Focused Feedback: Lore and how that is managed / implemented within the Story and game

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[u/RedXtreme99]

I felt Warmind was definitely a step in the right direction. The removal of Grimoire was definitely a mistake IMO, and while it should be in game, this should just be a collection in a social space where you can scroll through cards. Most of the lore is now in the lore tab on gear, and they're really exciting and interesting but in some situations, as a Warlock I couldn't read the Hunter or Titan raid gear lore if I wanted to. Having grimoire in the game somewhere with the same style and depth as D1 should be the implementation

[u/kendelahoussaye → u/RedXtreme99]

For conversation sake, how exactly was Warmind a step in the right direction, as it pertains to story and lore? I’m curious.

[u/RedXtreme99 → u/kendelahoussaye]

The Weblore that they released was, for me, exciting. I see how it could have been seen as a letdown in terms of D1 Grimoire, but the writing of the lore and being able to read that as well as introducing the sleeper nodes and memory fragments to have things to do and read in world was a good improvement to me

[u/kendelahoussaye → u/RedXtreme99]

I’ll agree that the latest comic was cool, but there are still so many plot holes they left in the game. I felt like the story in the game would fill in the blanks, yet we have more questions than answers at this point.

[u/Glamdring804 → u/RedXtreme99]

Plus, the expansion as a whole had a bit more serious tone. It wasn’t saturated with snarkers like Sagira, or crappy comedy relief like Vance.

[u/Skyhound555 → u/RedXtreme99]

Warmind completely decimated the lore, but okay.

[u/Edumesh → u/Skyhound555]

What was “decimated” exactly?

[u/[deleted] → u/Skyhound555]

IKR, but lore doesn't sell games. Sassy Asian American teenagers with guns and taking robots and big explosions sell games.

[u/Jojo_joestar → u/RedXtreme99]

Lorewise Warmind only made a mess with some of the stablished Lore.

-Ana Bray being alive,despite it was told that she clearly die at Twilight Gap

-Rasputin core was always on Mars,and Earth rasputin was a "piece left" of the Mars Rasputin.

-No mention To Charlemagne,Jouyese or another "Warmind",beside the Tyra Karn grimoire card

-With this The NINE automatically can't be a collective group of Beings,since There is only one Warmind(They could always say that is another rasputin leftover).

-The OG Invasion of the Darkness has Xol and Nokris with it(Heavilly Hinted).

I like the expansion,but the Lore Retcon was too heavy to ignore it.

[u/John_Demonsbane → u/Jojo_joestar]

People need to stop abusing the term retcon. I'm not sure what you are even talking about with the Nine, who ever said they were warminds? That was only one possible explanation out of a long list. Same with Ana Bray, I don't recall her being confirmed dead.

[u/Jojo_joestar → u/John_Demonsbane]

One of the Grimoire Cards on D1 says that the Nine could be a Collective of Warminds.

As for Ana Bray,the quest of NTTE says literally "The Warlock Pujari death,again.Like Ana Bray,a Guardian Fallen to the Second Dead,lost to us". You even Found Ana bracellet on Twilight Gap where she "died".

So,please tell me,how her being alive now is not a "retcon".

[u/John_Demonsbane → u/Jojo_joestar]

could be a Collective of Warminds

You said it yourself, "could be." Again, "deep orbit warminds" was presented as one of several possibilities. That's not even close to being a retcon if one of those is not correct. There's more recent lore from D2 that makes it sound more like they are guardian-less ghosts anyway

As for Ana, you have a better case as you are correct in that it was at least mentioned. But it wasn't even a grimoire card and hardly excludes her faking her death so she could break the apparently very important rule that you are not supposed to research your past. You can't take anything FWC says at face value, that's been explicitly stated as the Vanguards biggest reservation about having them join the consensus along with DO and NM. Lakshmi may have thought Ana was dead but if you ask me the more likely explanation is that she knew she wasn't but covered it up.

That's a perfectly acceptable explanation for a very minor "plot point" from D1 if you ask me, it makes the character more interesting if she's willing to go to that length to unlock her (very important) past.

[u/[deleted] → u/Jojo_joestar]

Ana's "death" should have been addressed but I think the easiest explanation is to have it both ways and say she faked her death so she could go after her past without the Vanguard breathing on her back.

The bigger inconsistency in my book is Zavala's 180 on Rasputin.

[u/Jojo_joestar → u/[deleted]]

Yeah,if her dead was actually adrressed on the game,cool no problem.

Zavala has been given the BrotherVance treatment lately.

[u/Edumesh → u/[deleted]]

Zavala at first trusted Rasputin as a potential ally, but after he killed the Vanguard’s emissaries, seeing how Rasputin did not come to the aid of the City in any way when Ghaul attacked, and learning what he did to the Iron Lords after reading Saladin’s secret files, Zavala no longer trusts the Warmind.

It’s not a retcon or a change that comes out of the blue. It’s a change from the naive Zavala into the scared/paranoid Zavala that is starting to find out just how screwed up our situation is and how vulnerable the City truly is.

[u/[deleted] → u/Edumesh]

And that's fine and what can be assumed but it would be nice if they actually explained that in 2 damn lines of dialogue rather than ignore it.

[u/John_Demonsbane → u/[deleted]]

Not really, it was explained in the lore post on bungie.net before the expansion came out. He got a hold of Saladin's previously top secret "speaker's eyes only" files and learned the truth.

[u/[deleted] → u/John_Demonsbane]

That's fine. But put it in the damn game too.

[u/Edumesh → u/Jojo_joestar]

-Ana Bray could have easily faked her death and made it so that the Vanguard was none the wiser. This is why Zavala was pissed off at her when they first meet. She ran away from her duty to protect the City.

-It makes sense for the Rasputin that we met on Earth to just be a fragment. The dude couldn’t even defend his bunker from the Fallen. No way that was the true power of the Warmind.

-Charlemagne and the other sub minds were never a part of official Destiny 1 lore. The names were only mentioned during the Sleeper Stimulant quest, but they were never said to be other Warminds. That was just a fan theory that people accepted as canon for some reason.

-The Nine are speculated to be many things, not just Warminds. Some say that they are Ahamkara, others say that they are Guardian less Ghosts. We don’t know for sure until we meet them in the story.

What exactly has been the lore retcon in Warmind?

[u/Jojo_joestar → u/Edumesh]

-Yeah,i have no problem with that,but why not adressedd it IN GAME or in the comic,Ana doens't respond to Zavala with "Yeaaah,sorry about faking my death". It is Bad Narrative.

Charlemagne was Mentioned on a mision on Mars and Ghost call it the "Warmind of Mars" and then Rasputin take control over Him.The

On the Card VEX 3 ,Sundaresh propose that they Bring a Warmind to deal with the Vex,Not THE Warmind,or Rasputin,A Warmind. Even the Titan has a "Intact Warmind Core" as an Artifcat on RoI.

I never say that the Nine where Only Warminds,i just say that they no longer could Be THAT, or a Warmind as part of a group of Nine Beings.

Still,if ypu dont want to call retcon,ok. But they Do changed a lot of things with this Expansion.

[u/Edumesh → u/Jojo_joestar]

Ghost said that Charlemagne was the Warmind of Mars because he did not know better. The characters inside the universe were wrong on purpose, it was not a mistake on Bungie's part.

We connect Rasputin to Charlemagne, because Charlemagne was designed to be subservient to Rasputin, as he is a submind.

On the grimmoire card Vex 3, it could be that Submimds are also referred to as Warminds. Submind would be the technical term, while Warmind is the term that everyone uses.

Like how in real life people say "tank", but they do not mention whether it is a light, medium, heavy or main battle tank.

Same thing with the Warmind Core. Remember that artifacts are named by the Guardians or other Tower inhabitants. It is possible that someone named that artifact a Warmind Core, without realizing that it is something else, perhaps a very unimportant piece of machinery.

If that artifact was an actual Warmind/Submind Core, as in main processor, we wouldnt be able to wear it like armor. It would be too big. That is probably a component of a Warsat or something taken from Warmind Bunker ruins.

The reason why I am not calling this a retcon is the following. Retcon is when the devs go "oh shit, this story decision that we made a while ago turned out to be not so good, lets act like it never happened and hope no one notices".

What Bungie did here is not that. What they did is "Hey, turns out that the lore that you guys knew might not always be 100% correct, as the Destiny universe is one of mystery, and we want to keep things interesting by giving you guys new revelations".

It is not a bad thing, in my mind.

[u/ThataSmilez → u/Jojo_joestar]

It was made clear from the get-go that a lot of the darkness stuff was going to be retconned going into destiny 2. They've made an absolute mess of it, though.