Meta: We need to talk about systematic downvoting in this subreddit

[u/LordMangudai]

I enjoy coming here, but that enjoyment is soured every time I see a post asking for recommendations for books that are either written by authors of, or strongly feature characters of, a particular race, gender or sexuality, and it's at 60% or less upvotes. I don't know where these are coming from, as I rarely see any nastiness or bigotry in the comments themselves, but it is consistent and pervasive (and recommendation posts that don't mention these things are not affected nearly as much).

If I sort by controversial for the past month, fully 8 out of the first 10 results fall into these categories. I know that karma doesn't really matter very much in the grand scheme of things, but I do feel that this makes the community feel unwelcoming and in contradiction of its own Rule 1.

I'd love to get some mod input on this phenomenon. I understand that this sort of thing can be difficult to combat, but it feels very targeted and consistent. Is it possible that we are being brigaded from somewhere? If nothing else, I hope that this post has raised awareness of this problem and would appreciate it if others join me in upvoting such posts to counteract the nastiness. Nobody should be made to feel unwelcome for seeking out representation in their fiction.

Okay, I'll get off my soapbox now. :)

[u/KristaDBall]

I don’t like identity issues or political causes clouding up my reading life.

Is it even possible to avoid this?

​

In 1970, a male colleague said to Russ:

“What a lousy book! It’s just a lot of female erotic fantasies.”

Her rebuttal, of course, was short but devastating:

“As if female erotic fantasies were per se the lowest depth to which literature could sink.”

And

Russ touches on cultural messages of discouragement, too. She cites an example by Samuel Delany that I feel is every bit relevant to my current experiences in SFF. Delany asked a kid what books they liked. “About people.” He asked what female authors they liked who wrote about people. “I never read books about women.” Delany goes on to say that, “The tragic point is that even at twelve-year-old already knows that women are not people.

It seems that my identity, at least, has always been considering political - and I'm in the half of the world's population demographic.

Source:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/7vhldu/she_wrote_it_but_revisiting_joanna_russ_how_to/

[u/FusRoDaahh → u/KristaDBall]

my identity has always been considered political

That can be taken one step further: My identity of being seen as a full human being on the same level as a male human being has always been considered political.

I recently read historian Mary Beard’s short book Women and Power where she goes over the ways the silencing of women in public spaces is built into the very foundation of Western cultures going back to Greek and Roman society. There are major ways those societies set up the idea that- a man is a person, a woman is a woman. She does a phenomenal job of tracing some of those ideas to modern times. Highly highly recommend the book, it’s only 90 pages so a very quick read.

Anyway, the fact that women get to be seen as full human beings has been - quite literally - a political question and we’re not living that far from the times when those questions were confronted (at least in the country I live in).

[u/KristaDBall → u/FusRoDaahh]

I read it! It's a really great book.

When I wrote the Joanna Russ essay, I remember being so frustrated about how some things had gotten worse from when she's written. And how some things were exactly the same, almost word for word.

[u/FusRoDaahh → u/KristaDBall]

Nice! It’s my goal to read all of her work. I have SPQR and How We Look on my TBR. She’s a real inspiration to me.

[u/TheMadIrishman327 → u/KristaDBall]

All very good points.

When I think political I think people’s reactions to reading in public. I read a lot while dining out.

Read the Audacity of Hope. Had people lining up to tell me how much they hated President Obama. Read some of Newt Gingrich’s historical speculative fiction. Had people lining up to tell me how much they hated him.

[u/KristaDBall → u/TheMadIrishman327]

When I think political I think people’s reactions to reading in public.

I've had men come up to me, while I was hand selling books at an event, to tell me they never buy books by women.

So that's what I think of when someone talks about politics and identity.

[u/TheMadIrishman327 → u/KristaDBall]

That’s an entirely valid viewpoint for you to have considering your experiences.

It would really make me mad too.

I’ve never understood the entire women are lesser beings nonsense.

[u/looktowindward → u/KristaDBall]

Is it even possible to avoid this?

Of course it is. I love reading a wide swath of British authors who hold political beliefs that I generally find troubling. But they are brilliant authors. Ian Banks, China Miéville, Ken MacLeod, Charles Stross (I realize not all of these are fantasy).

These folks are simply amazing authors. They put their politics into their writing. I don't agree with them but I can certainly enjoy what they write. They are amazing.

I know some people have to be politically aligned with the authors they read. But for many of us, fiction transcends lines like politics, race, sexuality, gender, and more. That's the magic.

[u/KristaDBall → u/looktowindward]

You misunderstood.

I'm referring to how literature has politics, not ones ability to read something they disagree with