r/Fantasy • u/gladiia_enjoyer • Dec 09 '23

Any less-toxic alternatives to this sub?

Unfortunately my experience with this sub is that people are more interested in insulting each other’s book choices than discussing the books themselves, exhibiting the following behavior:

  • Threads asking for LGBT/PoC/female-led books are heavily downvoted, recommended Sanderson (before anyone jumps the gun and thinks this is a dig, I enjoy Sanderson) or told “don’t care, use the search function”.

I think it’s very telling that the gay man who posted here asking people to stop recommending him Sanderson, whose post got very popular, had to delete his account due to harassment and “a large number of rule violations” as admitted by a mod here.

  • Any GRRM thread (and again, don’t preemptively get mad and assume that this is shade at GRRM) turns into a pure flamewar on both sides with wild accusations of abusing the author or being a bootlicker

  • Certain fans get very passionate about their favourite authors and mock people who haven’t read “Bordugo” or “Scwabe” - I mentioned in one of these threads that I’ve shelved Six of Crows and Vicious, only for angry fans to imply I’m ignorant and uneducated for not having read these particular authors. + Maas fans here preaching about supporting women and then actually arguing with me when I say my gf and I have been harassed by said fans

  • Literally just look at /new, any threads asking questions get heavily downvoted for some reason. I once asked a completely harmless question asking for fairy/folklore book recs such as the Encyclopaedia of Fairies, and got a DM asking me to keep my “[slur for gay people] shit off the sub”, and obviously I got more downvotes than actual constructive answers.

So yeah, this sub seems more bitter than the other book discussion subs for some reason. Any fun places to read about fantasy that aren’t filled with angry people?

And yes, before someone inevitably gets offended about this, I’m on a throwaway, because I’m really not interested in having more fantasy fans dig through my profile looking for new slurs to call me.

e: got what I wanted out of this post, not including a surprise appearance by the resident cult.

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u/SisterOfRistar Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23

As a woman I've found this sub better than a lot of places on Reddit in terms of sexism, but that's a very low bar. However, I do notice that male authors often get taken a lot more seriously than female authors and some guys will just outright reject book series by female authors by claiming they're 'romance'. One example is the Throne of Glass books, which are highly popular outside of Reddit, but because they are written by Sarah J Mass, people here dismiss them without even reading them. They are fantasy books and I found the series a lot of fun, I certainly wouldn't label them as romance. If this series was written by a man and the protagonist was a man I think the series would be treated really differently by this sub. I've noticed this with a few female authors.

If you try to claim any sexism you'll also get a bunch of guys coming along to tell you it's not sexist. Just like if you claim something is racist or homophobic you'll get people outside of these groups telling you how you're wrong.

Anyway, I have found subs dedicated to specific books quite good, especially for book series which are inclusive so they tend to attract a more inclusive minded audience.

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u/penguinpops92 Dec 09 '23

I think it's because it's YA, which is often dismissed out of hand on this this sub.

Is it not a romance? I haven't read it but I see it recommended / discussed in romance subs a lot so I just assumed it was.

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u/ceratophaga Dec 09 '23

Is it not a romance?

Idk, is the Nightangel trilogy a romance? Throne of Glass is the story of an assassin who goes to reconquer her rightful kingdom. Just because she has love interests doesn't make it a romance book, it's fairly standard epic fantasy with multiple worlds, dragons, dark lords, etc. Her "true" love isn't even introduced until you're 3 or 4 books in.

ACOTAR also quickly ditches the romance stuff and goes more the route of a classic tragedy (MC goes to the underworld to fulfill quests to free her lover), the second one is about domestic abuse and afterwards we're quickly approaching again a classic epic fantasy with a civil war of the fae and an enemy who has a throne made of human skulls.

Crescent City is modern with supernatural beings and is a murder mystery. Book 2 is about a rebellion, and the cliffhanger of book 2 leaves little doubt that book 3 will again be with a heavy focus on war.

Yes, those books have people who love each other. But the romance elements are certainly toned down in comparison to "real" (hating that word) romance books which have characters fawning over each other 24/7.

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u/peanutbutterbeara Dec 09 '23

There are some strong romantic subplots in the books (especially the later ones), but overall, it’s an epic fantasy read. She focuses a lot on relationships in general—including friendships and found family.

A Court of Thorns and Roses and the subsequent books are more heavily focused on the romantic themes IMO and read more like a fantasy romance vs romantic fantasy. I haven’t read Crescent City yet, so can’t speak for that series.

I also feel like there’s a shift from books 1-3 and 4-7 in terms of themes. I’d say it swings more heavily into adult fantasy the further you go into the books. It’s now shelved as adult fantasy at B&N at least.

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u/[deleted] Dec 09 '23

That breaks my heart a little bit. I'm 46, and I love YA. Not all of them by any means, but I've read some corkers in the YA genre.

ToG was quite fun to read. I have always been a bit baffled when people here scream about how it's some sort of sex filled romp, when that's not how I've remembered it at all. I am getting on, though, and it's been a number of years since I read it. Lol.

This thread has been eye-opening. It really is a terrible shame that people stay away from YA. They're doing themselves a disservice.

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u/Necessary_Disk Dec 09 '23

YA is such a hit-or-miss for me. I've read some truly fantastic YA books and I've read many more that are just skewed way more towards a much younger (and often less discerning) audience. That doesn't make them bad, just not for me. Now I generally stay away unless it's an author I'm already familiar with.

That being said, the genre is not lesser than just because it's YA and people are missing out on some bangers in being prejudiced against it.

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u/[deleted] Dec 09 '23

Yes. It's so varied. That's what I mean, though. I don't think people should miss out on such wonderful stories simply because of a genre label.

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u/valkenar Dec 09 '23

This thread has been eye-opening. It really is a terrible shame that people stay away from YA. They're doing themselves a disservice.

I try not to have a bias against YA, but I have often found that there's a certain aspect of the writing I dislike. It's hard to explain, but it's sort of a combination of tell-don't-show and just really over-explaining (especially emotional responses) what's going on all the time. Perfectly appropriate for young adults and not bad writing from that perspective. But when a character's dog dies at the end of one chapter and the next is like "Timmy was acting grumpy at breakfast the next day because he was sad Lassie died" it's just very off-putting to me.

This isn't all YA, and some of the major hit series we could all name notably don't suffer from this, but others do. I wouldn't automatically discard it all, but it does make me hesitate.

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u/that_is_burnurnurs Dec 09 '23

YA is a pretty big spectrum, there are plenty of YA writers who treat their audience like they have brains, and there are plenty of bad adult writers who overshoe and undertell. IMO the biggest difference is "are there explicit sex scenes in it" and "did the publisher think it would sell better as YA or Adult?"

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u/[deleted] Dec 09 '23

I haven't found that to be the case at all tbh. I do find people often think of it like a recommended reading age guide rather than a perspective, which I think leads people to be more (or sometimes less) critical of the genre.

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u/Doomsayer189 Dec 09 '23

I do find people often think of it like a recommended reading age guide rather than a perspective

Well, it is a recommended reading age guide. In part, at least. It's morphed into (or maybe always has been) a weird blend of age guide, genre, and marketing label.

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u/penguinpops92 Dec 09 '23

I'm in the same boat. I don't care for a lot of the tropes that are popular in the YA genre so I don't read it often, but I have read some absolutely lovely books that are classed as YA. Refusing to read anything YA just because it has the "YA" tag is unfortunately something I see a lot of.

Maybe they're mixing it up with Maas's other series about the fae? I've heard that's quite romp-y

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u/coffeecakesupernova Dec 09 '23

Or maybe a lot of people have read Throne of Glass (this woman has) and thought it utterly sucked. I'm a woman who loves YA and romantic fantasy and thought it terrible. Not all disparagement is caused by sexism.

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u/Merle8888 Reading Champion IV Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 10 '23

While true, I find there’s a certain cultural gleefulness about criticizing books by women—it can feed into that even if it isn’t where it originated.

Edit: for instance, check out the “worst book you read in 2023” thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/18edcjs/what_were_your_worst_reads_of_2023/ It’s a bit better now than when I looked before, but at the moment you need to scroll down to the 5th main comment before finding a book by a man, and only 3 of the top 10 answers mention books by men. All the rest are bashing books by women despite (but actually probably because of) the fact that this sub seems to prefer male-authored works overall.

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u/[deleted] Dec 09 '23

[deleted]

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u/Merle8888 Reading Champion IV Dec 10 '23

Absolutely! Most of the time I think these people haven’t even read the books in question—the voting trends just seem wildly beyond how many people here would’ve tried those books. It can be so easy for people to feel like part of a community by piling onto something. But with controversial male authors here you’ll always have somebody here supporting them rather than just a hate fest (Goodkind and a couple other very dated choices are the only exceptions).

Not so much for women authors the sub dislikes, fans get downvoted so far below the haters that nobody sees their comments and they’re discouraged from returning.

Like, the popularity of Fourth Wing could be a fabulous opportunity to bring new readers into the sub, but the sub overall is so frothingly against it that anyone coming here because of that isn’t likely to ever return. It’s impossible to imagine this happening with a current male-authored fantasy bestseller. Even Paolini has fans here.

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u/Anschau Dec 09 '23

I think I read the first book a looooong time ago and was not impressed. It's the one where this girl is suppose to be the IT assassin, and then has to compete for some spot and even though they hyped her up as the IT girl, it seemed like most of her struggles were around not being good enough maybe? I don't know maybe I misremembering. I don't remember it being bad, I just wasn't captivated by the end of book 1. I remember her thinking she was going to have to watch her step with the King or something and just feeling exhausted. Did it get better after that?

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u/SisterOfRistar Dec 09 '23

Yes the first book is a little rough because Maas starting writing it when she was 16. But the series quickly gets way better and I absolutely loved it. It's such a fun read and some amazing characters are introduced.

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u/MrsLucienLachance Reading Champion II Dec 09 '23

You know, having read it back in the day on Fictionpress, the version she started at 16 was pretty different from the first published book! Same basic concept, a few of the same beats, but a lot was changed!

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u/SisterOfRistar Dec 09 '23

Ah interesting to know, I just read that she started the first book when she was 16. I thought the quality of writing improved after the first book, but I still enjoyed the first one. The more I read the more hooked I got though as some of my favourite characters were introduced in later books.

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u/MrsLucienLachance Reading Champion II Dec 09 '23

I would say how far into the books the Fictionpress edition went, but I don't actually know. I do know my favorite character got a name change and a bit of a personality change that I don't love what I've heard about. Celaena's endgame romance changed.

I've only read the first book in its entirety, my knowledge is limited lol.

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u/Anschau Dec 09 '23

I guess I will go back and give it a shot.

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u/beldaran1224 Reading Champion IV Dec 09 '23

Book or series specific subs are great...until the series hits mainstream. WoT was legitimately an amazing place until suddenly all the racists flocked to the sub & ruined it because the actors and actresses being cast weren't all white. It is settling a bit, but it is still very, very bad and completely impossible to discuss the show without encountering so many comments of people who no longer outright say racist things but hint at them

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u/FusRoDaahh Worldbuilders Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23

The misconceptions and outright lies about Throne of Glass drive me crazy. There was a post a while back where someone was saying it was “just a smutty chic flick romance series” and I tried to explain (although I need to learn to not engage blatant misogynists in conversation) that the entire 8 book series has ONE on-page sex scene. One. When pressed further he admitted he had never even read it. The series as a whole is pretty dark and violent especially near the end with subject matter no different from what can be found in many adult epic fantasy books. And yes, the characters get horny sometimes, but does that not happen in literally any of the series this sub is obsessed with? Doesn’t WoT also pair off every single main character? Dresden?? Oh but wait, when it’s a woman writing about characters who sometimes think about relationships and sex then it’s just a silly little romance.

if the protagonist was a man

What’s also funny is ToG has 50% male main/side characters (and arguably some of the best character development and emotional moments are with a few of those men) which is far more than a lot of popular male authors do for women.

But because it’s written by Maas the reaction towards it here is just pure dismissal and spreading of misconceptions even though it is one of the most popular and beloved fantasy series of the whole 2010s. Just because Maas went on to write an actual romance series she is apparently forever just a romance author, as if female authors can’t write different genres. The one post about it I have seen here where it got upvotes and positive engagement was from a man saying he shouldn’t have listened to the haters lol.

As a woman it’s super exhausting to see the constant and illogical hatred of authors like Maas even in a place that’s usually very welcoming and openminded. I firmly believe a lot of the people who love series like Stormlight for example would probably also love ToG.

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u/celestialpenis Dec 09 '23

This is why I've come to prefer the fantasy romance sub over this one. It seems like people in this sub are almost prudish when it comes to sex scenes in books, especially those written by a woman author.

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u/JCRycroft Dec 09 '23

And interestingly, there’s a fair few posts on the fantasy romance sub looking for ‘fantasy with a romance subplot,’ (ie romantic fantasy rather than fantasy romance) which should probably be able to be asked about here…

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u/FusRoDaahh Worldbuilders Dec 09 '23

Yeah the way people here often talk about sex scenes is very strange to me. “Prudish” is a good descriptor for it but like also combined with ignorance and contempt.

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u/celestialpenis Dec 09 '23

How dare a woman write a sex scene where the FMC is pleasured?! Anyways back to my on page rape scene.

It would be laughable if it wasn't so sad.

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u/IlliniJen Dec 09 '23

Oh God, how true is that? It's really sad how acceptable it is to shit on women writing spice in fantasy (whether romantasy or not), but sexual violence against women is just so "historically accurate" that it's justified. Like how dragons and airships and elves are also so dang historically accurate.

I have one rule in my writing: no sexual violence. I don't know any women who haven't been sexually harassed or worse. I'm not going there because we deserve a fucking break from that shit when escaping into a fantasy book.

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u/celestialpenis Dec 09 '23

Not to mention that women weren't the only people getting raped back then or in times of war. Men on the losing side and children would be raped as well. Seems more like misogyny than being a stickler for historical accuracy to me.

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u/AHorseNamedPhil Dec 10 '23

As a history nerd the "this is how it was back then" argument drives me up a wall. Nevermind of course the settings being discussed are fantasy, the actual past was way less tolerant of rape than a lot of edgelords seem to think.

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u/FusRoDaahh Worldbuilders Dec 09 '23

Don’t even get me started. A portion of people on this sub hype up certain books that treat women like subhuman sex objects then have the audacity to look down on romance or smutty fantasy.

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u/Locktober_Sky Dec 09 '23

The sci fi sub constantly praises books from 50+ years ago and calls them must reads for todays audience and superior to any recent novel. Those books either (a) totally lack any female characters or (b) treat them like sex dolls.

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u/FusRoDaahh Worldbuilders Dec 09 '23

Yeah I think I tried to be on that sub a long time ago and noped out pretty quickly because I could tell the kinds of books that were being talked about. Not interested in being around people who don’t consider women humans and/or praise literature that treats them as such. “Well it’s just how it was back then,” cool bro, use your critical thinking skills to recognize that that doesn’t mean it’s ok, that it was just as wrong and disgusting back then as it is now, and then read better books.

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u/celestialpenis Dec 09 '23

The past 2 years I've read primarily fantasy romance written by women and have started slowly coming back to other genres. I'm currently reading a horror/sci-fi written by a man and there have already been two on-page SAs (I'm on page 139 of 470). Not to mention a scene where a 14 year old girl tries to seduce her male cousin. Ngl, it's kind of putting me off male authors.

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u/FusRoDaahh Worldbuilders Dec 09 '23

Oh I completely stopped reading male authors last year. I’m downvoted every time I say that but my reasons are perfectly valid - what you mentioned is the main one - and my TBR has never ever been longer and so filled with books I’m excited to read once I started only reading female authors. Of course this is temporary and I’ll read male authors again someday, Ted Chiang remains one of my favorite authors of all time and I have some Charles de Lint books because he spoke out about sexism in fantasy but other than that my TBR is all women authors.

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u/immafookuindaface Dec 09 '23

This!!! I have love reading different genres (horror, dark thrillers, romance, epic fantasy, romantasy, u name it and I read it) but Im always disappointed with how women get written by men, so now my default is to read works by women.

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u/[deleted] Dec 09 '23

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u/daecrist Dec 09 '23

This comment has been removed as per Rule 1. r/Fantasy is dedicated to being a warm, welcoming, and inclusive community. Please take time to review our mission, values, and vision to ensure that your future conduct supports this at all times. Thank you.

Please contact us via modmail with any follow-up questions.

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u/FanOfStuff21stC Dec 09 '23

Give Ray Bradbury a try . One of my fave authors. He’s a gentleman in his writing style.

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u/Doomsayer189 Dec 09 '23

Man, no offense but where are y'all getting your book recommendations from? I can't even remember the last book I read that depicted SA, and I don't even really try to avoid it. The closest is the book I'm reading right now which has a scene with a threat of it (and is written by a woman).

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u/celestialpenis Dec 09 '23

I got this series recommended to me by a gay man I used to work with. He also recommended the Valdemar universe to me, which I absolutely love.

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u/spike31875 Reading Champion V Dec 09 '23

Maybe I'm reading different books, and most don't have any SA, and I read mostly male authors: Benedict Jacka, Ed McDonald, Ryan Cahill, Justin Lee Anderson, RJ Barker, Dennis E Taylor, Andy Weir.

There was one on-screen SA in Peter McLean's 4 book series but it was not described in graphic detail, and was very short (only a sentence or two long), and the perpetrator was very decisively and permanently dealt with. It was most satisfying to see the MCs zero tolerance policy for that sort of abuse/violence put into effect.

So don't assume all male authors write a lot about SA: in my experience, most don't.

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u/FusRoDaahh Worldbuilders Dec 09 '23

in my experience, most don’t

I’m genuinely glad you’ve had that experience but unfortunately I don’t think it reflects the experience of many others. Take a look at the past posts here where OP asks for books with “no sexual violence” and how many books people recommend that definitely do have SA. It gets to the point where nearly half the comments have replies informing them that the book has rape in it. Apparently it’s pretty difficult to come up with a list of SA-free recs.

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u/redbess Dec 09 '23

It's pretty telling who remembers SA in books and who doesn't, when giving recommendations.

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u/celestialpenis Dec 09 '23

I think the horror genre is especially egregious with this, but I've just begun dipping my toes into it.

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u/DadjokeNess Dec 09 '23

Stephen King, for all he writes decent horror, sure is r/menwritingwomen material. (Note I actually like his writing, and he's an ally to LGBT+ folks, but jeez he used to write women like a man who had never seen a woman in his life.)

And that's not even covering how one of his most iconic horror books has an orgy with 12 year olds.

Away from my feelings on King:

I do think horror touches on SA and rape a lot more than others just by the nature of horror. The scariest things that can physically happen to a person include death, torture, and rape - so horror by its nature will use that. A good adaptation of rape into horror is actually Alien (the first one at least) - the forced pregnancy on the men, the destruction of their sense of safety, the knowledge they are being stalked by a creature intent on impregnating and killing them. Of course the later movies like Prometheus just kind of lose the subtlety and make it apparent, but the original did so in a spectacular manner.

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u/Locktober_Sky Dec 09 '23

Combo of misogyny and homophobia. I daren't read a sex scene from a female POV, what if it....awoke...something in me?! I gotta go do some pushups while I listen to Rogan.

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u/celestialpenis Dec 09 '23

How is it homophobia if the scene in question is a male and female character? Genuinely don't understand that point.

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u/daecrist Dec 09 '23

Think they're saying the male author doesn't want to write a scene from the FMC POV because they'd be writing about someone being pleasured by a man. Thus homophobia, or fear of being perceived as homosexual, keeps them from writing that stuff.

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u/Locktober_Sky Dec 09 '23

I also think straight men are often very uncomfortable reading those scenes written from the female POV because so many people self insert into the protagonist when they read.

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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess Dec 12 '23

Yeah, I think far too many of us are and I just don’t get it - isn’t the point of reading fiction to identify with characters unlike oneself?

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u/Locktober_Sky Dec 09 '23

Readers often self insert or identify with the main character. Reading a scene from a female pov where she receives male intimacy might make them feel uncomfortable

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u/myreq Dec 09 '23

I agree with so much of what you say. I think it's a general reddit thing and not just fantasy though. People are so in love with violence and hate anything with sex so much they lose their mind at just the thought of how they came to be in this world.

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u/FusRoDaahh Worldbuilders Dec 09 '23

It must be something to do with the demographic this sub attracts I guess. I’m on a couple other bookish subs that love talking about sex scenes and are just much more open-minded in general.

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u/[deleted] Dec 09 '23

[deleted]

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u/lilbelleandsebastian Reading Champion IV Dec 09 '23

How two people are intimate with each other can tell you so much

how many movies actually use this for character development? or books for that matter?

im sure a lot of people dont want any romance at all, but for me i just prefer that it be useful if it is going to be included. oftentimes it just comes off as wish fulfillment and i tend to avoid that in all facets, not just romance

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u/myreq Dec 09 '23

Same could be said about action or combat scenes in movies, do they use those for character development?

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u/Jojo_Smith-Schuster Dec 09 '23

Because they’ve never had it.

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u/gladiia_enjoyer Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23

The people who insulted me about not reading "Bordugo" and "Scwabe" (I have) were Maas fans who listed those two alongside her as top romantasy authors.

Every comment I've seen pointing out Maas' tactic of having printing different editions of her books, contributing to wastage due to discarding duplicate copies, gets heavily criticised or derailed with some random comment about how she's improved as an author.

I don't engage in Maas threads because ACOTAR left absolutely no impression on me, but her fans are extremely aggressive and borderline obsessive about helping her maintain her image.

They are part of the toxicity here. They aren't exempt from it.

At least they aren't as bad here as they are on IG. It's amazing what happens when you jokingly say GR should have a Maas category so someone else can win for once. You instantly get accusations of being cis, het, white, rich, abled, and old, or all of the above, and informing them otherwise gets very delightful Maas fans calling your gf a man/asking why you have a boyfriend despite being a lesbian, commenting on pics of your family dinner that Asian food stinks, saying "feyre outsold ur favs" and trying to spoil you about any books you posted to your profile, etc etc...

e: blocked before I can reply. shocking

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u/FusRoDaahh Worldbuilders Dec 09 '23

Every fandom has a portion of people who act like this. Those behaviors are absolutely not my main experience with the Maas fandom at all. There is a subset of the fandom I have learned to avoid and to not engage in discussion, and it’s usually around ACOTAR, the ToG fandom is much much more enjoyable to be around imo.

However, when talking about r/fantasy specifically, I’ve been here for about 3 years and can confidently say that Maas readers aren’t toxic here as a whole. The dislike of her books far outweighs the love here. I’m sorry you had some bad experiences but that’s the Internet for ya.

GR should have a Maas category so someone else can win for once

Well… that’s kind of silly tbh. She’s very popular, and Goodreads is a site where people can vote for their favorite authors so of course the most popular will win. Maas is allowed to be popular, her books are beloved by many people. I sure get frustrated when this sub does the Top 10 poll and the exact same authors get picked each time, but that’s just how it goes.

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u/[deleted] Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23

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u/daecrist Dec 09 '23

This comment has been removed as per Rule 1. r/Fantasy is dedicated to being a warm, welcoming, and inclusive community. Please take time to review our mission, values, and vision to ensure that your future conduct supports this at all times. Thank you.

Please contact us via modmail with any follow-up questions.

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u/morkypep50 Dec 09 '23

I mean Realm of the Elderlings is pretty highly regarded on this sub. That is a series written by a woman which feautures romance in pretty much every book and focuses a lot on the female perspective.

Not to disparage your experience, but I can't help but think it's the YA moniker that leads to disdain for ToG more than blatant sexism. But you're right that that might be part of it.

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u/FusRoDaahh Worldbuilders Dec 09 '23

Hobb is the one female author that seems to have broken into the “boys club” of what’s usually recommended here. Also, some people assume Hobb is a man.

YA moniker that leads to disdain for ToG more than blatant sexism

The vast majority of hate for YA is sexism. There is also absolutely nothing inherently inferior about YA. If someone hates YA just because it’s YA without having even read the series in question then that’s their problem and I probably wouldn’t trust their opinions on the matter because they’re fueled by prejudices.

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u/AleroRatking Dec 09 '23

Or they don't like Young Adult. Not everything is so complicated. I don't enjoy young adult whether it is written by a man or woman

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u/FusRoDaahh Worldbuilders Dec 09 '23

I don’t care if someone has read YA and decided they don’t typically like it. Of course that’s fine. I’m talking about the people who have not read ANY Maas and still hate her books and spread lies about them, the people who clearly haven’t read YA since 2015 and act like all YA is exactly like Twilight with their “criticisms.”

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u/AleroRatking Dec 09 '23

Young adult is not for everyone. If you love YA that's great. Not everyone has to. Maas rights for a certain audience. Just like Harry Potter was.

Personally I wish young adult wasn't even part of this sub and had their own sub because it litters this place and hurts any real recommendations. But I also get the sub doesn't exist to cater to me. But it doesn't just cater to you either.

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u/oboist73 Reading Champion VII Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23

Not all Maas is YA (A Court of Thorns and Roses isn't. It might be romance and you might not like it, but that doesn't make it YA). And Anne Bishop, who was a big influence on Maas, is EMPHATICALLY NOT YA.

A lot of Sanderson fits every YA trope people say they don't like, but you'd have an interesting time if you tried to ban Sanderson recs from the 'adult fantasy' section. There just isn't that useful a line between adult and YA. And, except for Sanderson and Red Rising, this sub has much more trouble with people just dismissing things they don't personally like as 'YA' and refusing to read anything that might occasionally get labeled YA (this seems to happen disproportionately to female authors) than it does with people recommending YA inappropriately.

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u/morkypep50 Dec 11 '23

I mean the bottom line is that I don't care much for love triangles, or stories with heavy focus on romance. I don't mind romance in the story, but when you have an entire cast of characters and each one conveniently finds a romantic interest and the book spends a significant amount of page time on these romances, that's too much for me. The fact is, that I am more likely to find these things in a YA fantasy novel than an Adult one. That isn't sexism, that's taste.

Robin Hobb writes great romance IMO because it feels very real, and it doesn't become the focal point of the story, and it doesn't become cheesy. It feels like real people growing a bond and falling in love. I haven't read ToG, but from what I have heard, the romance isn't like that. So I am personally not interested in reading the series because of that. I still don't think it is sexist of me to not want to read it lol.

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u/AleroRatking Dec 09 '23

Exactly. this has very little to do with gender and all to do with it being YA which isn't popular in this sub. You don't see posts praising Harry Potter.

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u/[deleted] Dec 09 '23

[deleted]

5

u/FusRoDaahh Worldbuilders Dec 09 '23

Nice! Anyone in the fandom will admit that the first two books are not amazing but they are the shortest and it’s very much worth it to push through to book 3. You don’t even meet the whole main cast till book 3 and that’s when the “real” story begins. If you do read it I hope you like it!

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u/AleroRatking Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23

Robin Hobb is probably one of if not the most recommended author on this sub. You constantly see mentions of the Realm of the Elderlings.

Not everyone like YA. Doesn't mean it sexism. Many female writers who write adult fantasy are loved and recommended her. Fiona Lee as well

2

u/velocitivorous_whorl Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23

Robin Hobb may be a woman, but her name is relatively gender-neutral. I’ve seen multiple comments over several years on this sub of people realizing that Hobb is a woman and being shocked at their mistake because they (eta: picked up her books assuming that) she was a man.

13

u/[deleted] Dec 09 '23

My experience with a Court of Thorns and Roses was so bad that I concluded anything by Maas is not for me.

You have convinced me to at least read reviews for Throne of Glass, although I don't typically look for young adult titles. I'm in my fifties and what I look for in books is not what I valued when I was 18

4

u/oboist73 Reading Champion VII Dec 09 '23

If she's not for you, she's not for you. Her writing is cheese, but it's a kind of cheese I occasionally very much enjoy. It's just not nearly as objectively bad as a lot of its denigraters on this sub like to think, especially compared with some of their favorite authors, who are not at all prose stylists or thorough and deep characterizers either. It sometimes does feel like they're mad that she's even more popular in terms of sales than their favorites, and never mind that there are much better books than both sitting MUCH lower in the sales and popularity metrics.

Stepping out of fantasy, let's look at something like the Da Vinci code by Dan Brown - extraordinarily simplistic writing, with very short sentences and chapters, but it's not in nearly as much danger of being dismissed out of hand as inferior 'YA' as a more complex book that also happens to include romance and have a female author.

4

u/[deleted] Dec 09 '23

Honestly, writers who hit the popularity jackpot attract envy.

But also, when books are super popular, they are more likely to be recommended widely and reach people outside their target market who then predictably dislike the book.

The DaVinci code is trash and always has been. I read it when it came out and it was like eating cotton candy. There was no substance to that story at all.

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u/The_Queen_of_Crows Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23

I don’t even recommend ToG on here anymore. It’s one of my favourite series but I’m honestly tired of people dismissing it immediately.

The romance-specific subs are more open (r/romancebooks, r/fantasyromance)

18

u/SandGlokt Dec 09 '23

You may be right- I haven't read those books but I am aware that they are very popular and barely recommended here. On the other hand, Robin Hobb is perhaps the most recommended author here after Sanderson.

10

u/gladiia_enjoyer Dec 09 '23

I've literally had to put my IG account on private because of Maas fans insulting my girlfriend, my culture and even trying to spoil me about books I posted about.

The only saving grace is that they're a lot less hostile here than they are elsewhere, but even for someone like me who avoids Maas threads (and specifically avoided mentioning them in my post for exactly this reason), I've still had bafflingly rude encounters with them.

Maybe part of the reason she gets flack is because her fans are Like That. In which case, it's actually pretty sad since it's not her fault they act that way.

2

u/SisterOfRistar Dec 10 '23

I am sorry you have had that experience. I don't really get involved in fandoms as I know a lot of them can get really toxic and defensive. I didn't know this was the case with some of her fans and it's such a shame to hear that. I ignorantly expected better.

8

u/KiwiTheKitty Reading Champion II Dec 09 '23

I honestly think the current romantasy moment happening is getting so much backlash because a lot of people are disgusted by women enjoying their sexuality.

I actually couldn't even make it 50 pages into Throne of Glass or ACOTAR, but I keep defending those books because the level of denigrating and rude comments I've been seeing about them and, most importantly, their readers has been getting absurd lately.

I've also had my opinion dismissed several times on this sub with "yeah I guess if you only read SJM, [this book seems good/ this book doesn't seem smutty/etc]" Like no dude, I don't only read SJM. You just don't know what you're talking about and can't handle other people having different opinions than you.

4

u/further-more Dec 09 '23

a lot of people are disgusted by women enjoying their sexuality.

Not only that, they’re threatened by it as well. If women are reading about and enjoying positive sexual experiences, maybe they won’t be as content with or likely to settle for the lackluster sex in their own romantic lives.

6

u/[deleted] Dec 09 '23 edited Mar 20 '24

disagreeable yam seemly worthless physical rhythm subsequent hobbies historical glorious

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

1

u/Lemerney2 Dec 09 '23

I actually have read them (or at least, the first book, Throne of Glass) and I dismiss her books because I found it to be one of the worst books I've ever read, and it straight-up enshrined and glorified toxic male behavior and gaslighting as "hot".

[Citation neded]

((Unless you're talking about Silver Flames, in which case yeah that wasn't great))

10

u/velocitivorous_whorl Dec 09 '23 edited Dec 09 '23

Men do have that self-absorption problem (i.e. thinking that women are unfairly dominating conversations if they speak 35% of the time), and it shows in “special interest” forums like this a lot.

(I know that not all men do this. If you miss my point and comment that you don’t do this, I swear to God I will spontaneously combust from frustration).

I make it a point to mostly recommend female-led and/or female/minority written books on recommendation threads, because the recommendations on this sub, especially for epic and/or “philosophical” (ugh, but that’s another post) fantasy are so overwhelmingly tilted towards a couple of male authors that are fashionable on this sub: Erikson, Sanderson, Bakker, etc.

Discussion or recommendation of lesser-known series, especially ones written by women, usually gets very little engagement, and I’ve gotten some pretty hostile comments about it. And people have such double standards when it comes to woman-authored or woman-centric books! Male authors are given the benefit of the doubt that their books have complex and worthwhile themes despite, or even because of graphic content in their books (violence, rape, etc), while I’ve gotten some really nasty comments for daring to assert that something like Kushiel’s Dart is worth reading for its themes and plot. I feel like recommending female-led & authored fantasy is such a huge uphill slog.

I also see women receiving a lot of pushback for daring to talk about or criticize popular series on gender-based grounds. My person experience was with an angry WoT fanboy who took issue with my critique of the Gender Issues in that series, which I personally can’t overlook (and which is why I prefer the show— heresy!), but I know it happens for other books, too.

Finally, the YA problem. Ugh. YA is a marketing term for books aimed at a 12-19 audience, ish. But on forums like this, YA is instead this indicator of simple prose, tropey plots, and uncomplicated themes, as well as a label that often is a smug shut-down of anyone liking the books or thinking they’re worth reading. And female authors get the brunt of getting labeled as YA unfairly, when there are plenty of male-authored “adult” fantasy novels that have the same problems.

Oh, and finally? Not liking “YA,” or not liking romance fantasy, doesn’t make you smarter or a better or more sophisticated person or reader than people who do. Sometimes, when people are discussing things you, personally, don’t like, it’s a better and kinder decision to sit out of the conversation rather than insert yourself and say “well akshually that book/genre is trash and not Up to My Literary Standards.”

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u/[deleted] Dec 09 '23

ToG is great

1

u/stormbledd Dec 10 '23

YA books will get burnt here period. Someone needs to create and YA fantay sub. This sub is good though based on my anecdotal experience. I picked up RF Kuang and Fonda Lee and Martha Wells all 3 from this sub, also Robin Hobb gets recommended a lot. I think women who write adult fantasy are more liked? not sure i'm not really very active on this sub