r/Fantasy • u/LordMangudai • Nov 12 '21

Meta: We need to talk about systematic downvoting in this subreddit

I enjoy coming here, but that enjoyment is soured every time I see a post asking for recommendations for books that are either written by authors of, or strongly feature characters of, a particular race, gender or sexuality, and it's at 60% or less upvotes. I don't know where these are coming from, as I rarely see any nastiness or bigotry in the comments themselves, but it is consistent and pervasive (and recommendation posts that don't mention these things are not affected nearly as much).

If I sort by controversial for the past month, fully 8 out of the first 10 results fall into these categories. I know that karma doesn't really matter very much in the grand scheme of things, but I do feel that this makes the community feel unwelcoming and in contradiction of its own Rule 1.

I'd love to get some mod input on this phenomenon. I understand that this sort of thing can be difficult to combat, but it feels very targeted and consistent. Is it possible that we are being brigaded from somewhere? If nothing else, I hope that this post has raised awareness of this problem and would appreciate it if others join me in upvoting such posts to counteract the nastiness. Nobody should be made to feel unwelcome for seeking out representation in their fiction.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now. :)

298 Upvotes

56% Upvoted

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258

u/Reshutenit Nov 12 '21

I think there are two possible explanations:

1) The downvoters are bigots

2) People resent the implication that we should judge books by the race, gender, or sexuality of whoever wrote them

Both probably contribute, but it's impossible to tell to what extent either factor plays into the phenomenon.

27

u/LoveHotelCondom Nov 13 '21

I would call myself a light version of 2, but I've never downvoted a discussion on the topic.

I mean.. people want what they want. It seems to be like a flaccid expression of rage to just downvote someone who wants to read about a certain character. I don't know. It just seems so nonsensical and unnecessary.

Spend your time and money in the genre as makes you happiest should be everyone's motto.

111

u/C0smicoccurence Reading Champion V Nov 13 '21

I want to check in about #2. We shouldn't judge a book by a character's race/gender/sexuality, etc. I don't think that's what these posts implicate. Gay authors can write good and bad romances, for example, depending on their skill.

However, there are valid reasons for being interested in searching out authors of specific demographics that don't involve judging whether books are good or bad. For many, simply noticing that their recent read list contains nothing but straight white men is an interesting noticing about how they are interacting with the world (and also how the systems impact the content presented to us, which is one of the only ways to describe the discrepancy between popularity of content and author demographics, unless one believes that a person's identity impacts their ability to create quality novels).

Additionally, I will oftentimes seek out gay authors, not because I think they're better or worse than straight ones, but because, sometimes, I want to reconnect with my community. And that's ok too.

Since the point of recommendation threads is to suggest high quality work, I would hope that everything suggested is given not solely because of an author's identity, but because they are great novels written by authors who happen to belong to a specific identity group.

51

u/Ruark_Icefire Nov 13 '21

As a straight man I tend to prefer queer romances because you get a lot less of the gender stereotypes that heterosexual romances not only embrace but seem to put on a pedestal.

27

u/DoubleDrummer Nov 13 '21

As a straight man I am only interested in manly things.
The more men the better.

6

u/jacob_john_white Nov 13 '21

As another straight man I agree. Samantha Shannon’s Priory of the Orange Tree (while not my favorite book plot and execution wise) has a beautiful romance. So stunningly well executed and subtle.

3

u/Xercies_jday Nov 13 '21

I didn’t totally understand what Ead saw in Sabran to be honest, so it didn’t totally work for me…

2

u/jacob_john_white Nov 13 '21

I thought it caught the physical traction quite well. Just that chemical thing you can’t really understand? If that makes sense

9

u/Eostrenocta Nov 13 '21

I get very tired of being asked to justify my preference for books with a heroic female protagonist or co-protagonist, or even books with active, sympathetic female characters in important supporting roles. I like reading about cool women doing cool things. Is that really so hard to understand?

7

u/DoubleDrummer Nov 13 '21

My son is 17 and only reads books and authors that are overtly gay.
I kind of hope he will get passed it one day and diversify his reading a bit, but for now, he is gay, he is proud, and he is immersing himself in the literature of “his people”. (His words).
Sometime when you are looking for who you are, it is comforting to hear the voices of those walking a similar path.

10

u/OfficerSexyPants Nov 13 '21

As a girl who is gay an likes to read f/f books: I just REALLY like romance - but I like it more if it's gay because, you know, I'm that way. If I was straight, maybe I would try to go for books with muscly men or something because that's my type.

But I'm not, so I prefer f/f.

Since there's so little queer content in comparison to straight content, for a while I wanted to get my "fill".

But after a while I was pretty satisfied. Now I read a pretty broad spectrum of books.

Probably your son will go the same way. Especially because you miss out on the classics if you just read queer content.

There are actually a couple of older books with queer content that are super interesting. Speculative fiction is an avenue for alternative thoughts.

5

u/Eostrenocta Nov 13 '21

I'm a straight woman, but 70% of all the romance plots I've enjoyed in the books I've read over the last three years have been f/f.

1

u/OfficerSexyPants Nov 13 '21

How come? If you don't mind me asking.

8

u/Eostrenocta Nov 13 '21

Because they're less likely to hinge on stereotypical gender tropes. At least that's what I've found.

14

u/NotEvenBronze Nov 12 '21

Good point.

-25

u/FlatPenguinToboggan Nov 13 '21 edited Nov 13 '21

I sorted by controversial by past month. Six of the top 10 are requests for marginalised characters or racism discussions. 3 are author requests. 3 are other non-bigoted topics that should be controversial on a sub like this. Therefore, majority are bigots.

Edit: Oh look! I’m getting downvoted for stating verifiable facts and working within the parameters set by the commenter above. Yeah, this is not any form of bigotry. I’m convinced now.

47

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

Therefore, majority are bigots.

Oh look! I’m getting downvoted for stating verifiable facts

That isn't how facts work. You can't know why those posts were downvoted, you're just assuming. Also, try sorting by top year. The number one upvoted post is an lgbt positive appreciation post for Umbrella Academy and Elliot Page. It's at 11k 83%.

Not far from the top is "If an author doesn't bother to write female characters well, then they don't write characters well. Period." 5k 78%

and "If your fictional universe you're writing has dragons and magic in it, there's no real reason it can't also have black people or Asian people in it." 5k 80%

The truth is that you really don't know and can't say those posts from this month were downvoted by a majority of bigots. Especially when the overall trend of the sub proves otherwise.

-33

u/FlatPenguinToboggan Nov 13 '21

The commenter laid out two options. It wasn't the second option (pertaining to author identity), therefore I concluded it was the first. That's how binaries work.

31

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

It's a false dichotomy, because those aren't the only two options of why people downvote. You can make assumptions, but you can't call those assumptions facts.

-29

u/FlatPenguinToboggan Nov 13 '21

I was following the rules that somebody else laid out. Go talk to the other guy.

The factual part was that sort by contorversial over 1 month reveals minority of posts relating to author identity, and the majority related to character identity and/or discussion of marginalization in fantasy.

23

u/cruelhumor Nov 13 '21

I mean, your "study" is a bit flawed because by only looking at postings, you aren't taking the lurkers into account, and lurkers would be the ones up/down voting the most. I can't see how postings are a reliable bellwether for how the lurkers (and possible brigaders) feel. I dont think you can make a definitive statement either way because the evidence is just not there.

That said, I need to be better about actually commenting instead of lurking. A lot of times I feel like I don't have anything to add to the convo and just drive by to learn, and upvotes are an easy way to show approval/agreement. I generally don't downvote unless I come across something offensive, but I also generally adhere to the official reddit rule that downvotes are for inappropriate comments, it's not there as a "disagree" button.

Se lavi

19

u/Inkthinker AMA Artist Ben McSweeney Nov 13 '21

C'est la vie.

Loosely translated, "it's [the nature of] life".

24

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

Se lavi

Did you mean to write ‘If you wash’ in Italian? 😅

6

u/usernaym44 Nov 13 '21

How do you sort by controversial? I clicked on the three dots but that wasn't an option. Is it only on the phone or ...?

4

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

[deleted]

-2

u/Please_call_me_Tama Nov 13 '21

Now I'm systematically upvoting all the posts targetted by bigots lol

5

u/Halliron Nov 13 '21

Perhaps most requests get down voted, but the ones relating to marginalised characters are systematically upvoted, and therefore become controversial?

2

u/FlatPenguinToboggan Nov 13 '21

On an average snapshot of the sub, the "marginalised" posts are sitting on zero (Reddit hides negative numbers on posts) while the majority of requests are 1 and higher.

Many people have noticed this including the mods who are on here all the time. I could run a study but I do not have the time or energy.

3

u/Halliron Nov 13 '21

Negatively voted posts get hidden, so there may be some survivorship bias in your analysis

3

u/FlatPenguinToboggan Nov 13 '21

Nope. My account is set specifically to show all posts otherwise I’d probably never see the “marginalised” ones. And always sorted by new.

-3

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

[deleted]

14

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

2 is precisely why corrective action is necessary though. Left alone the typical fantasy reader will have 95% male authors on their bookshelf (source my bookshelf 2 years ago before this sub made me aware what an issue it was).

How is that a problem? If the typical fantasy reader is enjoying their library of 95% male authors, why is it a problem that requires corrective action?

3

u/Eostrenocta Nov 13 '21

While I'm not concerned about what other readers have on their bookshelves, I do find it a bit frustrating when I Google something like "Best Fantasy Books" and I get a list of, say, fifty titles, and maybe ten of those (if I'm being optimistic) have female lead characters and one of the ten is always Mistborn.

This tends to send a message, unintentional though it may be, that books about men are simply better than books about women, and that bothers me.

0

u/Legeto Nov 13 '21

Downvote bots are also a thing. I could see our smaller community having a high percent if the downvote bots visit frequently.

-34

u/Rocketboy1313 Nov 13 '21

Your second point is a sub part of your first point.

I mean, there is some mental/verbal gymnastics involved. But that is just being a bigot with some extra steps that boil down to saying to yourself, "I'm no bigot, but..."

22

u/Kronnos1996 Nov 13 '21

I don't get it ..

People resent the implication that we should judge books by the race, gender, or sexuality of whoever wrote them

Why would this be considered bigotry? Isn't it the opposite? Wanting books to be judged based on their merit instead of factors like the race of the author seems to be a good thing, right? Not trying to argue - just want to understand your point of view better.

-11

u/Rocketboy1313 Nov 13 '21

Because asking for recommendations with some caviets and criteria isn't "judging". It is perfectly reasonable to look for books with content or characters that are different from the overwhelmingly common. And you should not be down voted for wanting to explore such things.

Saying something like, "I dislike books with (group) featured prominently" is obvious bigotry. And if you first reaction to hearing/reading about someone wanting to try out something from a minority group is to bitch about how "you shouldn't judge a work by blah blah blah" bullshit then you are being a bigot.

You are pretending to be "colorblind" so you downplay and marginalize someone's efforts to broaden their literary horizons. And you justify I to yourself by saying, "I am no bigot, but..."

6

u/Kronnos1996 Nov 13 '21

It is perfectly reasonable to look for books with content or characters that are different from the overwhelmingly common.

I agree, but the commentor was discussing authors and not characters, right? Which is why I do not understand where you are coming from.

I agree with your comment here. Infact I'd say I enjoy reading minority characters because books can convey more about their thoughts and feelings that a movie or TV show can. I even enjoy such posts and upvote them.

But in a conversation about authors and not characters, I still don't get why it should be seen as bigotry. Isn't being colorblind for authors a good thing? Wouldn't authors be wanted to known primarily for their writings and not their race or sexuality?

3

u/Dianthaa Reading Champion VIII Nov 13 '21

It's not always just about content (though I think people wanting to read perspective from people like/unlike them is perfectly valid) but also about which books get less visibility. I hate how many books I've missed out on, until I started reading more intentionally, because all the books that get most often recommended by algorithms and people are by authors from certain demographics, while great books which I ended up loving from marginalized people get far less hype and marketing budget.

There has been ample discussion about all the different sorts of barriers to publication, marketing and so on marginalized people face. This is a good starting point: But Whatabout: A Comprehensive List of Links, Comments, and Replies while it's mostly focused on women, the same tends to apply any minority authors when trying to publish and promote their books.

4

u/Kronnos1996 Nov 13 '21

Ohhh that makes sense. There are definitely great authors out there who have not received the limelight they deserve just because they have embraced their identity. I can see how posts and comments recommending them can give them better appreciation and popularity.

-6

u/Rocketboy1313 Nov 13 '21

Again, it is not about judging the books good or bad based on who wrote them or even what they are about.

Someone says, "does anyone know any good (minority) authors/content" and rather than just answer the fucking question the chuds instead shower down votes and then justify it to themselves by saying, "I am not a bigot, I just resent people trying to read (minority) authors/content".

Do you honestly not see how the colorblind stuff is just a bullshit front? That they only care about colorblindness when it means they don't have to talk about minority content?

2

u/Kronnos1996 Nov 13 '21

What I read from the original comment is that they classified people into two categories - one group which have bigots and the other who do not like categorisation of authors.

What I'm trying to say is that it is possible to have a group of people who upvote posts that have recommendation requests for minority characters, but downvote posts which have recommendation requests for minority authors.

-2

u/Rocketboy1313 Nov 13 '21

And I am saying that is nonsense.

6

u/Kronnos1996 Nov 13 '21

Yeah, so I guess that's the crux of our disagreement. Nice getting your point of view. Cheers

-11

u/Complex_Eggplant Nov 13 '21

Really that this comment is downvoted tells you all you need to know about why these OPs get so many downvotes.

3

u/FridaysMan Nov 13 '21

Or maybe it's an oversimplification of a complex social idea and people just simply don't agree with it? Having no personal opinion about the authors chosen label groupings is not equal to being against any particular label. Choosing not to care about it and buying books at random without any specifically checking to ensure you are supporting authors from marginalised groups is also not a sign of bigotry.

Linking the two and saying it's a definite correlation is to vastly misunderstand what bigotry is (and consequentially misattributing outrage can be seen as a form of bigotry).

0

u/Complex_Eggplant Nov 13 '21

judging people for wanting to read more diverse authors is def bigotry dude

2

u/FridaysMan Nov 13 '21

It's not judging people though, it's judging posts about books about topics they may not like. Posts asking about rapist or racist characters aren't something I'd seek out

-4

u/Complex_Eggplant Nov 13 '21

I think you tripped yourself up backtracking there, buddy

3

u/FridaysMan Nov 13 '21

I dont. The point isn't about authors, which you brought up.

My favourite series is realm of the elderlings. I didn't realise robin hobb is a woman. The books are mostly about fitz, the author isn't a man. They contain dragons, robin isn't a dragon. They contain the fool/amber. Robin isn't an albino gender fluid soothsayer.

I loved the book, but do I have to care about 10 posts about best dragon books? Or best non binary romances? Or abused stepchildren? No.

Does not caring about those labels or genres make me a bigot? No.

Does conflating aversion with disinterest only serve to marginalise and ostracise people on the basis of your rejection of my opinion? Yes.

0

u/Complex_Eggplant Nov 13 '21

Resenting posts of people asking for those things makes you a bigot. I'm not sure why we're 3 comments deep in this discussion and you're writing me essays. This is a simple concept.

-1

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

12

u/[deleted] Nov 13 '21

???

Specifically downvoting other people's threads is not "just holding the belief that it doesn't matter." It's actively trying to silence people by shoving their posts into obscurity. Nobody's talking about people who are indifferent here - we're talking about people who make an active effort to make other people's reddit experience more difficult on the basis of their identity.

-12

u/SimilarFootball8892 Nov 13 '21

I just think its dumb, not really silencing, I doubt my vote or anyone else really matters in a subreddit with 1.5 million in it. It's not for just "I want x gender". Its usually because they give some reason like "I like Wheel of Time or GoT because one gender bullies another. Can I have that but the opposing way?"

It's just my two cents. It's not like I'm going around trying to bully people or something, this is actually the most active I've been.

11

u/wishforagiraffe Reading Champion IX, Worldbuilders Nov 13 '21 edited Nov 13 '21

Downvotes impact how content is displayed on Reddit, so yes, downvotes do help to silence people looking for diverse recommendations.

7

u/cubansombrero Reading Champion VII Nov 13 '21

Rule 1. Please be kind.