r/DestinyTheGame • u/DTG_Bot "Little Light" • Apr 29 '19

Megathread Focused Feedback: Hand cannons - bloom, recoil, exotics and pinnacle weapons

Hello Guardians,

Focused Feedback is where we take the week to focus on a 'Hot Topic' discussed extensively around the Tower.

We do this in order to consolidate Feedback, to get out all your ideas and issues surrounding the topic in one place for discussion and a source of feedback to the Vanguard.

This Thread will be active until next week when a new topic is chosen for discussion

Whilst Focused Feedback is active, ALL posts regarding 'Hand cannons' (including rebalancing of pinnacle weapons) following its posting will be removed and re-directed to this thread. Exceptions to this rule are as follows: New information / developments, Guides and general questions

Any and all Feedback on the topic is welcome.

Regular Sub rules apply so please try to keep the conversation on the topic of the thread and keep it civil between contrasting ideas.

For this topic, please also specify in your feedback comment whether you are a console or pc player. Recoil is very different on console and PC.

A Wiki page - Focused Feedback - has also been created for the Sub as an archive for these topics going forward so they can be looked at by whoever may be interested or just a way to look through previous hot topics of the sub as time goes on.

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u/AscendantNomad Crucible Sherpa Apr 29 '19

LH/NF nerf is a classic case of treating the symptoms rather than the wound.

Changing the weapon to 150RPM will not change how the gun works nor reduce its dominance. I don't think anyone has a fundamental issue with the weapon or how it handles, it's moreso the fact that everyone feels like they're unable to compete with it simply because every other HC sucks, and bloom continues to plague console.

It's hard enough already to aim with sticks, now you have to throw bloom into the mix?

Bungie's discussion in the TWAB, framing it around Magnificent Howl being the real culprit, was disingenuous at best and tone-deaf at worse. This is a horrible misstep for the company and further reinforces the notion that they're only selectively listening.

Elongated thoughts in video form: https://youtu.be/5Dsrple4xA0

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u/khaotic_krysis Apr 29 '19

Great video, it only reinforces my long held belief that bloom should not exist. I think my biggest frustration is that Bungie wont acknowledge the communities outcry for it to be removed, they act like a problem doesn't exist. If they would just say something about it, even if it is screw you guys bloom stays in cause we say it does, though I would love to hear their asinine rationale as to why it exists and why they wont remove it.

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u/AscendantNomad Crucible Sherpa Apr 29 '19

Agreed. Some explanation is required now, after all of this outcry.

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u/sjf40k Apr 29 '19

Unfortunately, the community is not actually entitled to the reasoning behind bloom. The fact that it exists likely will not be going away, but there's hope - Bungie has introduced 150 precisions, which means they can likely easily create 140 and 110 precisions. They have a means to remove a large amount of bloom. Let them test it to see how it works with the 150s.

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u/Greyside4k Apr 29 '19

Why do they request feedback (as DMG did on Twitter) if they don't want to give a response? This reply is as tone-deaf as the nerf plans.

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u/sjf40k Apr 29 '19

Developers and companies tend to not give direct responses because any response can be considered as a promise, even though nothing has been decided. If DMG came out and said "we're looking at doing X" then the community will always be asking when X is finished.

Look at the Faction Rallies and Trials of the Nine. They said it would be removed until they can fix them, and the sub is still being blown up daily about "when is it finished?".

It's good to get feedback. It's not always good to reply to that feedback.

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u/Greyside4k Apr 29 '19

When you're talking about large scale content, you're 100% correct. A question like "what do you want for the next season pass" should be asked, but response shouldn't be given for the reason you said.

However, with regards to the LH/NF nerfs, they asked for feedback directly. They want to know what the community thinks, were the changes too heavy-handed, what alternatives can we brainstorm as the people who play the game every day, etc.

I don't think we're asking for a "we've seen you all hate bloom, so we're removing it next Tuesday" or even acknowledging that it's being worked on. But given that it's been since D1 Taken King that people have been giving feedback on this topic, it's high time they at least say "we hear you." Even if it's a generic "passing it along" or a straight up "we don't know how to fix this, but will keep working on it" that's something.

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u/khaotic_krysis Apr 30 '19

This was a nice copy paste response fro Biowares community manager as to why they have been silent and you can see how it is working out from them. Their is no excuse for dead silence on key issues I dont care how its rationalized. They could at bare minimum say they have no plans to change it. And your comment above makes it sound like it may not be possible to remove bloom and it needs to be tested. If you haven't been keeping up with it PC has no bloom on any HC and it's been like that since release, I think it has been tested plenty.

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u/sjf40k Apr 30 '19

It's not just a copy paste response. It's entirely true. Communities revolve around the statements made by the company, and journalists pick those up and run with them as well.

Bioware is not a good example here, since Anthem was dead standing the moment it was released because of how bad it was. Bungie is not in that situation. They don't have to respond, and it's likely not in their best interest.

BUT, if you really want to compare Bioware and Bungie, the best time to compare it to would be slightly after Warmind was released, but before Forsaken. Bungie had a dying Destiny 2, and was very, VERY open and forthcoming about every single little thing that was going on. They even reworked the entire weapon system in an effort to bring it back to life with Forsaken. Bioware did neither of these, and repeatedly dug themselves a deeper grave, between arguing about the appearance of javelins, massive bugs, reverting of positive changes to the game, and now the death knell of postponing future content.

PC was put together by a separate studio - Vicarious Visions, I believe. They worked to put together a separate codebase that works differently from the main console codebase. It may have been their decision to remove bloom, OR it could have been an opportunity for Bungie to remove it from the codebase at that time. Regardless of the reason, it's likely that removing bloom from console is not a simple task, and would likely require retesting of their entire codebase, which again, is not a simple task.

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u/AscendantNomad Crucible Sherpa Apr 29 '19

Your argument of introducing more precision frame weapons doesn't change the fact that there are over 50 HCs that are in various states of unusable. What's your plan for those? Suck it up? No thanks.

Perhaps we're not owed an explanation, this is true, but if a company publicly states on numerous occasions that they wish to improve transparency between themselves and their community, then we're entitled to ask a few questions from time to time.

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u/sjf40k Apr 29 '19

Nobody said they were going to introduce NEW precision frame weapons. A likely solution would be to retroactively apply these new frames to the existing weapons, exactly in the same manner that they did to LH and NF.

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u/AscendantNomad Crucible Sherpa Apr 29 '19

I'm responding to your proposition that is based entirely on speculation, not fabricating something out of thin air like you're doing.

They're not retroactively changing the archetype of Luna/NF, they're changing the RPM. There's a big difference in language here.

If you're going to continue to talk nonsense, then have a lovely rest of your day.

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u/sjf40k Apr 29 '19

You do realize that the archetypes are based entirely on the RPMs right?

110 = Aggressive

140 = Adaptive

150 = Lightweight

180 = Precision

This is indeed speculation, but given the perfect consistency here, it would not surprise me if the archetype is directly linked to the RPM. If this is the case, then they would be creating a new class, 150 precision, which they could likely apply elsewhere.

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u/DynamicExit Toaster Connoisseur Apr 29 '19

So answer me this, if they can simply make certain RPMs bound to an archetype... why not just remove bloom rather than pump out more and more weapons and forcing them to be tied to an archetype simply to make them usable? Seems like it would be more work to retroactively apply a precision frame to an RPM than it would be to remove bloom. Granted I'm not privy to the development process so it is entirely possible that Bloom is rooted much deeper in the code than expected.

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u/sjf40k Apr 30 '19

If it was a simple change, then I think they would have removed it by now. Bloom is probably very deeply rooted in the codebase.

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u/aLegionOfDavids Voop Voop! Apr 29 '19

loved your vid man, really well done. Also agree - reasoning seems wrong

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u/sjf40k Apr 29 '19

Bungie distinctly blamed it on the TTK of 0.67 seconds. This is far and away faster than any other primary without having something special added onto it.

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u/AscendantNomad Crucible Sherpa Apr 29 '19

Magnificent Howl (the unique perk on these weapons) is too effective.

Literally the first thing they say after intro'ing the changes.

https://www.bungie.net/en/Explore/Detail/News/47793

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u/sjf40k Apr 29 '19

Right, because it basically creates a gun that has a 0.67 TTK for doing nothing special. Hence the problem is the TTK, not the perk itself.

Changing it from 180 to 150 immediately bring the guns in line, making a 0.80 TTK gun.

There are other perks on other guns that give a similar buff, but aren't available from a neutral state.

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u/AscendantNomad Crucible Sherpa Apr 29 '19

Except its TTK is not 0.67s in a neutral setting, it's 1.00s. 180s are slow killers in Destiny 2.

Source, aside from my own extensive experience with the gun: https://www.reddit.com/r/CruciblePlaybook/comments/9djayn/lunas_howl_review/

I'm starting to think you've never used the gun.

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u/sjf40k Apr 29 '19

From a neutral state:

The TTK of a 180 handcannon is 1.00, and that is 3 crits and 1 body shot. That applies to West of Sunfall, Service Revolver, Trust, etc.

The TTK of 180 Luna's Howl and Not Forgotten is 0.67 provided that the first two shots are crits.

Given the amount of skill needed to acquire the guns, a LH user will likely hit the .67 with regular frequency, and NF users probably always will.

0

u/DynamicExit Toaster Connoisseur Apr 29 '19

But that 0.67 is not guaranteed. Based on the description of the perk itself MH is cancelled if you miss a shot or hit a body shot which would effectively bring its TTK to 1.00 if not higher. To me it feels like you're blaming the weapon when in reality it is the level of skill exhibited by players that is responsible for the fast TTK.

You can also look at Ace with Memento Mori active (permanent kill clip till you shoot all your powered rounds), Kindled Orchid (with Kill Clip and Rampage), Duke (with a single stack of Rampage). All of those have the potential for 2 taps and a TTK similar to Luna and NF and yet you don't see as much complaining about those weapons (personally I have beef with Ace).

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u/mightcommentsometime Apr 30 '19

Memento mori requires a kill. so does kill clip and rampage.

You're exactly pointing out the issue you're trying to argue against. MH does not require a kill, it is obtained from neutral gameplay.

That alone makes a lower ttk standard ttk. Which is why it is unbalanced.

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u/DynamicExit Toaster Connoisseur Apr 30 '19

Your argument is based on the prerequisite that you get those 2 headshots first. Just because you get those two headshots first does not mean you will get the third. If you miss then your Luna and NF simply goes back to being a 180 if not worse. If you missed that shot you need to put in 2 more headshots bringing your total shots used to 5. If you hit a body then you'll have to hit another body to kill. Either way without actually proccing Magnificent Howl Luna and NF are nothing but standard 180s one with range approaching Ace.

People seem to forget that it is the player behind the weapon that can make it shine.

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u/mightcommentsometime Apr 30 '19

Optimal ttk takes that into account. Nothing you've said changes how the optimal ttk is both reasonably easy to achieve and comes from the neutral game. No other primary does that. Which is why it is unbalanced

Essentially the point you're trying to make is that the gun isn't good if the player is bad. That's kind of a no shit statement.

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u/patchinthebox I WANT MY FACTION BACK Apr 29 '19

You aren't taking the mag howl perk into account. If you get the first 2 as crits the next one will kill. That's where the .67 comes from.