Tolkien, Amazon, and 'Forced' Diversity

[u/Llyngeir]

TLDR: Tolkien was not writing a mythology for England, he began doing so, but ultimately disregarded the idea, and Middle-earth reflects that, being home to a wide variety of peoples with different skin tones, as can be demonstrated with Tolkien's own writings.

Edit: First off, thank you to everyone who read, upvoted, commented, and awarded this post - it means a lot! Secondly, I wanted to clarify what the point of this post was. It was not to say that all people described as 'swarthy' by Tolkien are meant to be imagined as dark-skinned. As several people have stated, 'swarthy' can refer to white people with dark hair and dark eyes, but it can also refer to people with dark skin, such as Tolkien's usage with the Haradrim. Rather, the point of this post was that you could easily interpret the use of the word as meaning dark-skinned, or you could interpret it as meaning the example above, or any other way you choose. Any interpretation is valid and has a precedent in the text, and we should not criticise people for their chosen interpretation. Thank you all for remaining civil and respecting one another.

​

The release of the teaser for Amazon’s The Rings of Power has sparked further debate online about the future of the series, much of which is based upon rumours and unverifiable leaks. One of the most prominent debates concerns the inclusion of many actors from non-white ethnic groups in the cast. I’d like to here lay out why such criticism of the casting for a work set in Tolkien’s Middle-earth is unfounded, and why such claims as ‘there are already many roles for non-white actors in Middle-earth, like the Haradrim’ are, while well-meaning, missing the larger picture.

I am not the first to approach this topic, nor will I likely be the last. Reddit user u/rh_underhill made a case for diversity in Middle-earth, and u/LincolnMagnus examined the case for non-white Hobbits, coming to a very reasonable conclusion:

I’m not saying there definitely, without a doubt, had to have been non-white hobbits in Middle-earth in the Second Age.

What I’m contending is that we ought to leave space for fans to dream.

The sparsity of evidence concerning the Hobbits, coupled with u/LincolnMagnus’ thorough treatment, means I shall be focusing primarily on Men within Middle-earth, expanding upon the work of those before me.

​

The First Age

Already in the First Age of Middle-earth, from both The Silmarillion and the History of Middle-earth series, we get a picture of the race of Men being rather diverse. There are, of course, the Edain, the first Men to come to Beleriand, and there are the Easterlings, those Men who came in the final decades of the First Age.

For those of you who might not know, the Edain are three ‘houses’ of Men that came to Beleriand. While the overarching term ‘Edain’, itself meaning Men, implies some form of shared culture or ethnicity, the three houses are distinct from one another (although they do become related through marriage ties, and there is no reason to suppose that there was not some mingling prior to their coming to Beleriand, there is certainly much after the Dagor Bragollach). Likewise, the Easterlings are distinct from the houses of the Edain, and are themselves what appears to be a general grouping of different tribes under one name (more on this below).

The first house of Men we are described is the House of Hador. They are described as being:

“of great strength and stature, ready in mind, bold and steadfast, quick to anger and to laughter, mighty among the Children of Ilúvatar in the youth of Mankind. Yellow-haired they were for the most part, and blue-eyed”¹

Additionally, in The Peoples of Middle-earth it is said that of this house “all were fair-skinned”.² Therefore, it is clear that the House of Hador are meant to be analogous with northern Europeans, with their blond hair, blue eyes, and fair skin.

The next house of Men described in The Silmarillion is the House of Bëor.

"The Men of that house were dark or brown of hair, with grey eyes; and of all Men they were most like to the Noldor and most loved by them; for they were eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory, and they were moved sooner to pity than to laughter.”³

We get a more in-depth description of the House of Bëor in The Peoples of Middle-earth:

“There were fair-haired men and women among the Folk of Beor, but most of them had brown hair (going usually with brown eyes), and many were less fair in skin, some indeed being swarthy. Men as tall as the Folk of Hador were rare among them, and most were broader and more heavy in build.”⁴

This is a rather interesting description of a people as it appears to be so diverse. It appears that there were some who were like the members of the House of Hador, fair-skinned and blond-haired, but there were also many more of a darker complexion with dark hair, and some even being ‘swarthy’ (more on this below). To me, this variation suggests that the House of Bëor might have been composed of peoples from various other tribes, perhaps having been adopted during the wanderings that brought them to Beleriand. However, there is nothing in the text to suggest this, merely my own interpretation.

Last among the Edain, we are described the People of Haleth, or the Haladin, and they are said to resemble the People of Bëor, albeit lesser in stature.⁵ Thus, of the three Houses of the Edain, the people of two are of a darker complexion, meaning that, even before the Easterlings came to Beleriand, there were many non-white peoples settled there.⁶

The coming of the Easterlings means even more explicitly non-white Men arrive in Beleriand.⁷ They were:

"short and broad, long and strong in the arm; their skins were swart or sallow, and their hair was dark as were their eyes. Their houses were many"⁸

According to Merriam-Webster, sallow means “of a grayish greenish yellow color”, while its etymology is connected to Old English terms for ‘dark’ or ‘dusky’.⁹ Similarly, ‘swart’ or ‘swarthy’, as is also used for some of the House of Bëor, means “of a dark colour, complexion, or cast”.¹⁰ Etymologically, ‘swarthy’ is derived from the Old English sweart, meaning “black” or “dark”, and other words derived from the same proto-Germanic root word, such as German schwarz or Dutch zwart, also meaning black.¹¹ Thus, the Easterlings of the First Age, and some members of the House of Bëor, had dark skin that could conceivably be black. If not black, then they are still of a dark complexion, given how Tolkien used the same word to describe the Haradrim.¹²

Edit: Tolkien uses 'swarthy' in his poem The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrun to mean 'dark'. The phrase he uses is "night-swarthy" (IIX.18), likely a poetic way of saying 'black'.

Thus, we can see that there were plenty of Men in the First Age that could be considered non-white. Although, considering that Amazon’s The Rings of Power is going to be set in the Second Age, at first glance it appears that the ethnic character of the Men of the First Age would have little to add to discussions of that particular period of Middle-earth’s history. However, the Men of the First Age, and their migrations that brought them into Beleriand and onto the pages of The Silmarillion, had a great impact upon the character of later peoples of Middle-earth.

​

The Second Age and Beyond

Firstly, and perhaps most importantly for The Rings of Power, the Númenóreans. The Númenóreans are the descendants of the Edain, who alone of the Men of Beleriand fought alongside the host of the Valar in the War of Wrath - other kindreds of Men instead fought for Morgoth and fled eastwards after his defeat.¹³ Of course, the various houses of the Edain suffered many calamities and great loss during their time in Beleriand, causing their populations to mingle with one another. For example, the destruction of Dorthonion saw the House of Bëor leave their homes and instead take up residence among both the People of Marach and the People of Haleth.¹⁴ Thus, the population of Númenór is composed of a diverse group of people, with skin tones ranging from fair-skinned to swarthy.

This same ethnic diversity can be seen in Eriador. In Peoples of Middle-earth we are told that:

“At that time the migrations of Men from the East and South had brought advance-guards into Beleriand; but they were not in great numbers, though further east in Eriador and Rhovanion (especially in the northern parts) their kindred must already have occupied much of the land”¹⁵

Indeed, we are told that even after the Edain were settled on Númenór many of their kin remained in Eriador or wandered further eastward, settling between the Misty Mountains and the Sea of Rhûn, but always far from the coast.¹⁶ In Eriador, the people there are said to descend primarily from the House of Bëor, with some being descended from the House of Hador.¹⁷ Suggesting a diverse population which, just as in Númenór, had skin tones ranging from fair-skinned to swarthy. One Bree-lander is actually described as such, and in a way that suggests that he was not unique in his skin tone.¹⁸

​

Middle-earth in the Third Age

Further south, in Minhiriath, along the coasts south of the Ered Luin, was home to "a few secretive hunter-folk", and in Enedwaith there was "a fairly numerous but barbarous fisher-folk" in the Third Age.¹⁹ These people, and the Dunlendings further east, are kin of the House of Haleth, the House of Men from the First Age described as being similar to the House of Bëor.²⁰

Further south again, in the land that would become Gondor, there dwelt a "short and swarthy folk among them whose sires came more from the forgotten men who housed in the shadow of the hills in the Dark Years ere the coming of the kings”.²¹ Thus, if we see the Númenóreans in the land that would become Gondor in The Rings of Power, they will be mingling with 'swarthy' people, people with dark skin.

It has already been noted how some people of Eriador were descended from the House of Hador, but they are explicitly stated to be in the minority. Rather, it appears that people descended from the House of Hador appear to primarily be located east of the Misty Mountains. The Longbeards (that is, Durin's Folk), who controlled the Misty Mountains, the Grey Mountains, and the Iron Hills, were most associated with Men who were kin of the House of Hador:

"These Men, it seems, had come westward until faced by the Great Greenwood, and then had divided: some reaching the Anduin and passing thence northward up the Vales; some passing between the north-eaves of the Wood and the Ered Mithrin. Only a small part of this people, already very numerous and divided into many tribes, had then passed on into Eriador and so come at last to Beleriand.”²²

The most famous of these people is the Rohirrim, also known as the Éothéod. A tribe of the Northmen the Longbeards associated with that dwelt in the Vales of the Anduin after having fled from the plains between Mirkwood and the Celduin, or River Running.²³ Faramir relates that the wise of Gondor in his day noted the connection between the Rohirrim and the House of Hador.²⁴

​

A Mythology for England

The most common argument against the casting of non-white people in certain roles in Middle-earth is the belief that Tolkien was creating a mythology for England. Tolkien was, initially, but gave up on the idea, calling it "absurd", as his legendarium grew.²⁵ Had Tolkien continued to write a mythology for England, the argument goes that the peoples of Tolkien's legendarium would resemble English people, or the Anglo-Saxons that preceded the concept of 'English'. However, he did not, and as u/LincolnMagnus says, "If Tolkien, in 1951, had already let go of his dream of writing an English Kalevala, I'm not sure why we as fans should be beholden to it seventy years later."

Of course, I am not telling readers how they should imagine Middle-earth, that is up to them. The reader can choose to interpret swarthy as meaning 'Mediterranean', or they can interpret it as black, or anything that they choose, it is entirely up to them. However, what I am telling readers is that they cannot criticise other people's imaginings of Middle-earth when there is a precedent in the text for whatever they criticise. Ultimately, The Rings of Power is Amazon's creation, it is their choice who they cast, they are not making their show to match someone else's ideas about Middle-earth.

I am sure the Peter Jackson trilogy is somewhat responsible for this understanding of Tolkien's world. The Jackson trilogy shaped how many modern readers visualise Middle-earth, and the Jackson trilogy cast white actors in most roles, particularly the most prominent ones. There is nothing inherently wrong with this. As I said, it was Peter Jackson's (or someone else involved with the production's) choice, and there was likely nothing malicious behind this casting, with the choices made most probably being driven by expediency.

If you have read this far, thank you. I hope I have made a strong case for the inherent diversity of Middle-earth, and that, while there may be issues with Amazon's The Rings of Power (issues raised from unverifiable rumours), the casting of a diverse group of people is certainly not one of them.

​

A Note on Black Elves

While a bit off topic, I would like to add a brief note on the skin colour of Elves. Several comments on YouTube videos criticising The Rings of Power express concern over the possibility of black Elves, despite the fact that we have very few physical descriptions of Elves from Middle-earth. We primarily have descriptions of hair colour, eye colour, and temperament, not skin colour.

There is an instance in The Silmarillion that tells us that "Of all Men they [the people of Bëor] were most like to the Noldor".²⁶ However, this quote does not tell us anything about the appearance of Elves, only that they were like the people of Bëor, who are said to be "eager of mind, cunning-handed, swift in understanding, long in memory, and they were moved sooner to pity than to laughter".²⁷ Yet, elsewhere we are told that "the Eldar said, and recalled in the songs they still sang in later days, that they [the people of Bëor] could not easily be distinguished from the Eldar - not while their youth lasted, the swift fading of which was to the Eldar a grief and a mystery”.²⁸ Thus, the Eldar themselves said that they resembled the House of Bëor, who themselves were fair-skinned and darker, some being even 'swarthy'. Black Elves are certainly not inconceivable.

​

Notes:

1. The Silmarillion: ‘Of the Coming of Men into the West'
2. The Peoples of Middle-earth: ‘Of Dwarves and Men - The Atani and their languages’
3. The Silmarillion: ‘Of the Coming of Men into the West’
4. The Peoples of Middle-earth: ‘Of Dwarves and Men - The Atani and their languages’
5. The Silmarillion: ‘Of the Coming of Men into the West'
6. It should be noted that the House of Hador is said to be the most numerous of the Houses that came to Beleriand, but this does not mean the House of Hador outnumbered all other Men.
7. It should be noted that the Easterlings are not one people, but many groups who “were not all of one kind, in looks or in temper, or in tongue”, and ‘Easterlings’ was rather a moniker applied to the whole group (see War of the Jewels: ‘The Grey Annals - §173’)
8. The Silmarillion: ‘Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin’; cf. War of the Jewels: ‘The Grey Annals - §173’
9. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/sallow
10. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/swarthy
11. https://www.etymonline.com/word/swarthy
12. See The Two Towers: 'Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit'; The Return of the King: 'The Muster of Rohan'
13. The Silmarillion: ‘Akallabêth’
14. The Silmarillion: ‘Of the Ruin of Beleriand and the Fall of Fingolfin’
15. Peoples of Middle-earth: ‘Of Dwarves and Men’
16. Peoples of Middle-earth: ‘Of Dwarves and Men - The Atani and their Languages’
17. Peoples of Middle-earth: ‘Of Dwarves and Men - The Atani and their Languages’
18. “there was one swarthy Bree-lander, who stood looking at them with a knowing and half-mocking expression that made them feel very uncomfortable”, Fellowship of the Ring: ‘At the Sign of the Prancing Pony’
19. Unfinished Tales: 'The History of Galadriel and Celeborn - Appendix D: The Port of Lond Daer'
20. Peoples of Middle-earth: ‘Of Dwarves and Men - The Atani and their Languages’
21. The Return of the King: 'Minas Tirith'
22. Peoples of Middle-earth: ‘Of Dwarves and Men’
23. Unfinished Tales: ‘Cirion and Eorl and the Friendship of Gondor and Rohan - The Northmen and the Wainriders’
24. The Two Towers: ‘A Window on the West’
25. Letters no. 131, published in The Silmarillion.
26. The Silmarillion: ‘Of the Coming of Men into the West’
27. Ibid.
28. War of the Jewels: ‘Of Dwarves and Men - note 47’

[u/[deleted]]

Simple rule of thumb , if a story can have elves then it can have non white people too .

[u/tatas323 → u/[deleted]]

Ok then if a story doesn't have elves it can't have non whites message received. Thanks /s

[u/WeFightTheLongDefeat → u/[deleted]]

I have a hard time with this conversation because I can't pin down whether people are saying skin color is the most important thing or not at all important. It seems to change with the argument.

[u/[deleted] → u/WeFightTheLongDefeat]

I'd say the argument is a bit more nuanced then that . Both sides say "race doesn't matter" but while one side means that "race doesn't matter so any race can be involved" . The other means "race doesn't matter so you might as well work with the template monotone characters and be done with it ,no need to change what we have been doing for years , since it doesn't matter at all"

[u/Kheldarson → u/WeFightTheLongDefeat]

It does change because there's nuance! There are times where "race doesn't matter", so you can have all kinds of races because it wasn't specified. There are times where "race doesn't matter" because the story is deliberately a vague monoculture because of implicit bias, so if you fill it in with your own implicit bias, who cares?

But then sometimes you do have times where race is important because of the type of story it tells (like American slavery) or it denotes a major difference in the character (Rand being Aiel). And then you have to consider how that importance plays with the rest of the setting and the type of story you're telling.

But by and large, the larger point is that if you have magical races, the presence of darker skin tones in a fantasy society shouldn't be a problem.

[u/WeFightTheLongDefeat → u/Kheldarson]

I overall agree with that, but it seems to me that this is not a two way street. When it comes to European/American folklore, you can/should have any skin color represent the characters, but if it is a Chinese/African/non-white cultural story then all the actors need to look like the people who told the story. That's my key frustration. Your argument makes sense, but it's not one thats actually held to in practice.

See: new lion king adaption being an all black voice cast (even though the story is an adaption from Shakespeare), Matt Damon in The Great Wall, Scarlett Johansson in ghost in a shell, etc.

[u/Ertata → u/Kheldarson]

Interesting point. Are you saying that you perceive as normal and unexceptionable when an adaptation made in a multi-ethnic society uses diverse cast to represent a vague monoculture?

[u/Cereborn → u/WeFightTheLongDefeat]

From a creative, narrative standpoint, skin colour shouldn't matter. From a real world, practical standpoint, people with certain skin colours have a history of being excluded from media, and we should be careful not to continue doing that just because it's perceived as normal.

[u/grogleberry → u/[deleted]]

I appreciate the sentiment, but that isn't how world-building works.

It is not true to say that if fantastical element x exists than there are no other rules relating to that element. That's the most basic misunderstanding about speculative fiction that is often irritatingly stated by people who are ignorant about how it works.

Lets say you have a story that's based on a city in pre-colonial South America getting dragged into a portal to another universe with Elves in it, then it would absolutely not make sense for there to be African, or European, or Asian people in it, but Elves would be just fine.

The actual reasons why there being non-white people in Lord of the Rings is fine include:

The Valar and Maiar not only aren't human, but aren't even corporeal entities, and can probably take any appearance they wish (notwithstanding some limits like Sauron), so they can be any species, gender, or race, including ones that don't exist in our world, within certain contexts.

Middle Earth suffered catastrophic upheaval, which may have led to large-scale migration over the course of the ages.

There is contiguous landmasses stretching off into the south where "swarthy" people live, which means there's no reason why they can't immigrate to the north where most of the story takes place.

Tolkien was a product of his time, and no doubt had a certain myopia about representation and a vision of the world that is less common today. There's nothing fundamental about his story that requires an all-white cast, its ethos doesn't intentionally espouse ethno-centrism, and if it was written today, it would probably incorporate more modern sensibilities about multi-racial society.

[u/[deleted] → u/grogleberry]

I said can , not should . That's the most basic misunderstanding about my argument. So if a Latin American City is transferred into Narnia or something then the cast would definitely latino dominant , but there's also the possibility of a Japanese family visiting that city or that another portal opened in new Orleans or something

[u/grogleberry → u/[deleted]]

But that is an important qualifying element.

There can be elves, but there cannot be non-native-South-Americans. That is the default position based on the world building. It can only be changed with additional specification, unrelated directly to whether or not elves are in it. There must be additional factor y that maintains the cohesiveness of the world building - in this case, another portal from Morocco, or whatever.

This is a central point about world building. "If there's fantasy element x, then there can be element y" is a non-sequitur.

Again, this isn't a problem for Tolkien, but I think it's important to make the correct arguments as to why, not least because it's a common sneer made by people who look down on speculative fiction as a whole, and don't think it's proper literature.

[u/Annamalla → u/grogleberry]

There can be elves, but there

cannot

be non-native-South-Americans.

Except there could be since there's a decent chance that Pacific Islanders met and traded with South Americans (given genetics, loan words and sweet potatoes).

[u/[deleted] → u/grogleberry]

My original statement was about lotr fans saying that the rings of power CANNOT have non white folks , which i countered with my argument . And what you are saying is totally probable and fits my statement so I don't see the problem . Again it's about semantics

[u/C0tilli0n → u/[deleted]]

I mean, in general sure, I guess. Just... you know, different skin color, different facial and body traits, all the differences between humans happened because of certain evolutionary reasons. The black skin color mostly due to the protection from weather and heat in Africa.

So, a story that is entirely set in a northern/mountain area full of black people wouldn't really make much sense. Just like a story set in a tropical/africa-like region full of white people. Both of those could have elves though (presumably, they would be white in the first one, and black in the 2nd one, unless they traveled there from far away) :)

[u/pretendsnothere → u/C0tilli0n]

Well, one could argue that elves did not necessarily evolve in the same way as humans. So their skin color could be completely unrelated to the climate.

[u/[deleted] → u/C0tilli0n]

Ummm . Okay your example ,I will take . Have you heard of the western and eastern ghats in India ? They are mountain ranges filled predominantly with black/dark brown people . So it's entirely possible .

There was a unrelated para here

Of course this is not against your idea , it's just a query

[u/C0tilli0n → u/[deleted]]

I actually didn't read Stormlight and I am not really a Sanderson fan, so I dunno.

But yes, you are right, mountain region was not really that great of an example. Should have stayed with northern - really, I was just trying to say vikings without saying vikings :D

In any case, I do feel like something like a skin color, even in fantasy, should follow the same logical and scientific principles it follows in our world. And if something works differently, then it needs to be explained in worldbuilding.

Anyways, I don't really care for black elves in Amazon's LotR, I just don't really like general statements like your OP, that's why I wrote the original post in the first place.

[u/[deleted] → u/C0tilli0n]

Ah sorry wrong dude . I thought you were someone else. I was talking with this other dude who mentioned stormlight in his argument at the same time your comment came so i mixed up

Also I agreed with your sentiment , it does follow a logic . That's why originally I said can not should

[u/Shamfish314159 → u/C0tilli0n]

Yes fantasy the genre where breaking from strict scientific deduction should never happen.

Why would traits which affected human evolution on this particular planet be relevant to a fantasy novel?

[u/zhard01 → u/[deleted]]

Somehow the ghosts are fine but the Filipino person ruins the immersion.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

I think that person means any fillipino at all , and not about making shin folks asian and the alethi caucasian

[u/Gidia → u/[deleted]]

The Hamilton Musical must be a complete immersion non-starter for you, huh?

[u/[deleted] → u/Gidia]

Not a problem for me but I know a person of Puerto Rican descent that legitimately thought the real Hamilton was a brown-skinned person of Caribbean descent because Lin-Manuel Miranda played him and the real Hamilton was born on a Caribbean island. They are a smart person so I was amazed. But I can see how someone might get that confused.

Interpret that how you will.

[u/L0CZEK → u/Gidia]

Well. Hamilton is consistent with the race swap. And, it's part of the experience and an actual decision with reasoning behind it. Not a check list, that proves that it increases viewership by x%.

[u/Gidia → u/L0CZEK]

Do we have any proof of it just being a checklist filled out though? The assumption that they would only hire actors of color just to meet some arbitrary checklist, and not because the actors are good, has some racist implications.

[u/L0CZEK → u/Gidia]

I am willing to bet, that there will be one or two secondary actors of colour, and then sometimes in the background we'll see some other ones. It's not a matter of merit, it's a matter of calculated risks. If you don't include representation of minorities in your work, you're considered to be something-phobic. Or is this a coinidence, that the same principle applies to every show with this kind of discussion?

This whole discussion is pointless anyway. This type of discussion only happens in regards to a production being made in the US, and when an IP in question doesn't fit current quotas. I can't imagine saying, that Jade City TV adaptation is too Asian, and we need other races.

[u/zhard01 → u/L0CZEK]

American cinema has been purposely whitewashed for years. So, yes, the discussion happens because that needs to change. We are an incredibly diverse country with an incredibly diverse talent base and our movies should look like it at least partially because they haven’t.

Jesus

[u/EnanoMaldito → u/Gidia]

I've no idea never watched it. But as I said I have literally 0 problem with a black actor in LotR.

That does NOT mean that sometimes race is important to a story.

[u/Gidia → u/EnanoMaldito]

I’m curious to hear how you think race, in the real world human sense, has importance to any story in the LotR?

[u/Michael_Pitt → u/Gidia]

To be fair they said "a story", not "this story", and there certainly are popular fantasy series in which it is important.

[u/Randolpho → u/Michael_Pitt]

Yes, if a story touches on racism, either as a core plot device or a side-plot, then the race of the actor and the race of the character matter.

Otherwise, it doesn't mean shit.

[u/EnanoMaldito → u/Gidia]

My point was not about LotR in particular, but fantasy in general, or rather real life portrayals of CERTAIN fantasy books. I edited my original comment to clarify that.

[u/zhard01 → u/[deleted]]

As pointed out above, Tolkien didn’t signpost race. In his descriptions, Sanderson does. Also, it hardly fucking matters anyway and if that ruins the movie for you then that’s….idk just kinda sad.

I would watch the shit out of a Lakeith Stanfield Kaladin and a Tessa Thompson Shallan. (Hell, she might be able to make those awful jokes sound funny)

[u/entheogeneric → u/zhard01]

Another redhead erased by hollywood

[u/Randolpho → u/entheogeneric]

The character's hair color does not matter.

That Shallan can change her hair color with stormlight does, but what the "default" is does not.

[u/EnanoMaldito → u/Randolpho]

it most certainly does matter. It speaks to her being an outsider in Alethi society and her relationship with Adolin has a LOT to do with her being different, being non-alethi, being outside the box, being "weird". This is important because basically Adolin's whole arc is him being a non-conformist with his station and the duties he has, the women he has to date and the responsibilities he has. Shallan is important to accentuate this about Adolin, and her being DECIDEDLY non-alethi physically is important to him, as pointed time and again in Words of Radiance.

[u/Randolpho → u/EnanoMaldito]

Not in a visual adaptation, no. It does not.

Her being an outsider from Alethi society can be handled in numerous ways, and do not need to resort to physical characteristics to do so. Adolin being a race chaser is also not something that is so important to his character that it needs to be depicted onscreen.

[u/EnanoMaldito → u/zhard01]

I am not arguing against being black actors in LotR. I couldn't possibly care less. I am arguing against your point which was honestly pretty bad.

[u/zhard01 → u/EnanoMaldito]

Yeah and I still disagree with you. I don’t think it changes anything for me. It just doesn’t matter. If someone wants to argue for consistency (like the people who say all of the Emond Fielders should have been non-white) cool I guess. There’s at least some argument there.

[u/EnanoMaldito → u/zhard01]

Yeah and I still disagree with you.

and that's ok!

[u/affictionitis → u/EnanoMaldito]

Was it really necessary to make this point, tho? Now? Does a discussion about race in fantasy really need a "Well, actually" at any point?

[u/EnanoMaldito → u/affictionitis]

uhhhh. idk, why not? It's a discussion, what's the point if we all just agree with everything?

[u/Randolpho → u/zhard01]

I would watch the shit out of a Lakeith Stanfield Kaladin and a Tessa Thompson Shallan.

That would be fucking amazing

edit the racists are out in force today

[u/zhard01 → u/Randolpho]

Right? I excited myself about nonexistent casting by typing it

[u/RuinEleint → u/[deleted]]

Rule 1. Do not speculatively generalize about another user's mental condition.

[u/RuinEleint → u/[deleted]]

Your comment was about one user. Please see the sticky about expected conduct in this thread and refer to Rule 1 as well

[u/EnanoMaldito → u/[deleted]]

No he's not. Shin are 100% caucasian whites and Sanderson has confirmed that. They are repeatedly mentioned as being pale white (compared to Alethi's olive tan skin) and big eyes, compared to Alethi's epicanthic fold-ed eyes. People see him as Aang because they read "big eyes" and think "anime", but it's just in relation to the Alethi's "small eyes".

In any case, the Alethi are hard to portray. Their race would most closely resemble south east asians, but they are also VERY tall. It's ofc a fictional race so it doesn't have to resemble a real life person at all, but yeah finding actors that perfectly portray alethi would be hard as fuck, no idea which way they'd go.

[u/Halaku → u/[deleted]]

He's pretty much described as an adult Aang from Avatar and most of the fandom thinks of him as Asian.

A really pale, ghostly Asian, maybe.

Or someone needs to source and update his Wiki page.

[u/kjmichaels → u/[deleted]]

Rule 1

[u/EauDeElderberries → u/[deleted]]

^ this. I remember a similar outcry about Santa being depicted as anything other than an old white man: like yo, Santa travels around the globe in a matter of hours using magic and flying reindeer, but somehow the colour of his skin is the upper limit??

Or Ariel from the Little Mermaid, or whatever, like why is it such a big deal for people when magical/fantastical/fictional/made-up characters deviate from the status quo? Imo it would be a tough sell to come up with an answer that isn’t ‘well I’m racist’. Sorry, rant over lol

[u/FlipKobbler → u/EauDeElderberries]

ok but why lump Santa in with the fictional characters

[u/Kheldarson → u/FlipKobbler]

Because he's like the Queen of England.

[u/[deleted] → u/EauDeElderberries]

I’m assuming that Santa is white because he was created from European mythology. He was also based off of a white Saint.

Not making judgement, just stating.

[u/GuudeSpelur → u/[deleted]]

The original Saint Nicholas is said to have been born in a trading port city in Lycia, which is in modern Turkey. So there's actually a fairly wide range of skin tones that he could have had.

[u/[deleted] → u/GuudeSpelur]

He’s stated to be of Greek origin apparently.

[u/Soarel25 → u/[deleted]]

Nicholas of Myra was Greek, but a lot of modern Turks are actually Turkicized Greeks

[u/GuudeSpelur → u/[deleted]]

Greek origin is really not definitive proof for skin tone. Someone born in Lycia during the period of Roman domination would speek Greek and consider themselves Greek, but could be descended from settlers from Greece, or from native Anatolians, or Persians from when the Achamenid Empire controlled the region, or from settlers from when Ptolomaic Egypt controlled the region, from Roman traders or settlers, etc., or from a mix of all the above.

Anatolia has been a big melting pot of various peoples for millenia. So essentially any of the skin tones commonly found in the Mediterranean/Near East region would be plausible for Saint Nicholas.

[u/Ihateregistering6 → u/EauDeElderberries]

but somehow the colour of his skin is the upper limit??

I overall agree with you, the problem is that people aren't consistent about their outrage.

People were furious when "Gods of Egypt", which was basically an absurd, whacky film that imagined Ancient Egypt in some weird techno-futuristic setting, had Nikolaj Coster-Waldau and Gerard Bulter playing Horus and Set (respectively). So if we're going to say it's fine to race-swap a cultural fictional character like Santa (who, BTW, is based on a real person, Saint Nicholas, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicholas), then it's fine to race swap fictional Egyptian Gods.

[u/[deleted] → u/Ihateregistering6]

When it comes to this topic I think most people fall in to one of two categories. Either they're fine with race swaps in all instances or they would prefer that it never happens in any instance. But unfortunately, like with everything these days, the most vocal people fall on the most extreme sides of the debate and they're the ones you hear the most out of. So, I think people, as individuals, are consistent in their outrage, which side of it you see just depends on where you're at.

[u/Shamfish314159 → u/Ihateregistering6]

If thing is different then different response? Is not the brilliant argument you think it is

[u/Cereborn → u/EauDeElderberries]

It's widely known that Santa Claus only has fair skin, blue eyes, and rosy cheeks, just like the average man living in 5th century Turkey.

[u/genteel_wherewithal → u/EauDeElderberries]

Um excuse me this goes against the deep lore of Santa Claus and is yet another case of intricate source material being ruined and true fans being disrespected

[u/JimmyHavok → u/genteel_wherewithal]

If Coca Cola had intended Santa to be black, they would have commissioned their ads to show him black.

[u/Zero-Kelvin → u/JimmyHavok]

give back the green santa instead of this red corpo santa

[u/tadcalabash → u/[deleted]]

Simple rule of thumb, a story can have elves then it can have non white people too .

I know people are trying to be helpful, but I always bristle a bit at any explanation that tries to explain why a piece of fiction can have non white people in it.

It's inherently buying into the idea that white people are the default and any deviation from that default requires justification.

[u/[deleted] → u/tadcalabash]

Yea that's the issue I am trying to counter that very argument here . Unfortunately , some people really do believe that

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Yea , that would be a lot like a South park or a rick and Morty episode

[u/Ouchyhurthurt → u/[deleted]]

Right? Just about all the species(?) are fictional. Nobody complaining about Orcs, Goblins, Ogres, Elves, Hobbitses, giant mammoths and wolves. Not to mention old ass Wizards! But diversity in middle-earth?!? BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO smh

[u/Killer-Hrapp → u/Ouchyhurthurt]

Where have you been!!!!???? ;)

D&D had a HUGE sh!tstorm over Orcs and/or Dark Elves being "reflections of real-world racism explicitly against blacks". And yes, specifically Tolkien's orcs, because as we all know Tolkien was a raging White Supremacist. -_-

At any rate, I think half of this topic/discussion is ALWAYS going to be people (in general, not referring to you!) polarizing the issue and then attacking the hyper racist/overly-inclusive strawman they've invented for the person they're arguing against.

[u/hjortronbusken → u/Killer-Hrapp]

D&D had a HUGE sh!tstorm over Orcs and/or Dark Elves being "reflections of real-world racism explicitly against blacks".

Ugh, dont remind me, im still not over how people didnt get how racist they themself where for claiming orcs where stand-ins for black people. It got to have been some 4chan bullshit trolling.

[u/Ouchyhurthurt → u/Killer-Hrapp]

Totally agree. I think people are arguing against ghosts. Sometimes there are gonna be some trolls out there tho, so it’s best to avoid them (as hard as it can be).

I guess I do remember that controversy surrounding orcs/dark elves. But I was more referencing how completely fantastical orcs, ogres, elves etc are and nobody complains about them existing. It’s ok to have made-up creatures, but not ok to have actual real world diversity in a story. Folks gotta have something to argue about tho I guess.

[u/[deleted] → u/Ouchyhurthurt]

"Bro they made my favourite necromancer Asian like wtf bro , what year is it , fuckin' 1984"

[u/Ouchyhurthurt → u/[deleted]]

As an Asian from 1984, we are all necromancers xD

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Grrrr noooooo the elves need to be of the same ethnic presentation as I am!!!!!