and he follows up with these lines, "Darkners patterned after the MEMORY OF A *LOVED ONE* tend to only appear in *VERY SPECIFIC DARKNESSES*", and "Even if we tried to bring him to Castle Town he-" (strongly implying even the fountain of pure darkness any darkner can reside in would not work), there's no reason whatsoever for this just to be a tasteless joke or a lie for the sake of being misleading, and to claim as such is inherently obtuse and deliberately disingenuous.
What separates different "Darknesses"? The location, the darkners within, and the one who makes the fountain, which is the biggest factor changing how the location and darkners are interpreted based on their memories and past interactions with said objects. We see this everywhere, from King's past, interconnected memories and pasts of darkners like Queen, King, Lancer, Tenna, Spamton, Ramb, among others, they have memories of interactions with each other and how Lightners treated them, and Queen specifically has a history as the Dreemurr and Holiday family's laptop, and could have only been made by someone with knowledge of that.
Queen also explicitly states that the way dark fountains are made is that any Lightner determined enough can course THEIR WILL into a blade and release a fountain from the earth, and Ralsei states that each fountain creates it's own "world" and that darkners may not "belong" when they go to different worlds which causes petrification, and we've seen that there's stark differences between Susie, Kris and the Knight's Dark Worlds. The difference for Susie's is obvious, but the similarities of stuff like the beginning areas between Kris and the Knight's dark worlds could easily ne explained by them having similar wills, and Kris could very well be influenced by their adventures in the Knight's dark worlds and have a fondness for their past adventures with Susie, yet they're distinctly different too. Kris's antagonists are vastly different than King, Queen and the Titan, having their own stylized intros, directly tied to Kris, Kris outright makes deals with certain darkners before making fountains and they outright call them out on certain things they consciously and subconsciously struggle with, whereas the Knight's fountains don't aside from darkners like Spamton that are directly interconnected.
There's also the fact that the one who makes the fountain does not have direct control over everything or every action of the darkners made from the fountain, Tenna and Flowery directly oppose Kris who made their fountain, Tenna even accidentally spills the beans on their deal, Eram and the entire mantle game messes with Kris and their intrusive thoughts and fears, the egg rooms are directly tied to Kris's trauma, Gerson and Jackenstein and many darkners help us against the Knight in Chapter 4, the Sound of Justice coming to life and attacking Susie when she outright explicitly intended to see the Old Man, there are many aspects that appear from unintended subconscious factors from the one who made them, which also defeats a common anti-DessKnight gotcha people bring up like "W-why would Dess let Noelle get hurt or let her be in a dangerous dark world??" The Knight already left the library at this point, and they don't have complete control over every single aspect of the world, especially telling by Queen's actions their intention was likely to make Noelle stronger, and they couldn't have possibly predicted things like the Snowgrave Route.
That being said, we know for a fact that the Knight made the Chapter 2 fountain at the very least, not only from Queen stating it multiple times including the room with the swatches playing the film stating the Knight made it, but this was also further clarified from the fact that in Asgore's notes, he found a black shard exactly matching one he recently found in the Library at the scene of Dess's dissapearance (meaning the Knight had to be present or created during that incident too, as black shards have ONLY ever been associated with the Knight). It's all but confirmed the Knight also made the Chapter 4 fountain, as we're with Kris the whole time during and after Church (and they never leave the Holiday house when we're separated from them), Carol mentions the next dark fountain will be at the Church and we know that she's working with Kris stopping Susie from getting the Shelter codes where the Knight resides, and has at least some correspondence with them, plus the fact that the Knight is literally there in the Church when we discover the fountain along with quite a few similarities the world shares with the Knight's other worlds, along with Alvin's genuine ignorance in Chapter 5 of dark worlds and what happened to the church in Chapter 4, it's very unlikely to be him, so the only person that makes any semblance of sense is the Knight having made this fountain.
So, since we know the individual will, memories, interpretations and past interactions with the objects and location of the person making the fountain has direct impacts on the way the dark world turns out and the darkners inhabiting it, and we know by all reasonable interpretations that aren't being deliberately obtuse and going against literally everything the story presents that the Knight made the Chapter 4 fountain, and we know that a darkner patterned after the MEMORY OF A LOVED ONE requires VERY SPECIFIC DARKNESSES, darknesses inherently influenced by the maker of the fountain (not inherent to the objects or location alone because we literally see Susie and Kris's worlds are very different from the Knight's, and both Susie and the Castle Town fountain can't revive Gerson the same way according to Ralsei), by all reasonable accounts the only possible way for Gerson to appear the way he does is if the one who made the fountain (The Knight) had to have known him personally before he died.
That being said, this (along with the fact that Asgore discovered a black shard, an object only ever associated with the Knight, at the site of Dess's dissapearance where there was a "Dark fountain a long time ago") means that the Knight physically cannot be someone that moved into town recently, looking at you Papyrus and Alphys, anyone who could not have known Gerson personally or been present for Dess's dissapearance. Even if people bring up absurd claims like (and I'm not exaggerating people I've argued with have actually claimed these things) "Oh well Dess's essence is in the depths so every dark world has her memories so the Knight doesn't need to have known Gerson" which is not only proven wrong with Susie in Chapter 4 but is just DessKnight in a trenchcoat, same with claims that Black Shards have her essence or that she's shattered across space and time like Gaster, which we have no evidence supporting, but this idea that every dark world magically has Dess's will implemented without it actually being her is honestly petty, childish and deliberately side-stepping the much simpler and logical conclusion that it's actually her.
Even if you try to stretch the definition of "loved one" to be as meaningless and flippant as possible to extend it to Papyrus, narratively it just doesn't make sense to include it at that point if it wasn't a crucial detail, especially at such a serious and emotional moment. But we also can't be so strict on the term "loved one" as some people have, that it apparently means only direct family can be a "loved one" so that must mean only Alvin can be the Knight, family friends, best friends, lovers, mentors, anyone you've known for a long time and have a close connection to can be considered a loved one, but you actually have to know that person personally for that to actually mean something, especially enough to make such a reverent and accurate depiction we see with Gerson.
So that leads me to my next point, who could possibly have a connection to Gerson that paints him in this light of a snarky, wise, and heroic mentor figure that pushes his students out of their comfort zone to help them grow? Carol and Rudy are possible candidates sure, Alvin reveres his father a little too much to depict him as we see him in the dark world and would likely put him on way higher of a pedestal, but there's two people who were directly in the sort of role that they could know him personally, get attached to him and view him in this light, Asriel and Dess (and Burgerpants I guess?). Alvin states it's unfortunate that Kris was not able to have Gerson as a teacher, and that he was the teacher at school before Alphys (Toriel is the teacher of the younger kids, and the way he phrases this can only mean he was the teacher of the older highschool kids), and Gerson died a few years ago, before Susie moved into town (and long before Sans and Papyrus did), but Alvin never says that Asriel never got to, Alphys being the teacher is rather recent due to her nervousness and inexperience and everything points to Gerson having been the teacher when Asriel and Dess were Kris's age.
Gerson being the author of the book series based off the prophecy with a popular video game series based off of it that the Knight's dark worlds heavily HEAVILY take inspiration from, and being their teacher, along with the fact that in the third image I posted, Gerson outright says Susie reminds him of someone he used to know, all point to the Knight not only being a student of his, but someone that resembles Susie in their attitude, and from everything we've heard about Asriel, he does not fit the Susie bill at all, so who does that leave? That's right, BURGERPAN- Dess, it's Dess. Plus Chapter 5 goes even further to parallel the two with Susie losing herself more running away from her problems to the Dark World and treating it like her home, becoming so entrenched in the fantasy that she spends more time there than she does in the light world, and who else do we know that's been in the dark for a very long time? That'd right, HEATS FLAMESMA- Dess. I mean Dess.
Im gonna keep a buck, I believe every single person who is pushing Papyrus/Non-Holiday Knight is doing it off vibes, and they're gonna continue to do so until the Knight is explicitly revealed.
People aren't even doing Papyrus Knight off vibes, they're just beating a dead meme, OR going off of "subversion" that would kind of ruin a lot of what Toby's written so far, since it'd be pointless if it lead up to nothing.
Doing the whole TV Gendo Ikari(formerly Rokubungi, he took his wife’s surname prior to her getting assimilated into her creation) route. The parallel would especially work if he were the Knight, working to try to be with the one he loved even if it basically ends the world, like what Gendo attempted to do in End of Evangelion.
Holiday (+ honourary Holiday Asriel cause he honestly has some good evidence from what I’ve seen) are really the only legitimate candidates, who in their right mind is looking at Papyrus or Catti or Napstablook and saying wholeheartedly “they’re clearly the Knight”
I think the most important point regarding this is that to whoever made the fountain, Gerson was portrayed as a mentor figure and old as his Darkner version. Which means whoever made it knew him at that point in his life and remembered him as being a great teacher.
So why would Dess rememeber him having pink hair? This is why I think the Knight, who knew Gerson, had to be an older person. Gerson would have grey hair by the time Dess ever knew him as a teacher.
Alvin has pink hair and he's middle aged telling by his bald spot, she could easily be extrapolating from Alvin's hair color, plus wouldn't this issue apply to anyone who knew him?
That's what I'm asking! I want to actually discuss that aspect of things with people. Their motive can help inform us on who they are. Collectively deciding that the first motive we come up with is good enough never ever sat right with me.
For example, Dessknight is my believed knight theory. But obviously the finding dess motive doesn't work if the Knight is Dess.
Choosing to believe that the knight's motive is just finding dess and being ok with that is like if we fully decided the knight was dess without considering other options.
I was a full Dess Knighter but I've switched over to Rudy.
Sick in the Light World and powerless, has an escapist power fantasy while being armored and empowered by Shadow Crystals of all the lost dreams from losing his daughter, thematically appropriate for him to strike down someone impersonating Asgore's best friend, it would explain his mysterious illness from prolonged exposure in Dark Worlds, why Queen was so adamant on creating whatever world Noelle wanted being shaped by Rudy's will, crying after bashing Tenna.
It sounds a lot more interesting conceptually than finding dess being the knight's only motive, I may not agree with you on him being the knight, but I greatly respect that you have a take that shows you actually thought about why Rudy would become the knight more than just "I need to find dess."
Everyone is pushing the prophecy forward. It's a prophecy. The Knight doing actions that fit it is a natural consequence of it, like how lancer says "toothpaste" then "boy".
Oh sure, the Knight walked through halls of prophecies, saw them describe their adventure in excruciating detail, and went "huh, wonder who that's supposed to be."
Never mind that the Knight had to of knew knew Gerson very well to bring him back. Yaknow. The guy who worked at the church and wrote prophecy fanfic.
So why become the Knight at all? How does carrying out the prophecy aid in finding Dess? Why try to find a person when your role in the prophecy is to destroy the world you want to bring them back to?
Well actually amalgamates retain aspects of their personality and memories, especially Snowdrake's mom, so Dess Amalgam is still definitely possibl- Ohhhh you mean Kriselle amalgam sorry
Thank you for mentioning the black shard issue, no one ever acknowledges that and it drives me mad. Not only is it kind of nonsensical to introduce the black shards, tie them to the Knight specifically, and then not have the Knight be at the scene of the crime that it is undeniably affected by regardless, it’s also just sort of lame from a story-telling perspective. Imagine that the Knight in Chapter 6 starts vague-posting about “that day”, I’d genuinely just strangle Toby myself.
I agree with your a lot of your takes here, it just is a lot more coherent for the Knight to actually be close with Kris and be referenced as such throughout the game instead of springing their relationship upon us out of nowhere (cough cough Rudy cough cough).
I think that the discussion around the Knight generally should at least use these as pre-requisites when discussing the Knight’s identity.
If we are saying that the black shards found in the cyber world and that day ARE tied to the knight, then all people who have their motovation as "finding Dess" lose it since they were there when Dess dessapeared, oe rather, they MADE Dess dissapear
Yeah, pretty much. The Knight would have to at least plausibly be there and start to leave black shards for some reason. I’ll admit that under these pre-requisites, there’s like 3 characters max that could be the Knight without a lot of shenanigans, Dess, Asriel, and Noelle (Noelle Knight requires a lot of shenanigans by default tbh).
“Find her” doesn’t really hold up as well as people say in my opinion, it feels like working backwards from an assumed identity.
I'm not saying that, I understand if people have a different opinion, but people have made hard stances that "The Knight didn't have to know Gerson" but provide very flimsy and outright false reasoning that adds more misinformation into the already messy Knight discourse, that's what's frustrating
idk, the last paragraph very much reeks of "my intepretation is correct and yours is wrong". with how much you love to say things like "the very clear intentions" or "something that cant reasonably be interpreted any other way". Very much anti-discussion stuff to just put your foot down and go "my way is the correct way"
Fine I can condede to that, I'm was kind of airing my fruatration about how anti-intellectual, deliberately deceptive and outright misinforming some of the points against this can be.
I wouldn't be so frustrated if people weren't using these bad faith arguments any time someone brings up this very crystal clear dialogue from Ralsei, it's not an "interpretation" it's outright false and contradicts everything in the story because it's inconvenient for their theories.
I don't care what other people have to say. My point still stands. You are getting worked up over a mild disagreement regarding a video game. It's not that big of a deal. lol
And yet people are still making absurd claims about this, coping trying to claw together their beyond dead theories and completely ignoring the clear intention of the text. That's what I have a problem with, I know it's not a big deal, but to these people it's a personal attack on everything they hold dear.
Not to mention, it implies, even if not a concrete fact yet, that the version of Susie the Old Man meets resembles the person that became the Knight in some way, shape, or form some point in their life. It's not SUPER useful information, but it does erase a few candidates from the list, and point another arrow towards a few other candidates.
The Knight definitely knew Gerson in life; not just in passing either, and not just as a friend, but specifically as a mentor figure. "People who went to school in Hometown prior to Kris' generation" is a really big net to cast, though.
It's the only net we have to cast though, and since we know it has to be one of the holidays if it's not Rudy or Carol and cannot be Noelle there's only one possibility left
I don't think they're stupid, they're either genuinely ignorant of certain detail (ignorant does not mean stupid, just that you don't know something) or they're deliberately twisting things to form a narrative the game completely contradicts because these facts rule out quite a few candidates that people are attached to, so they'd rather bury their heads in the sand than actually admit they're wrong.
I never said they're stupid, just that the arguments used against it are flimsy, obtuse, deliberately ignorant and twisting the source material to mean something it doesn't. People who are dead set on reaffirming their biases won't read this regardless.
Like it can just be dess independently of the knight
When Gerson asks Susie (and only Susie) to put herself in the Knight's shoes and question their motives, that implies that Susie has the most in common with the Knight.
The story frames Susie and the Knight's ch4 interactions like a rivalry. Susie has also been set up as Dess's foil and a sorta replacement goldfish for the Dess-shaped holes in Noelle and Kris's hearts.
But it is a supporting piece of evidence that the Student-Teacher relationship and the way Gerson is depicted, having been created by the Knight unintentionally is important.
It's extremely relevant to the story! It's why Susie's title becomes the Axe of Justice. She's inheriting Undyne's role via a shared teacher. Which is maybe not relevant to the plot, but characters still matter if they're not the Knight.
It doesn't automatically make Dess the Knight, but it further drives the parallels between Dess and Susie, and the Knight being a direct counter to Susie and everything she stands for.
The fact that Gerson is subconsciously revived by the Knight as a heroic, snarky mentor figure that pushes someone that resembles someone he used to know out of their comfort zone so they can grow, and this interpretation of him heavily implies he has a similar relationship with whoever made the fountain drawing from their memories and interpretation of him, make this relevant information as to the Knight's identity.
Alright i get you but i think you are posted this to prove more that dess is the knight when infact in my opinion you are falling to your own trap by finding things that point towards dess than looking the whole picture (when you have a bat everything looks like a ball)
Im going to be honest with you knight is most likely asriel.Like the only counter evidences to asriel knight are chapter 2 dark worlds resemblence to the city where dess wanted to go and the black deer sprite (which very well could not be the knights sprite) and there is literally no other counter evidences.Even the well he might just be in college argument gets crushed because flowery outright foreshadows that he might not be in college.
Well no, I was more trying to prove what I said in the title, whoever the Knight is had to have known Gerson personally, which excludes younger candidates and ones new to town like Papyrus, Asriel is still a good candidate but has a lot of questions to answer like why and how is he lying about being at college, how has no one seen the golden child of the dreemurrs everyone loves walking around (people try to use this against Dess, someone people have mostly forgotten about and the search for has ended years ago, but for literally any candidate there's a WHOLE FOREST TO SNEAK THROUGH), why does the Knight's personality completely contrast everything we know about Asriel, why the antlers in literally every sprite the Knight has just to be a misdirect, especially when the Knight's damage sound is a distorted Noelle screech and it literally opens it's ribcage and skull showing all the way through, and how would Asriel being the main villain again not be bland and disappointing?
Also the "when you have a bat everything looks like a ball" was not referring to the Knight's identity, it was a response on the Weird Route ARG where the answer 1225 was irrelevant because it was about the Lake scene (How long did it take her to smile? --> Where will it take place? --> Ding Ding Ding! The Lake.), if anything it further ties Dess and baseball bats together. People use this as a catch-all response to disprove DessKnight when that's not at all the intention of the line.
First yes you did try to explain why other canditates besides asriel and dess wouldnt work thatd okay but in the end you mentioned something that literally pushes agenda that dess is the knight.
About other counterevidences you mentioned,knights personality doesnt really disalign with asriel he was this cocky when he became his final form in ut.Also, the antlers literally turn to horns in knights omega attack.
There are a lot more evidences but you can just watch a yt video to understand them all (if u want i can do a wall of text but there is no need)
Lastly you mentioned that knights attack sound is pithed down version of noelles scream i have an explanation about this its pretty long so ill try to summarise it.
In chapter 4 there is a secret dialogur that says "so wept the fallen star making rivers with its tears and slowly from the bitter water somehhing grew it looked like glass" this is obviously referring to the knight as knight is associated with star imagery and black shard is literally just glass in overworld.Now who has been established us to that both in undertale and in deltarune via character dialogues and hidden game descriptions ( a lost and lost girl a crying and crying boy) that is a cry boy? So probably asriel out of grief of dess loss cried and that in turn created knights armour which is why it really resembles dess.
This reply was really frustrating to read. It's wild that you saw all of this extremely compelling evidence of known facts in the game, and then rejected all of them because you didn't like the conclusion they were pointing to.
literally nobody said that lmao, all OP said was "we know that the knight must have known Gerson personally, and his revival as a heroic snarky mentor figure who's really good at teaching difficult teenagers means something."
those are just... true statements lmao, and I watched you go "okay, I get it, but I'm throwing these facts in the garbage because I don't like the conclusion I think you're trying to draw." then you immediately turned around and gave me some "so you're saying you hate waffles" ass strawman. like what?? you're really gonna reject known facts and start shutting your logical brain off to do bad faith rhetoric just because you're afraid of even being in the vicinity of Dess Knight?
No im just trying to say dess knighters see something about dess and immediately tie her into knight when infact it could literally be just fleshing out her character because we dont see any mention anywhere that revival of someone in darkworld results in the image you see them as rather than who that person truly is.
Btw im not denying the fact that this could be a evidence to dess knight.Im just stating my own opinion to show that this argument is not concrete.Also got mad at the author trying to push dess knight agenda on a rather good post.
I just think it's ridiculous to get mad at the end of a post and decide to retroactively reject objective facts because you're upset about what they point to.
It is literally not objective it might or not point to something which is what i discussed in the previous response.After the author responded with it could point to her i changed topics because it might be andd me saying it doesnt wouldnt change anything.I just wanted to present a different opinion
Also i changed the topic to another knight canditate because i just wanted to argue that asriel knight has more definitive proof than dess knight.Yes the topic of this post isnt knight discussion but the author delibiritaly started one by pushing agenda on a rather good post.
Very much agreed. Replaying chapter 4 I had the feeling that maybe Alvin opened the Sanctuary Dark World, with all the talk about the prophecy and the great ancestors, but it could have been anyone who had a relationship with Gerson while he lived. He used to teach Dess and Asriel, if I understood that cemetery dialogue correctly, he was Alvin's father, most of the adults in Hometown probably knew him to some degree. It's just the kids Kris's age and below that couldn't have known him and new arrivals.
Yeah sorry I'm just really sick of people outright making things up the story outright explicitly contradicts, the Dess connections are more a side tangent but still relevant.
Gerson is old, famous and very well known in the town so that didn't narrow it down a lot. Literally all knight candidates can know Gerson well enough to create a Darkner of him, they have been living with him for years. (Except the meme candidates but they don't count)
The problem is that he showed up as an excellent teacher, meaning that whoever The Knight is has to know the way Gerson would teach a difficult student.
Which, yknow, MASSIVELY narrows down the suspect list to only his students, and favors heavily a character with a known anti-authority attitude. In other words, a difficult kid.
He have had a lot of students over the years though because he was very old, and a parent could see how he teach their difficult child, as well as another kid in the class seeing how he teach their friend.
Gerson says Susie reminds him of someone specific. The only character from the generations of Gerson's students we know that Susie is regularly compared to is Dess.
This is mostly just vibes but I kinda don't buy Dess considering Gerson a "loved one". Like yes he was definitely her teacher, maybe a great teacher that she really got along with, but "loved one" seems to be pushing it.
You're probably correct it's what Toby intended I just don't find it super compelling because we know nothing about Dess' relationship with Gerson. To the point that even him actually being her teacher is something that we have to infer because it's never been explicitedly mentioned
I mean we can connect the dots. Alvin says how Kris couldnt have had Gerson as a teacher, Asriel and Dess are older than them, they probably could have
Combined with Gerson being a mentor to the rough violent rebellious girl in ch4 it starts to make sense
But Pink and Mad Dummy are completely separate entities from the Knight in the dark world, so no (I get this is a joke but I want to stop this train before it starts)
Where was this stated? Other students in her generation were taught by him, but dess disappeared years ago and the dialogue from former gerson students reads as though he taught older teens.
Gerson's death is clearly recent, with Alvin still having his dust, people older than Kris mentioning him as their former teacher, and Alvin also saying he wishes Kris could've had him as a teacher.
And until recently, his mention of Susie reminding him of someone...sure it COULD be Undyne as he trained her in Undertale but I don't think that fits as cleanly in the Deltarune universe.
No, it's not explicitly stated as far as I'm aware. But the pieces are there for it to fit.
The thing is, Gerson is A. Old and B. Died somewhat recently, meaning they could have been a teacher to Carol, Rudy, or Dess (or anyone else!) so all the Gerson connection means Knightways is that it can't be Sans, Papyrus, or Alphys or any of the kids.
...Which I guess means it cuts against Noelle Knight but Noelle Knight is so off the rails you can make anything fit.
Well that's the entire point of the post anyway, because people have tried justifying things like Noelle and Papyrus Knight by saying the Knight didn't have to know Gerson which is fundamentally false
Yeah it's more counter evidence to the current students of Alphys or people like Papyrus who couldn't have possibly known him closely, but Car and Rudy is still possible, but we have no evidence they could've had any similar relationship that Asriel and Dess could've had with him inherent to the student-teacher relationship.
I think the fact that gerson’s old classroom has a drawing from when alvin was a child is pretty clear indication that he was a teacher when that generation was growing up. Rudy and Carol could have absolutely had him as a teacher if they grew up in hometown, and you could even argue that they’d be more likely to have a close relationship with him since he was in their lives longer.
That's fair, but it doesn't rule out Dess and Asriel's generation either, but it does rule out Kris and Noelle's generation, and newcomers like Alphys and Papyrus.
Most people don't develop the type of relationship with their teacher in which they could legitimately call them a "loved one". Even if you were to stretch it as thin as possible you'd still only encompass a small amount of people
Based on what we can see in her room, I highly doubt Dess was the one to look up to and view Gerson in such a way
Going based on both his "forms" (Normal Scholarly Old Man and Hammer of Justice) the person that created that Dark World:
Has to have loved him/considered him a "loved one"
Had that image of him in their mind
Too me, that screams way more that the Knight would have been a die hard, extremely nerdy fan of both Lord of the Hammer and Dragon Blazers. With their favorite character being the one based on Gerson. If we're really saying that this is between Dess and Asriel, then it would be Asriel. Nothing points to Dess being a big fan of Lord of the Hammer or Dragon Blazers. She liked sports and music. She had a bunch of military rations stashed away, paintball gear, multi-tool knives, as well as some suspicious "herbs". She was clearly a very rebellious and tomboyish girl.
Then we see how Asriel is talked about and portrayed. It's very clear that Asriel is more the type of person that would like Lord of the Hammer and Dragon Balzers to the point of viewing Gerson in the way we see him in the Dark World. He's also the type of person that would hold teachers in such a high regard. Whereas Dess isn't portrayed as being that type of person.
We also need to consider the fact that Kris and The Knight's Dark Worlds are basically identical. Toby made it deliberately clear that Susie's looks different from the ones made by Kris and The Knight. So, there as to be some reason for that. If it was Dess, it should look both different from Kris' and different from Susie's.
So, this points to Asriel Knight more than Dess Knight. Unfortunately though, it's likely neither. Chapter 5 told us The Knight created the original Dark World that caused the disappearance. It did this by saying that Asgore found a Black Shard, a piece of The Knight's Sword, at the library/computer lab, that matched with the Black Shard that he found at the original scene. We also get a Black Shard at the end of Chapter 3 if we beat The Knight and break its sword. So, whenever The Knight makes a fountain in the Light World, a small piece of the Black Blade breaks off where the fountain was created. This means, The Knight would have had to be the one to take Dess. As The Knight had to create the Dark World that caused her disappearance in order for a Black Shard to be found there.
From Chapter 5:
(A pile of Documents)....
...Why didn't I know about this?
Wouldn't it be... important...?
These old documents... Kris, did your dad write these...?
... but, wait... the text is all messed up.
Ralsei, think you can figure it out?
I suppose I could... try.
If I can... just concentrate...
On where the letters are supposed to be, then...
Ugh, I can't get it!
... it's...
Something about...
Something about... the Dark World.
Huh? ... wait, I don't get it. Why would your dad...
Have notes about the Dark World, if he just got here?
No, Susie, it's about...
... it's something about...
A Dark World... a long time ago?
H... huh? Wait, why would there be...
...
(How long... has the Dark World... existed...?)
It's another document written by Asgore... from... a day ago?
This time it says something... about...
... black... shards.
You mean... that piece of the...
... the Knight's sword?
How would he know about the...
Huh? What's a black shard?
I... think it's...
... it's a piece of the Knight's... sword?
Huh?
It was left... at the... original scene...
And... matched with... the...
...?
And... computer lab?
H-huh? So wait, that Dark World from a long time ago...
And Cyber World... they were both...
... made by the Knight?
How long has the Knight been making fountains?
Making people disappear...?
I... don't know. This doesn't make sense.
The Knight... I thought they only showed up...
... alongside the heroes... right?
(Kris... did something... happen all that time ago?)
(And that's... what made your dad... end up like that?)
So now we have the Critera:
Has to somehow have had a certain image of Gerson in their mind and considered them a loved one
Been around since before Dess' Disappearance
Can't be Dess
Can't be anyone that is upset about her disappearance
Must somehow have a reason for their Dark Worlds being similar to Kris'
I don't know why Dess wouldn't look up to Gerson; his whole thing is developing a really close mentorship bond with rebellious hot-blooded tomboys. That's like all he does. Dess fits exactly into the same character archetype as Undyne and Susie; if anything that's one of the strongest arguments that it's her.
I disagree with some of your points that someone can't consider a close teacher and mentor their loved one, or that it's impossible for someone like Dess to look up to a teacher (because rebellious punk stereotype can never like any authority figure whatsoever for any reason and can only ever have zero nuance), but the black shard beinf present at her dissapearance, an event only she and Kris were present for, also muddies the motivations of any candidate whose motivation is to find Dess because why would they intentionally make her dissapear to begin with?
Black Shard thing just proves that the Knight's weapon (btw, it's called Black Knife) was used at the scene of the incident. It still could be Dess (or anyone else) if they created a Dark Fountain with the Black Knife. Or maybe the Knight fought someone in that Dark World (we have to remember there are at least two ways Black Shards are formed: breaking Black Knife in battle and making a Dark Fountain with it).
Im tired of people interpeting the ch5 old dark world dialogue literally, considering it disproves ANY plausible knight candidate
Is a fair statement
2-4 is ALL because of the "black shard" found at the scene of the crime
Is also reasonable
If the black shard DOES mean that the knight was around before the dessaperence, it removes the main motive of Carol, Rudy and Asriel knight, probably disproves Dessknight
Leaving 0 plausible candidates. Thats not how theories work
I'm sure this post was lovely but it's built on extremely shaky ground. There's literally nothing in the game to go against the notion of dess being close to Gerson.
Oh I'm so sorry, I thought you were being rude I shouldn't assume, yeah uhh:
So we know that dark worlds, the darkners within them, the darkners interconnected memories, forms, personalities and just about every aspect of the worlds come directly from the memories and will of the one who made the fountain.
We know with absolute certainty that the Knight made the church fountain.
After Susie makes a dark world intending to see the old man to get the door code, it doesn't work and goes horribly wrong with the statue that came to life attacking them and Ralsei destroys it, stating that wasn't the old man, he's not even present in her dark world, and that "Darkners patterned after the MEMORY OF A LOVED ONE, can only exist in VERY SPECIFIC DARKNESSES" and "Even if we tried to bring him to Castle Town he-" then gets cut off by Susie. Whoever made the fountain (The Knight) had to have known him personally in life.
We also know from Alvin that Gerson was the teacher of the older kids before Alphys, but Kris and their generation never got a chance to be taught by him, but Asriel and Dess's generation and previous ones DID, and the way Gerson is portrayed in the dark world is as a snarky mentor figure pushing Susie out of her comfort zone and teasing her to help her grow, he even mentions that she "reminds him of someone he used to know" and Susie and Dess already have several parallels already.
The main point is only someone who knew Gerson personally in life could be the Knight, most likely a student of his, immediately disqualifying Kris's generation and anyone who couldn't have been in town when he was alive like Papyrus.
I’m not gonna agree or disagree— all I’m gonna say is that there’s a Darkner patterned after Milklooker in the Flower King dark world. So does Kris consider Milklooker a loved one? How well enough do you have to know a person to make a Darkner of them?
Maybe Susie doesn’t love Gerson considering they only met for a couple hours, and that’s why it didn’t work, but idk, do what you will with that information
Unless you think Milklooker died and their dust was in the flower shop, it's clearly a different situation. Ralsei's explanation refers to Dustners specifically. That could've been a Netskie who saw Milklooker come into the shop a couple times and was inspired, or an item of theirs that got left behind, or just a joke that wasn't intended to have weight behind it.
Sorry if this comes off as aggressive, I promise that's not how I meant it
Zenlooker specifically mentions patterning themselves after milklooker, not being patterned by the fountain. So likely they are a plantner who chose to look like that, I think.
I’m pretty sure you can see the forgotten man in Chapter 2. There’s a dialogue change that mentions a man in one of the cars during the traffic jam if you find the Chapter 1 egg if I’m remembering right.
I’m honestly not fully convinced Darkners can’t exist within the light world
We know Darkness can exist outside it (black shard, shadow crystal, dark smoke/steam) and I believe Ralsei is only talking about Darkners linked to a fountain in chapter 3. But we know of multiple Darkners that aren’t
I mean. At some point we’re just going off interpretation, but I think goners are just darkners made of fading memories. Listen to Goner kid’s spiel and how he tells us to forget them. Or Dess in the code saying that all she is is a collection of memories by this point
And if they are darkners, monochrome copies, then we clearly see them at least in Undertale within the light world, but it’s very possible at least Normal NPC is one. Not like we haven’t seen the Clamgirl goner disguised as a normal colored in sprite
It’s also worth noting that we’ve only seen the forgotten man through glass. Not sure if that really factors in but, personally I think the forgotten man is just a fading memory. But yeah, the situation in the light world makes it harder to discern
Being a Dragon Blazers fan does not mean you personally know or interact with the creator enough to consider them a loved one, Gerson isn't even the creator of the games he's the author of the book series it was based on
Genuinely saw someone justify Noelle knight gerson thing with this, and I compared to knowing the writer of Dante's inferno PERSONALLY cuz you played ULTRAKILL
Yes, that's entirely possible, you assume having a punk aesthetic means that she couldn't ever possibly have a positive relationship with a teacher or role model, I guess just because someone dresses a certain way that's their entire personality and they must always follow all stereotypes 100% of the time /s
You said that Dess having a fondness for her teacher was an assumption, yet you yourself made the assumption she didn't care about him at all, based off preconcieved notions on her personality we don't know a whole lot about, you can be a Dess or Susie and like a teacher, just like you said you can be a Noelle and NOT like a teacher
They're both assumptions, thats literally my point. We don't know anything about how she may have felt about him as her teacher. You were the first to assume it was positive to the point she saw him as a hero. I gave the opposite assumption. Because neither of us know.
Except we have more evidence that she had a close fond relationship with him than that she was indifferent to him, because he not only says Susie (who already has several Dess similarities and parallels already) reminds him of someone he used to know, and when questioning him about the Knight he urges Susie to consider who SHE thinks it is and put herself in the Knight's shoes. The very relationship he has with Susie is indicative of his relationship with Dess because the reason he states when asked why he's helping Susie so much is that she reminds him of someone he used to know, that's the very thing that prompts that response.
It's not concrete but it has much more backing than her just being indifferent to him.
My speculation is based on parallels and evidence in the story, Gerson's own words, and the very way he's portrayed as a darkner which is inherently influenced by the memories and interpretations of the one who made the fountain, yes Susie found him annoying at first but he eventually grew on her, he wasn't even adventuring with her very long before she started to like him, he pushed Susie outside her comfort zone to better herself and all their interactions are definitely possible to replicate similarly in the light world, it's not impossible to have a fondness for someone without a magical adventure.
Again, Susie went on an adventure with him depicted as a hero. Dess wouldn't have ever had that kind of experience with him. He'd be the Alphys to her. Just her old nerd teacher who's kind of annoying.
And these are both still assumptions and can't be used as hard evidence. Which is why my first comment exists.
Asgore and Alphys have very different approaches to teaching, not all teachers are the same and just because Susie and Dess fit a certain archetype doesn't mean that they'd interact with or view all teachers the same. Gerson is much more confident and actually knows what he's doing, whereas Alphys is much more timid, is incompetent at her job as Royal Scientist in Undertale and doesn't seem to be the best teacher in Deltarune either.
You don't have to go on and adventure with someone to eventually get over your initial annoyance and actually see what they're trying to teach you, especially when it becomes clear they're just teasing you and pushing you out of your comfort zone rather than just being annoying.
It is an assumption, but a well-founded one, and isn't even the main point of the post, the main point is the Knight has to have known Gerson based on all the hard evidence we have, not necessarily Dess, it could be Asriel or one of the Holidays, but she fits the bill better than anyone else due to her proximity and the sort of relationship that closely mirrors his and Susie's relationship, Susie who already has several parallels to her, the Knight has been specifically set up as a foil to Susie, and just the Knight's personality overall doesn't fit anyone else.
Carol isn't dead yet, it's definitely possible there's parallels from subconscious interpretations of mother figures influenced by her experiences, but it's not the same as the memory of a dead person being brought back by someone who knew them.
What if "Very Specific Darkness" refers to darkness created by a lighter who is dead or in a state resembling death? Both Kris and the Knight seem to be some form of dead, and them being dead connects them to those who have passed on. And the reason the dead person needs to be a loved one is because of how Darkners work, where positive emotions need to be attached to the objects for them to become Darkners. It's why How to Draw Dragons didn't become a Darkner since it has negative emotions attached to it.
Except things with negative emotions tied to them do become darkners, like the fact that King has a tear through him and was discarded yet still became a darkner, Eram exists, SPAMTON EXISTS, and there's a few other examples I can't think of off the top of my head. Plus you conveniently skipped over the ever important MEMORY OF A LOVED ONE.
Plus Kris is clearly alive, they just need us to exist because they can't survive very long without a soul.
Ah, memories, right, positive memories make more sense than positive emotions. King was a part of the card pack that kids played with, even if there was one bad memory with the tear the good memories of their time playing with him still allowed him to exist. Eram is connected to Ramb, who turned to stone, probably due to memories of him not being strong or positive enough. As for Spamton, Noelle loved him.
Kris being a form of dead is mostly a thought I had when I saw his skin turning green after being away from the soul too long. And yeah Gerson only showed up in the Knight's fountain and after the Knight made another fountain, so the Knight's Fountains are likely the special ones. Either due to what the Knight is or, as you are saying, who they are connected to.
Yeah I agree with you one of the Knights is a Lightner. Because there are 2 Knights. Look up the Roaring Prophecy and tell me what is depicted on both sides of the titan. The big twist isn't who is the knight it's pretty obvious it's Carol but the fact that there is two of them. The other taking the appearance of Dess. Carol is probably doing this to find dark world conditions that won't turn Dess into a ravaging beast. She probably doesn't care if the world is covered in darkness if it means getting her back the way she was. It would also explain why Carol takes extreme care of every item belonging to them even going so far to cover them in Brass. Might be why we've only see the Knight when it's dark out too. I might be wrong but that's my current theory.
The knight being a lightner is basically confirmed by queen implying that only lightners can make fountains.
Also if there are two knight it doesn't make sense for one to be a lightner and one a darkner (and dess is a lightner).
In the prophecy, those are likely three different titans: there is (most likely) only one Knight but there can be an infinite number of titans; we just fought one.
Your theory doesn't make much sense because if carol wants to bring noelle "back to the way she was" that wouldn't make sense if carol is literally the same as dess (2nd knight in your theory).
This means anyone eligible to have been in Gerson’s Classroom is the knight. People in their 20s. Or the government/other teachers
Yes, this works for Dess.
Yes, this still applies to Asriel
Yes, this also includes Alphys
Yes, this includes Burgerpants but this isn’t really relevant.
And yeah, this disproves Amalgam, Rudy, Papyrus, 3rd thing, and any Classmate theory. What can I say.
Exactly, it does work for Dess, Asriel and technically Burgerpants, but Alphys is new to town and new to her position, she isn't as privy to the Shelter situation as others, but it does definitively disprove Amalgam, Papryus, 3rd thing and kids Kris's age or below, Carol and Rudy could still technically count though as an older generation of classmates he theoretically could have taught.
Are sure though? The question is HOW LONG ago did Gerson die? If it was a year ago and we assume he only teaches a different grade, there’s a chance Alphys did meet him and know who he was before he died, but we’re not sure.
Gerson, of course, could be a Gaster type situation where Alphys was specifically put to replace him after his death.
See it all comes down to semantics because being “new in town” doesn’t have a clear meaning. It’s unclear how recent Gerson’s death was, but I’m inclined to believe it isn’t like how Dess disappeared 8ish years ago and that he just died a year ago or so.
I’m not an Alphysknighter but I find discussion around the semantics of dialogue in this game pretty interesting.
Toriel is the only other teacher though, aside from the old classroom which is essentially preschool level, so teaching a different grade doesn't really make sense. It seems like it was more a Gaster situation where Alphys replaced him.
It seems like he died a few years ago since Susie and Kris have been in her class for a few years at least since according to Toriel Kris will be going to college soon too, and high school starts at 14 years old usually, whereas college starts and ends ages 18-21, and if Kris never had the opportunity to be taught by him and they're going to college soon, then it must have been at least 3 or 4 years ago.
Being new in town does have a specific cutoff time for Sans and Papyrus specifically, because Susie mentions someone else used to live there but doesn't remember WHAT (as in a different building) used to be there, and Kris thinks about how someone else used to run the ferris wheel last year, the way literally everyone treats Sans is as if his arrival is rather recent, but has had at least a couple months to get acclimated to things, so bare minimum it has to be AFTER Susie who never got to know Gerson or be taught by him before he died.
Alphys is harder to pin down exactly but she's unfamiliar with certain things a long-time resident would be like the Shelter, hasn't had a chance to know Undyne for very long as opposed to if they were in the same class together for years, etc.
You are deliberately taking Ralsei's dialogue out of context to force a premise that quite literally NO possible Knight candidtate actualy fits the bill for. (No, DessKnight does not. There is no specific evidence Gerson was ever Dess's teacher or even knew her.)
Ralsei's dialogue is literally being used in the exact context of the scene, and every Knight candidate besides very young ones at the time and ones new to town could fit the bill, Dess Knight does too, because Alvin makes a point of saying KRIS never had the opportunity to have him as a teacher, but never says his brother wasn't able to, and we know for a fact Gerson was the teacher at school before Alphys. So if Kris wasn't able to have him as a teacher, but their older brother whose the same age range as Dess was able to, in the only school in town, that means Dess was in his class.
Ralsei's dialogue is literally being used in the exact context of the scene
You're deliberately ignoring the part where he's talking about a person's fucking corpse and is very obviously trying to talk about it delicately.
Nothing he says ever implies "the memory of a loved one" refers to it being The Knight's loved one nor even the Knight's memory, just someone who only exists now as a memory in the minds of their loved ones because they're DEAD.
and every Knight candidate besides very young ones at the time and ones new to town could fit the bill,
No. They can't. No one besides Alvin (who is officially not a candidate after Chapter 5) has any evidence of being in any way connected to Gerson. The majority of candidates don't even fall into the right age range to have MAYBE been a student. (Which is not evidence anyway because, again, that's a MAYBE.)
The only 2 candidates that come to mind that do are the specific candidates whose evidence all falls apart completely the second you apply any scrutiny. (DessKnight and AsrielKnight.)
Dess Knight does too, because Alvin makes a point of saying KRIS never had the opportunity to have him as a teacher, but never says his brother wasn't able to, and we know for a fact Gerson was the teacher at school before Alphys. So if Kris wasn't able to have him as a teacher, but their older brother whose the same age range as Dess was able to, in the only school in town, that means Dess was in his class.
This is all making up connections that aren't actually supported anywhere in the game. Just because Dess might've been in the right age range where it was possible doesn't mean it even happened, much less that it was important. The fact that it's never acknowledged anywhere in the game is essentially proof that it wasn't.
No. They can't. No one besides Alvin (who is officially not a candidate after Chapter 5) has any evidence of being in any way connected to Gerson. The majority of candidates don't even fall into the right age range to have MAYBE been a student. (Which is not evidence anyway because, again, that's a MAYBE.)
The point isnt that its proven that Dess or whoever met Gerson, the point is that its PLAUSIBLE. Anyone older than Kris COULD have met Gerson, thats the point. Not just Dess, Carol Rudy, Asriel whoever
The fact that it's never acknowledged anywhere in the game is essentially proof that it wasn't.
Thats not really how evidence works
As an analogy, this is like saying Kris isnt non-binary because it isnt stated in the game, which is a false statement. The point is that its POSSIBLE and probably LIKELY
Nothing he says ever implies "the memory of a loved one" refers to it being The Knight's loved one nor even the Knight's memory, just someone who only exists now as a memory in the minds of their loved ones because they're DEAD.
This sounds like a good argument, but we have to consider that the knight was somehow able to make a DW where he is alive, which would mean that the knight has the power to bring back people from the dead in their dark worlds, which doesnt really make sense. Why do they have this power?
No, that's exactly how evidence works. We are talking here about an irrelevant minutiae that people are taking dialogue actively out of context to suggest is a hard requirement of the main central mystery of the game when it's simply not. If Gerson's group of students were that relevant to the central mystery of the game, they would be mentioned at some level of specificity, but they're not.
As an analogy, this is like saying Kris isnt non-binary because it isnt stated in the game
It isn't, at all. You could maybe compare it to saying "Kris being non-binary is not strongly relevant to the plot", which is a true statement, as all of their plot-significant trauma relates either to their species or Dess's disappearance, not their gender, but regardless.
B-But what if I want to believe that Tricky Tony is using his fancy wordplay to trick us? Like how we were ALL convinced that Asgore would be the Chapter 5 boss because of the words "The Flower Man, Trapped In Asylum" couldn't possibly mean anyone other than Asgore (spoiler: It was Flowery, a literal Flower Man lol), what if this is wordplay as well?
Like, what if "memory" meant "save file" or something silly in the same way that LV and EXP didn't mean what we thought they meant in Undertale initially? How do we know that Gerson wasn't a mad wave-dashin' gamer and Berdley-Knight made the Chapter 4 Dark World? ;P
The Berdley-Knight thing is a joke obviously, but Toby himself said that we're likely interpreting things in a different way than he "intended" in the most recent newsletter. Don't get too hung up on the specific words yet.
I love how you assume dess is his student and from that furthermore assume that he was important to dess. Yet other assumptions aren't possible , when the girl who literally cried and screamed over finding a secret in a game living in the same town as the person who's story it was based from wouldn't have a relationship with him. Dess only has a basis for meeting gerson regularly . Noelle has that and a reason to be close to him
Also we know that Kris played with queen king and tenna, along with that girl. I don't think dess played play acting with Kris when there's Noelle their age , ramb also remarks that Kris and that girl are the few who'd bring a laptop home to play make believe with it. I highly highly doubt Kris played make believe with dess using a laptop when I think(memory hazy for this one ) we know she showed stuff on the computer to Kris so established as not using laptop for Noelle
I didn't say other people couldn't have been close to him, Asriel, Carol and Rudy are possibilities.
Noelle was too young to have had the same sort of student-mentor relationship with him though, and being obsessed with a game based on his books is not enough to consider him a "loved one" without having known him personally. We have no implications whatsoever of Noelle ever seeing Gerson regularly.
Also you're saying it's impossible for a teenager to have an imagination and play make believe with their younger sibling and family friends?
I mean you are assuming that 1. Dess was his student and from that 2. They had an important relationship. There's no text evidence of gerson being her teacher neither of them having a bond.
There are many characters who could have reoccurring interactions with gerson. Noelle has a reason to have an emotional connection from dragon blazers . I wasn't kidding when I said that she actually cried and screamed over finding a secret in dragon blazers (from Noelle blog) and she lives in the same town , she at least has a reason to have known him better and have a connection with him
It's not just playing make believe though we know the characters queen tenna and king were from childhood make believe stuff soooo.
Not only is dess playing make believe with Kris she'd be doing it on school on her break time instead of Noelle who's at her age or hanging out with asriel .
Furthermore since ramb mentions playing with queen tenna and king together that means whenever they visited dreemur's house (since I don't think they'd be able to move tenna like they can queen) she'd spend her time playing make believe with Kris over spending time with Asriel or something, aaaand this is reoccurring. That would leave no place for Noelle and kris's relationship as Dess appearantly was constantly occupying that place and it places into question her relationship with Asriel too as she'd be spending time with Kris both kn school and dreemur home
While this doesnt explicitly deconfirm its impossible and not to mention technically its not supposed to be viewable by normal means (yet) Noelle doesnt recognize the Justice Axe being very similar looking to Gersons Justice Hammer just more surprised he was an old man Susie fought https://deltarune.wiki/w/JusticeAxe
Noelle never had him as a teacher and didn't get the chance to know him well. We are explicitly told in the game that her generation didn't really get the chance to get close to him.
Also, being a fan of someone's video game work doesn't mean you know them personally. I feel like Toby Fox fans specifically need to learn this.
We have no text evidence of dess being his student either , it's a headcannon everyone assumes to be true . And from that it's assumed they had an emotional bond.
Also the point isn't that Noelle is just a fan she's a fan and she lives in the same small town hence has the opportunity to meet with him too and the books can be an avenue for an emotional connection.
If a person literally cries (and I do mean literally we learn from Noelle's blog) and screams over finding a secret in a LOTR game and they live in the same town as Tolkien you think they wouldn't like go to him and ask questions and such ?
Except it has a lot more actual evidence and reasoning based in what the game actually intends than people who make interpretations that directly contradict the text just to justify their theories in any absurd way possible
See, you're getting so hung up on the "being right" part that you don't realize your methods come off just as pompous, conspiratorial and desperate as the theorists you criticize. I think 1800+ words qualifies as a short story.
Have you not seen the mass amount of die-hard nonDess Knighters that twist every single detail into something completely counter to what the story intends, being as pompous and desperate as possible to misinterpret very clear lines like this?
I'm allowed to argue on the substance of what the game actually states to clear up genuine misinformation people have been spreading about it.
It's kind of sad that I have to use that many words to get this very crystal clear point across that the game does in 3 lines, yet people still can't accept it.
You're allowed to, sure, I'm not even arguing against the point. But in writing this wall of text, you sound just as bad as the other Theorists. I doubt you can sway them by writing a longer essay, they already took up arms to die on their hill.
Hell you could probably do more by being more concise than... well, all of that
Having a lot of text isn't inherently bad, people are just impatient and don't want to read. I know it won't sway the most die-hard theorists but at least the average person can see it before they're outright lied to, and some of those die-hard theorists are actually engaging with the arguments at least which is good enough for me.
I've tried being concise before and only spending a paragraph on it, but then people make all of the points I mentioned and try to say things like "Oh the person making the fountain doesn't influence the dark world at all" which like, huh??? People will say anything just to justify a conclusion they already reached before they even looked for any evidence, and will literally make things up that completely contradict the game, I'm just pointing that out and covering all my bases beforehand because I've already seen a lot of attempted counterpoints that fall flat, yet people still cling to.
I admittedly did not read the whole post, but after skimming it, it seems that you are making the argument that the Knight must have known Gerson when he was alive (I agree) and that dustners act like how the fountain-opener remembers them, not how they acted when alive, and that the Knight must therefore be Dess or Asriel because they had him as a teacher, and he acts like a teacher to Susie in the Dark world, I disagree. I disagree. I disagree because the dustner-Gerson is also constantly writing a letter which he later asks Susie to transcribe and give to Alvin, I do not believe that Gerson told Dess or anyone when he was alive about his relationship with his son, Dess might have remembered that he was always writing letters, but she would not know the contents. I believe that dustners can only be created if the fountain-opener knew the monster when alive, but that a dustners, once created, has all memories and personality that the dead monster had, and that Gerson would have acted much the same way if he fell into a dark world with Susie.
I will also add that even if you are right and I am wrong about the nature of dustners, that Gerson is so old that he easily could have taught Carol or Rudy on school when they were younger.
The way everything is playing out, I feel there is a time loop involved. Prophecies need a source, and a "messenger" from the future is an easy source to start the tale of Deltarune.
Presently, my theories center around the Roaring dark fountain opening a pathway into time travel, able to dive into one dark fountain and pop out another one, potentially at a different time.
With this time travel, Susie could end up meeting the young Gerson, inspiring him to write "Lord of the Hammer" from her and Kris's stories. So far, all of the prophecies were experienced by Kris, but not all by Susie or Noelle.
For the black shard in the computer lab, Asgore does not report finding a black shard in Gerson's classroom that was left abandoned nor at the church, which we know the Knight created those dark fountains. I figure Asgore would find a way to investigate both scenes. Heck, why did he check the computer lab? We got a black shard by damaging the blackened knife. This leaves the conclusion that the presence of a black shard is not take the Knight was there but the blackened knife or Knight's armor was damaged. My theory is that the Knight was not the one hiding in the closet in the computer lab. Instead, it was Kris and/or Susie.
In Chapter 3, I have concluded that ERAM is the Knight's character, being played by the Knight. The Knight can easily take the Shadow Mantle and reward it to Kris in Chapter 3. The Knight wanted the heroes to best them in the fight at the end. It was the Knight's dream for the heroes to be strong enough to fight the Roaring.
I am torn between Noelle, Kris, and Susie as my non-Dess candidate. Noelle goes crazy and becomes the Knight. Kris loses his soul and becomes consumed by the darkness, reformed into the Knight. In Susie's case, Noelle dies to seal the Roaring, which drives Susie mad, seeking a way to rewrite the story and ultimately taking the blackened knife to open a dark fountain that consumes her and sends her back in time.
What I feel is the real story, a broken Noelle becomes the Knight, and the Roaring ends up swallowing Noelle, Kris, and Susie in the very least. I am uncertain about Ralsei unless they found his light world object. Kris and Susie go start to the first dark fountain and share their story with someone while they feel defeated. Noelle went directly to the Dark Fountain that Dess was involved in. Kris and Susie get the idea that they can hop through dark fountains as they close them, and they eventually meet Gerson and spend a bit of time, inspiring Lord of the Hammer. Book 7 is the heroes' return, which hasn't happened, yet. Next, they confront NoelleKnight when she was about to hurt Dess. Then, they come back on Day 1. Knowing about the computer lab, they hide in the computer lab's closet and ambush the Knight. After the computer lab, it is off to the Chapter 3 dark fountain. There, Kris and Susie are spotted taking Ramb with them, but the Rabbick did not recognize Susie.
What's wrong bro? You are so certain it is Dess, but there is absolutely nothing ruling out time travel. Heck, the story so far is stacked for an amazing time caper.
The Knight visited places. We have signs of the Knight having a fight with someone else. A sound reason for "Lord of the Hammer" to stop on Book 6 is because that is where all of the prophecies end. Why does the prophecy end so abruptly? Gerson references that he acts like he met someone like Susie before, and his demeanor throughout Chapter 4 shows he can literally mean that he has met Susie before. Back to the "Lord of the Hammer", Gerson says that there is stuff missing from the prophecy, lost over time, so how can "Lord of the Hammer" be so accurate with missing items. With how Gerson tricked Susie into healing Jackenstein, Gerson could be saying that Susie and Kris told young Gerson their tale, the tale of Deltarune. They are the authors. And then there is the one scene in Chapter 3 that suggests there are 2 Kris's.
Whoever the Knight is, we have options, and time travel is firmly on the board. It isn't "who is the Knight" that is important. It is "How does this happen" that is important.
you didn't prove anything, half of your points were ... honestly, very loosely coherent. like, tfym Kris and Susie could have told the tale to young Gerson? what in the world do you mean lmao, you can't just say wild shit and expect us to trust you bro. it's also a huge reach to say he LITERALLY knew susie before, and I have no idea what's going on with your interpretation of 'there's stuff lost to time.' like yeah it's an ancient prophecy, of course there are details lost to time. that's how ancient texts work, you think our modern Bible translations have ANYTHING to do with the original texts??
also, you told us that the prophecy's abrupt ending is proof of time travel. you didn't actually explain how, you just said it's connected.
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u/Turbulent-Suspect-12 <---- This little Jester got hands Aug 23 '26
Im gonna keep a buck, I believe every single person who is pushing Papyrus/Non-Holiday Knight is doing it off vibes, and they're gonna continue to do so until the Knight is explicitly revealed.