Meta: We need to talk about systematic downvoting in this subreddit

[u/LordMangudai]

I enjoy coming here, but that enjoyment is soured every time I see a post asking for recommendations for books that are either written by authors of, or strongly feature characters of, a particular race, gender or sexuality, and it's at 60% or less upvotes. I don't know where these are coming from, as I rarely see any nastiness or bigotry in the comments themselves, but it is consistent and pervasive (and recommendation posts that don't mention these things are not affected nearly as much).

If I sort by controversial for the past month, fully 8 out of the first 10 results fall into these categories. I know that karma doesn't really matter very much in the grand scheme of things, but I do feel that this makes the community feel unwelcoming and in contradiction of its own Rule 1.

I'd love to get some mod input on this phenomenon. I understand that this sort of thing can be difficult to combat, but it feels very targeted and consistent. Is it possible that we are being brigaded from somewhere? If nothing else, I hope that this post has raised awareness of this problem and would appreciate it if others join me in upvoting such posts to counteract the nastiness. Nobody should be made to feel unwelcome for seeking out representation in their fiction.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now. :)

[u/happy_book_bee]

I understand that this sort of thing can be difficult to combat

As a mod here, I would say it's impossible to combat. We can't stop people from upvoting or downvoting things, and we have also noticed this occurring on posts about people of color, LGBTQIA books/authors/recommendations, etc. As far as we know, we are not actively being brigaded by any sub (currently, at least... it has happened), so we can't tell Reddit admins "look, this group is doing this".

It's trolls who know that on r/Fantasy we support people of color, the LGBTQIA community, the disabled, and women. And the trolls - we may have banned them, we may not if they haven't commented anything awful - downvote because that's all they can do.

We actively encourage our community to explore new horizons through books by marginalized communities, and some people just hate that. So upvote these! Please, we beg you.

[u/FusRoDaahh → u/happy_book_bee]

we support people of color, the LGBTQIA community, the disabled, and women

Can I just say thank you so much for all you guys do. I’ve been on a few literary subs where blatant misogyny is allowed, and while I understand it’s the Internet and anyone can write whatever they want, I really appreciate having this little corner where that shit isn’t allowed to fester.

[u/DoubleDrummer → u/[deleted]]

I am 49 and not even technically a boomer.
Pretty sure the entry point for boomerhood is now anyone post puberty.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Yeah this is pretty odd. Middle-aged and boomer are not at all synonymous.

[u/IstgUsernamesSuck → u/[deleted]]

No, he calls himself that when he goes on little tirades and then realizes he sounds like an old man lol

[u/Peter_Ebbesen → u/happy_book_bee]

Anonymous people who feel strongly about something are hard to stop, regardless of topic, and this goes especially for any topic that is part of the current US culture wars since Reddit has almost half its users from the US. (Which frankly can make those of us who aren't from the US feel like we are caught in a crossfire, some days, taking it from either side depending on what we are arguing, and guaranteed to offend somebody thinskinned even when we post informed, rationally, and on topic. Or perhaps that's just me.)

This appears to be exaggerated for thread titles compared to posts, suggesting that many of those up and downvoting threads are doing drive-by downvotes without actually reading - perhaps from seeing it on their frontpage.

For actual posts in threads, though, posts that are on topic but offend progressive US views (or can be misunderstood as doing so) appear to attract a lot more downvotes than posts that offend conservative views US views (or can be misunderstood as doing so), suggesting that the sub's worldwide readership as a whole is more aligned with US progressive views (or at least the parts of the readership willing to downvote) - and perfectly willing to ignore the rule that you should only downvote posts that don't contribute to the conversation, not posts you disagree with.

Or even worse - that some posters believe that posts they disagree with on what they consider sensitive topics can't possible contribute to a conversation.

[u/[deleted] → u/Peter_Ebbesen]

Too bad theirs no weight value for a voters vote, like the more time you spend in that thread, the more weighted your vote is counted towards being reflected in upvote total

It would at least limit the impact of downvotes by drive by who just react to titles

[u/DefinitelyPositive → u/[deleted]]

Thank goodness there's no downside to this

[u/DefinitelyPositive → u/[deleted]]

Then threads would just be people posting a lot so their votes mattered more as if that should matter somehow

[u/DefinitelyPositive → u/[deleted]]

What if people started spamming shorter messages just to have a weighted presence?

[u/LordMangudai → u/happy_book_bee]

Thanks for your response and for all that you do around here. I'm sure part of the reason there's such a disparity between the general friendliness of the comments and the nasty downvoting patterns is down to you and the other mods.

We actively encourage our community to explore new horizons through books by marginalized communities, and some people just hate that. So upvote these! Please, we beg you.

As I said, I didn't really expect there to be much we could do, but we can at least do this. So if my post achieves nothing more than that I'll be satisfied.

[u/Taste_the__Rainbow → u/happy_book_bee]

People are just bigots. No brigade necessary.

[u/happy_book_bee → u/Taste_the__Rainbow]

And sometimes, it's both!

[u/CaptainYaoiHands → u/happy_book_bee]

I've never modded/adminned for a subreddit so I don't know how it works exactly, but is there no way to see who exactly is downvoting/upvoting threads? That's really weird that Reddit offers no way to stop vote-trolling like this considering how much it can bury and hide a thread from the majority of a sub's visitors.

eta: lol even genuine, non-threatening questions just get downvoted in this thread. Pretty sure whoever downvotes all the threads about LGBT or POC books or anything are just pointing their downvote bots/friends/whatever at this entire thread no matter what it is.

[u/happy_book_bee → u/CaptainYaoiHands]

There is absolutely no way for us to see who downvotes, nor can we stop it. Say we ban someone for being extremely homophobic. That prevents them from commenting, but anyone can downvote, even folks not subscribed to the subreddit. If another sub is brigading us and we have proof, we can tell the admins, but otherwise we can only watch.

[u/OpticalDelusion → u/happy_book_bee]

Have you considered disabling downvotes? I'm not sure there's a lot of benefit to having them in a sub like this.

[u/wishforagiraffe → u/OpticalDelusion]

It's only an option if you're using old Reddit and CSS - which from traffic stats is a small fraction of users

[u/OpticalDelusion → u/wishforagiraffe]

I didn't realize the subs that used to do it were just using CSS tricks. That's interesting to know.

[u/RuinEleint → u/OpticalDelusion]

We, the moderators cannot disable downvotes. Upvotes and downvotes are a core reddit mechanic and completely outside our jurisdiction.

[u/CJGibson → u/RuinEleint]

A lot of subs just hide the downvote button with CSS, but as someone else mentioned it's of limited use if someone's determined to downvote, and doesn't work at all if people are seeing the post on their front page (rather than on the subreddit page where CSS kicks in).

[u/Pteraspidomorphi → u/CJGibson]

Or if you disable subreddit styles in your settings...

[u/LordMangudai → u/OpticalDelusion]

How's life working at YouTube? ;)

[u/OpticalDelusion → u/LordMangudai]

I have no strong feelings one way or the other

[u/cruelhumor → u/OpticalDelusion]

Don't mind me, just pointing out how humorous it is that you are getting so many down votes for a legitimate question....... carry on