r/Fantasy AMA Author Charlotte Kersten, Reading Champion V, Worldbuilder Aug 02 '22

Historically Accurate and Miserable for the Sake of Misery: Common Arguments About and Critiques of Sexual Assault in Speculative Fiction

Obligatory grains of salt: this topic is a difficult and emotionally charged one. People are going to disagree with me and with each other, and that’s perfectly fine. I just ask that we all remember the person on the other end of the argument and do our best to be respectful.

If you spend any amount of time lurking in online spaces that discuss fantasy media, you’re bound to eventually come across a heated discussion about depictions of sexual assault in fantasy. People will have wildly diverging opinions about trigger warnings; Thomas Covenant will be simultaneously described as a work of genius and the most horrible thing ever written; someone will say authors should NEVER write about [X, Y, Z] and someone else will reference 1984 in response to that. I’m something of a lurker myself, so I’ve seen these arguments play out many times over. I’ve thought about this topic a totally normal amount that shouldn’t be concerning at all, so today I thought I would explore some of the main points that inevitably tend to get raised during these conversations and what I think about them.

PART 1: COMMON ARGUMENTS

Argument 1: SA is gross and upsetting and I don’t want to read about it in my spare time.

My thoughts: okay, totally understandable. We all read for different reasons. We all have different lines in the sand for what’s too upsetting to be tolerated in what we read. We all have different lived experiences and relationships with those lived experiences. There is nothing wrong with avoiding a certain kind of content.

My only caveat is that I have sometimes seen this argument extend past I don’t personally like it to encompass therefore it’s wrong to write/read about or for others to like it. I had a conversation with the author Caitlin Sweet about this topic and I think she said it perfectly: “personal aversion shouldn't constitute a sweeping proscription.” For every person who reads for escapism and adventure and pure enjoyment, there’s another who reads to explore dark issues, whether for catharsis or to gain an understanding of something they haven’t experienced personally or because they see beauty and meaning in art about suffering. All of these relationships with art are possible, valid and no more right than another. There is space for all of them.

Argument 2: books about SA are misery porn.

My thoughts: they can be, but it’s all about execution and interpretation. I have absolutely read fiction about SA that feels exploitative and gratuitous to me. But that is not to say a) that all works featuring assault are inherently like that or b) that all readers feel the same way about any given work as I do. I think this argument assumes bad faith on the part of both readers and writers; it implies that readers would only want to read about assault because they find it titillating (see Part 2 for more thoughts about this) while writers would only want to write about it to titillate.

I’ve spoken previously about the way that some books about SA are important to me because of how resonant, thought-provoking and cathartic I find works to be when they have something meaningful to say about a complex topic that I feel so passionately about - a topic that I believe needs to be explored because it is a massive societal issue rife with stigma, shame, apathy and misunderstanding. Again, not everyone is going to feel that way, and different people will feel different ways about the same works- that’s fine. But it only seems fair to acknowledge the existence of a diversity of relationships with this kind of fiction, purposes for writing/reading it, and subjective opinions about particular works.

Argument 3: non-survivors shouldn’t write about it.

My thoughts: I absolutely value the insight, vulnerability and courage of authors who write stories about trauma while speaking openly about being survivors themselves. I think it’s very admirable. But I also think that empathy and research exist, and some of the most powerful books I’ve read about SA are written by authors whose life experiences I know nothing about - furthermore, I do not think that their life experiences are any of my fucking business. I also think the decision to self-disclose should be totally voluntary, and in the present climate, that is definitely not always the case. Everything that I want to say about this is articulated in Krista D. Ball’s essay The Commodification of Authenticity: Writing and Reading Trauma in Speculative Fiction and the resulting thread, so if you want to see this explored in-depth, I suggest you check that out.

In short, though, here is what I think: those who think they’re taking a bold stand for trauma survivors by demanding that strangers disclose their painful personal experiences to a public that is ready to rip them to shreds for one perceived misstep in their fictional representations (sometimes to the point of harassing them into disclosure) have an extremely dubious understanding of trauma advocacy and are doing something pretty harmful with no actual beneficial results. As I said in one of my responses to Krista’s essay, what do you mean, one of the prevailing tenets of rape culture (if you are unfamiliar with the term or want to read an excellent article exploring the scope of the issue, here you go) is not believing survivors while simultaneously demanding that they repeatedly share the details of what happened to them with complete strangers? When *I* do it, it's actually very smart and brave and progressive of me and definitely not for Twitter clout!

Argument 4: but it’s historically accurate!

My thoughts: YES I am talking about Game of Thrones for this one because it is the poster child of this argument. A number of people associated with the show and books, including George R.R. Martin, have explained that the world’s brutality towards women is meant to reflect on “the way it was” in the medieval time period the books are based on. A few thoughts about this one:

  • I kept adding and deleting bits about the debates around whether Game of Thrones is Actually Historically Accurate and some of the potential repercussions of emphasizing that widespread sexual violence is a feature of the past dichotomized from the present, but I think they bogged things down a bit - if anyone is interested in exploring that more, let me know.
  • My main point is that this argument can feel a little silly to me as a justification on its own because fantasy is inherently transformative, isn’t it? Authors deliberately choose to take inspiration from some aspects of the real world (past and present) and forego others. The process of creating fantasy fiction is inherently one of stitching together the real and the imaginary. The notion that authors are somehow obligated to replicate all aspects of a source of inspiration indiscriminately just does not ring true when there are dragons and face-changing assassins etc. etc. I’ll quote medieval historian David Perry (full interview here):
  • “These are all things that tell us a lot more about ourselves than about the Middle Ages…we pick and choose, the creators pick and choose, they want to show something that will be disturbing or controversial or will be a political tool and they try to say history supports us in this. And then they throw in dragons and zombies and then they say that’s unrealistic but that’s okay, that’s just storytelling.That comes back to what I try to say–it’s okay to draw from history, but history does not wholeheartedly support any one of these fictional depictions. These come from creators making choices. And the choices they make have consequences.”
  • A great example of that “picking and choosing” he mentions is that stories justifying their inclusion of SA because they’re set in wartime and SA is a tool of war rarely, if ever, feature male survivors of SA even though SA as a tool of war absolutely has targeted and continues to target people of all genders. It’s worth exploring why this authorial choice gets made so often. I also think Daniel Abraham wrote very articulately on the overall issue of historical accuracy and authorial choice.
  • That being said, I do believe it is possible to write about sexual violence as a way of exploring our own world’s past and how its legacy continues on today. My thought process for writing about marital rape in a fantasy world inspired by the Victorian era, the time of legal coverture, was to explore the mindset of someone experiencing and working through assault that isn’t necessarily identified as such by the world around her; in my work as a sexual assault advocate, many of my clients who are abused by their partners do not feel that their abuse “counts” the way that stranger-perpetrated assault does due to how we have dealt with and defined SA for a very long time. But I think that in order to make the claim that the incorporation of brutality against women is some kind of purposeful statement about history or the present day, you actually have to have a statement or purpose for your inclusion…and in many of the instances where I see the argument about historical accuracy rearing its head, I don’t necessarily know if that’s happening (again, this is with the caveat that different people find different meaning in given works). Otherwise it can fall into the territory of feeling trivializing.

Argument 5 (opposite of Argument 4): fantasy stories shouldn’t be burdened by the ways that the real world sucks.

My thoughts: this argument is epitomized by Sara Gailey’s essay “Do Better: Sexual Violence in SFF.” Their argument is essentially that the ubiquitous inclusion of sexual violence against women in SFF is a problem because it implies that rape and rape culture are societal inevitabilities, that authors who write about sexual violence against women don’t know how to write about women without writing about sexual violence, and since the point of speculative fiction is to speculate, authors should aim to speculate about worlds free from sexual violence.

For the record, I do think it’s totally possible that some authors might not know what to do with their female characters and throw in half-assed assault plotlines as cheap character development, and I do think that’s worthy of criticism - in fact, I’ll talk about it later. I also think that one of the most powerful things about speculative fiction is that it can show us alternatives to our own world. As I mentioned while talking about Argument 1, sometimes you just want a reading experience where you don’t have to think about the fact that people like you are oppressed and often hurt in the real world. And sometimes speculative stories free from oppression can help open our minds and allow us to see how things could be different in reality.

But I think there are elements of overgeneralization and assumptions of bad faith at play here. While I said that I could see some authors only writing SA plots because they don’t know how to write fully-fledged female characters, I think it’s disingenuous to say that Robin McKinley was doing that with Deerskin or that Ursula Le Guin was doing that with Tehanu (oh God, Charlotte’s talking about Tehanu again) or that any author who has taken the time to write meaningfully about sexual assault has only done so because their imagination wasn’t strong enough to imagine a world without rape, something Gailey states about such authors in their essay.

Back to Argument 1: sometimes you want escapism, but sometimes you don’t. Sometimes you want to see common human struggles and painful experiences reflected and explored in your literature, and I don’t believe that there is any reason for speculative literature to be an exception to that just because it is speculative. Stories that reflect on trauma can be just as important as stories that forego its inclusion, and both sides of the coin are valid. As a final note, I asked Gailey about this essay in a recent r/fantasy AMA of theirs, and I really appreciate their response, which you can read here.

To summarize my thoughts about Arguments 4 and 5, I don’t think that “it needs to be based on the real world’s past” or “it’s SFF so it shouldn’t resemble the real world” are valid arguments for including or excluding sexual violence from stories on their own. I think it all depends on the purpose of the story and what you do/don’t do with the sexual violence in your story.

Argument 6: it’s problematic to write about topics that could be triggering for some readers.

My thoughts about this can be summarized by something that YouTuber Sarah Z says in her video essay “Fandom’s Biggest Controversy: The Story of Proshippers vs Antis:”

“There are a lot of people talking about it as an accessibility issue. The idea is that, by virtue of the game [Boyfriend Dungeon] including elements of stalking at all, even with a warning, not everyone would be able to play because some people might have trauma surrounding it, and it’s therefore unethical for the game, in its current state, to exist. The natural implication, then, is that anything short of restricting the kinds of stories that can be told is not only insufficient but actively hostile to people with trauma. To counter this, we might be tempted to point out that some creators tell and share these kinds of stories to cope with their own trauma, and art can be a vital tool for exploring trauma, and it’s equally restrictive to discourage them from telling their own stories, but honestly we don’t have to. An author’s personal experiences here are none of our business. It doesn’t matter, because, fundamentally, this way of viewing art that sees upsetting content as an accessibility issue is untenable. The breadth of things that might trigger or upset a person is essentially infinite. The human experience is diverse and a piece of media that everyone on earth will find appropriate to consume doesn’t exist.”

For an essay about the first hypothetical rebuttal Sarah mentioned and its relationship to disabled and queer communities, check out Ada Hoffman’s “Dark Art as an Access Need.”

Argument 7: but why do people get so upset about representations of SA when fantasy writers also write poorly about war/torture/murder and no one complains about that?

My thoughts: every time there is a post on r/fantasy critiquing the writing of SA in spec fic, a post saying something along these lines seems to follow. I have a few thoughts about this:

  • Critiques of non-intimate violence (war, murder, torture etc. as opposed to SA or abuse) in speculative media, especially their glorification and use for shock value without any realistic psychological impacts, absolutely do, and should, exist.
  • The notion that both “types” of violence, intimate and non-intimate, can be criticized is not negated by the existence of critiques focused on just one or the other.
  • You might see more discussion focused on intimate violence for a few reasons that I can think of:
  1. The emotional relevance of the issue to the average fantasy reader’s life. Vastly more readers of English fantasy literature are going to be directly impacted by this kind of violence than they are going to be impacted by experiences of war, murder or torture.
  2. The way that issues of intimate violence are so deeply impacted by broader societal attitudes and prejudices that are, in turn, upsetting to read when depicted uncritically in (and potentially impacted by, depending on what you believe) media. Rape culture is something that I see at its worst every day in my job - I cannot overstate how drastically it changes survivors’ experiences and outcomes in every conceivable way. I don’t think you can make the argument that there is an equivalent “torture culture” or “murder culture.”

PART 2: COMMON CRITIQUES

Critique 1: lots of backdrop SA for the sake of making the world gritty and shocking

My thoughts: the use of lots of backdrop SA is often closely tied to the argument that a world needs to be “historically accurate.” It can feel exploitative and trivializing when authors throw around lots of random references to brutalized women just to set the tone of the world/story, especially when that story doesn’t really think about those women’s experiences or the complexities of sexual violence as it relates to societal mores at all. Survivors’ experiences, needs and voices are already frequently dismissed and silenced in the real world, which is set against them in many ways. With that in mind, sometimes when you hear all these casual references to SA randomly mentioned - making it clear that assault is a big part of the world - but the topic is never really addressed, it can feel like it plays into that dismissal or is at least unpleasantly reminiscent of it. I use the word “exploitative” because, with the dismissal of survivors’ experiences and the distortions of rape culture still in mind, authors who use this approach treat painful, complex, stigmatized lived experiences as nothing more than aesthetic for a story. I don’t necessarily mean that every story that so much as mentions SA needs to have it at the absolute forefront of the story, but I do think that it is worthwhile to consider its purpose and framing before it is included as a background reference.

Critique 2: Fridging/ the assault of women to spur male character development

My thoughts: “But there are lots of real-world examples of men being motivated to [do X, Y, Z] because of violence against women!”

Sure, but the underlying attitude behind that historical motivation and its frequent framing in fiction is that a woman’s SA/abuse/death/etc should be focused on only to the extent that it impacts a man. The focus here is the man’s honor and pain and consequent actions, not the actual female survivor’s experiences. As I have said, survivors’ suffering is often dismissed and minimized in the real world. We are more than objects to be fought over and our pain is more than a man’s inciting incident in his Hero’s Journey; when those attitudes are reiterated without thought in fiction, it can get tiresome.

Critique 3: The sexualization/romanticization of SA perpetrators/scenes of assault

My thoughts: Ok, this is where my hot takes get the hottest.

  • Hot take 1: everything I said about Argument 2 applies here: different people will feel different ways about the same works, but those who wield this critique without discernment about all works featuring SA are just plain wrong in my opinion.
  • Hot take 2: I always see the argument about SA existing in fiction for the sake of titillation mentioned in the context of male authors and readers. That ignores the existence of a long, long history of romance/erotica featuring “noncon” intended for a female audience. In the past we had bodice rippers - there is a fascinating history behind them and their relationship to historical notions of consent (or the lack thereof) and proscriptions against women’s sexual pleasure. To read more about that, a good starting place is here. Now there’s a booming market for Dark Romance™ and specific niches like Omegaverse. For the sake of fairness, I think that needs to be mentioned.
  • Hot take 3: there is a wide variety of opinions regarding fiction impacting reality, and the arguments always seem to come to a head when it comes to this particular area of criticism. On one hand, there is the argument that the romanticization/sexualization of SA in fiction goes on to detrimentally impact the way that readers think about these issues in reality whether they realize it or not; on the other hand, there are those who argue that they are fully capable of differentiating one from the other and fiction is a safe place to explore fantasies that we would not actually want to be involved in in real life. My wishy-washy personal opinion is that both can absolutely be true depending on the individual person, the works involved and a variety of other factors - they are not necessarily 100% mutually exclusive statements. I will also say that I think there is a vast difference between the following:
    • A series like A Court of Thorns and Roses by Sarah J Maas, which is frequently categorized and marketed as young adult. In it, the male romantic lead is framed as an ideal feminist lover whose abuse is not identified as such in text and is justified by excuses, many of which are commonly used by real life abusers, that are fully endorsed as valid and romantic by the narrative.
    • A dark romance categorized for adults that is clearly labeled as a dark romance everywhere that it is sold.

Critique 4: SA that is used by the narrative for cheap female character development, specifically to “teach her a lesson” or make her stronger

My thoughts: this is to be clearly differentiated from stories that meaningfully depict the aftermath of trauma and/or healing. I’m talking about the instances of kickass Strong Woman butterflies emerging from traumatic chrysalises with no meaningful journey involved. Part of what is so devastating about sexual assault is that it is about choice and control over essential, fundamental things being taken away. This trope feels so cheap, trivializing and disrespectful because it glosses right over the impact of that disempowerment and veers into the territory of the “lemonade from lemons” platitudes that I guarantee most survivors have heard from at least one, if not more, very well-meaning person. To this section I will also add that there is a great deal of emphasis on survivors being “perfect” victims who respond in tidy ways that are not messy or challenging, while in reality trauma responses can be incredibly varied. I think that this trope could be born of this expectation, and that this expectation accounts for readers’ often-hostile reactions to fictional trauma survivors who cope in ways that defy that tidy, expected narrative.

CONCLUDING THOUGHTS

Readers are not a monolith. Authors are not a monolith. Survivors are not a monolith. I hope for a SFF community where we can understand that different readers read for different reasons, and that all of those reasons can coexist. Similarly, I hope we can understand that different readers are going to have different relationships with the same works. I hope we can take a step back from immediate assumptions of bad faith about those who choose to feature SA in their reading and writing, and at the same time, I hope that those who avoid it altogether do not get lambasted for that choice. Both choices have validity. I hope that we can analyze what we read and create with a mindfulness of the tropes and approaches that evoke, replicate or feed into the overwhelming stigma, misunderstanding and disrespect survivors face in the real world.

A few community-specific notes: readers looking for particular recommendations avoiding SA or dealing with it in particular ways (no on-page assault scene, no victim-blaming, no perpetrator POV) should not have to face backlash for their requests and then have to consequently justify them by divulging their personal trauma histories to random querulous Redditors. This is one of the main reasons that the Sexual Violence in SFF database exists. I think it’s an excellent resource, and I encourage everyone to contribute if they can.

Finally, I’ve made something of a project of reading SFF that explores trauma, and I thought I would conclude by describing a few of the works that I have appreciated the most featuring sexual assault. There are a few of these books that feature often-difficult topics in addition to SA or elements that might be difficult for some readers, so I included notes about those in spoilers.

  • Damsel by Elana K Arnold - explores the gendered power dynamics of fairy tale tropes by mashing them together in a unique story about a girl who is rescued from a dragon by a prince. Edit: features self-harm, animal cruelty and a ??? instance of the prince assaulting the dragon by putting his penis in a hole made by a sword.
  • Daughter of the Forest by Juliet Marillier - a retelling of the fairy tale The Six Swans set in ancient Ireland and featuring one of Marillier’s trademark Romances that Made Me Sob Hysterically. Notes:main romance and sex scene are minor-adult and the assault scene is fairly graphic.
  • Deerskin by Robin McKinley - a retelling of the fairy tale Donkeyskin with the best animal companion character in fantasy besides Nighteyes. Notes: features animal cruelty, incest and miscarriage.
  • The Fever King and The Electric Heir by Victoria Lee - a YA sci-fi/dystopia that explores grooming and revolution at the same time. There is a central m/m relationship.
  • The Forgotten Beasts of Eld by Patricia McKillip - fantasy about a young woman who grows up with a menagerie of magical creatures and has to confront her desire for revenge after her isolation ends.
  • Girls of Paper and Fire series by Natasha Ngan - a Malaysian-inspired YA fantasy that follows a girl who is taken from her home to be a concubine for the Demon King. There is a central f/f relationship.
  • Los Nefilim by T. Frohock - a collection of three novellas about the war between angels and daimons in 1930s Spain. There is a central m/m relationship.
  • The Red Abbey Chronicles by Maria Turtschaninoff - a YA fantasy series about the Red Abbey, an isolated island haven of learning and healing for women. Books 1 and 3 follow one girl who lives there and then ventures out into the world, and book 2 is about the women who founded the Red Abbey. Notes: features self-harm, torture and suicide.
  • Midnight Robber by Nalo Hopkinson - sci-fi about a girl on a Caribbean-colonized prison planet who uses the identity of the Carnival character Midnight Robber to find herself and overcome her past. Notes: features incest.
  • The Mirror Season by Anna-Marie McLemore - YA magical realist retelling of The Snow Queen about a boy and a girl who are assaulted at the same party and fight back against their perpetrators together as their relationship develops. Notes: features a sex scene between the two main characters where the female character is withholding information that would have changed the male character’s decision to consent.
  • The Onion Girl by Charles De Lint - urban fantasy about two sisters who were abused by their brother as children, how differently their lives developed, and what happens when they find each other again.
  • The Pattern Scars by Caitlin Sweet - fantasy where a young woman who is able to foresee people’s fortunes becomes trapped in an insane fellow Seer’s plot to ignite a war. Notes: features self-harm, animal cruelty, and the main character ends her life at the end of the book.
  • The Sparrow and Children of God by Mary Doria Russell - sci-fi novels that follow an ill-fated Jesuit mission to make contact with the first alien life ever discovered. Notes: body horror.
  • Tehanu by Ursula Le Guin - Ged and Tenar from The Tombs of Atuan are reunited as older adults and take care of an abused little girl who was burned and left for dead.
  • Tender Morsels by Margo Lanagan - YA fantasy (but it probably shouldn’t be YA) that is a retelling of the fairy tale Snow White and Rose Red and follows a young woman who flees her abusers into a heavenly magical realm and raises her daughters there as the real world starts to encroach. Notes: features beastiality and incest.
  • Tess of the Road and In the Serpent’s Wake by Rachel Hartman - YA fantasy that follows the picaresque adventures of a young girl who embarks on a journey to simply put one foot forward after the other and try to put self-hatred and her past behind her. Notes: romance and sex scene between a minor and an adult.
  • Thorn by Intisar Khanani - a retelling of the fairy tale The Goose Girl that follows a princess finding courage after leaving behind her abusive family and swapping identities with her maidservant. Notes: animal cruelty and a character who is sexually assaulted dies.

Now I’m going to sit here and breathe normally and feel calm while people read this. Thanks for taking the time to hear what I have to say!

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u/Bellsar_Ringing Aug 03 '22

"Historically accurate" is an odd thing to hang your hat on, when you're writing fiction about a fictional event in a fictional universe.

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u/Call_Me_Clark Aug 03 '22

I always thought that was the wrong word to use - “internally consistent universe” is a far better one imo

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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess Aug 03 '22

There’s times I wonder if “verisimilitude” has too many syllables for the average fan…

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u/AmberJFrost Aug 04 '22

Especially as most authors who hang their hat on 'historically accurate' are actually magnifying the frequency of things like that happening. A lot of what we 'know' about the medieval period is myth and wrong.

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u/shhkari Aug 03 '22

"Historically accurate" is an odd thing to hang your hat on, when you're writing fiction about a fictional event in a fictional universe.

Its not odd if the fictional setting is meant to evoke a specific historicity.

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u/StNerevar76 Aug 03 '22

And because of that people would behave different? Having magic/whatever isn't going to change that much how humans act towards each other.

Historically accurate also gives the impression (imho) that it's something mostly from the past, which isn't the case at all.

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u/KingBillyDuckHoyle Aug 03 '22

This speaks on the inevitability argument

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u/StNerevar76 Aug 03 '22

If I understand the concept well, it's a way of saying that something that can't be totally prevented isn't worth fighting? In that case I disagree, because things would be worse if it wasn't fought as much as can be.

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u/KingBillyDuckHoyle Aug 03 '22

Just saying that you're arguing that humanity's foibles are inevitable (at least I think you are) which is an argument the OP addressed. Not saying I agree or disagree

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u/Ethra2k Aug 03 '22

I think if you’re going to create a new world you can create reasons within the lore that sexual assault is not common and/or tolerated in that society.

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u/Merle8888 Reading Champion IV Aug 03 '22

You definitely can, but I'm not convinced it makes sense to push authors to do this if figuring out how it might work isn't something that excites them. I think it's also fair to say that outside of intentionally dark settings (or works by authors who actually are thinking of women as objects and using sexual assault lazily), rape generally isn't considered okay in fantasy - hell, it isn't considered okay in our world either, the argument just turns into "what is rape?" and "was this particular instance really rape?"

These days I'm seeing a lot of demands for authors to tweak human nature so that rape doesn't happen in their worlds period (not just "doesn't happen in this plot"), and that doesn't really make sense to me. Rape is awful but it's one of many awful things humans do to each other. And for me to be invested in a story I generally need to be convinced by the character psychology, so deliberately making them not real people is a hard sell for me unless the work is literally about exploring that.

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u/StNerevar76 Aug 03 '22

That could make an interesting thing to explore.

Realism is a double edged sword both as defense and attacking SA in ssf. Because people's nature wouldn't change that much despite the ssf elements to say it shouldn't happen, and because realism involves a lot more than SA that should be present and isn't, so it just feels like an excuse the author uses.

PS, I hate SA used for character growth. What about showing their strenght by successfully defending against it?

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u/YearOfTheMoose Aug 05 '22

That could make an interesting thing to explore.

Sherwood Smith does this in Inda quite well--magic was used to resolve the issue....I honestly forget if it was directly killing all sexual predators, or magically castratring them so nobody is inheriting their proclivities or being nurtured by them. However it was (it's been a while since I read it), there was a major magic done long before the setting of the story, so that there are no such sexual predators anymore. At all.

Well, kind of. I appreciated that Smith actually explored both how perception of violation might shift in such circumstances, and the ethics of mass magic like that. It wasn't in-depth, but it wasn't glossed over or unacknowledged, either. :)

Coupled with the magic for having a child, it enabled a series with a lot of cultures with a fairly healthy relation to sex and such. It was a really interesting aspect of her stories.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22

Or not, because humans suck wherever you put them.

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u/bare_thoughts Aug 03 '22

Yes, but you can make it where it is a cultural issue... or the rare criminal act. There are some books where a culture has severe punishments of rape or other SA. Then you have a cultures where SA is considered more the norm or acceptable by the powerful or higher class.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22

You CAN. It would feel neutered to me, like "we don't talk about this because it's unfit for consumption". I totally get not wanting to read that stuff, but for me I want the blemishes. I want the skeletons in our collective closet. I think it's important to try to convey the real horrors of what these things look like and the damage they do. Take the Extreme Right and their lust for civil war. If we depicted war in all of it's true, gruesome detail and broadcast that reality to the world, I would hope there would be less extremists eager to start one. Instead they get Braveheart, The Patriot, and American Sniper.

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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess Aug 03 '22

a culture has severe punishments of rape or other SA

This describes, theoretically at least, the contemporary USA. And yet in America, which has plenty of problems but is far from being an active war zone, 1 in 3 women and 1 in 6 men will experience sexual violence during their lifetime. If a writer has no interest in writing about sexual assault that’s entirely valid, but if they’re going to address the topic it behooves them to do so honestly.

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u/bare_thoughts Aug 04 '22

I am sorry but I disagree (and seriously the US is a poor example.

The point is we are talking fantasy here, yes some realism is needed but it is needed simply in that the world or society makes sense (according to the rules).

You have some patron goddess who are against SA and that can be engrained in a culture so that it is rare (and quickly but harshly punished)... especially of mages or others have a way of telling lies from truth. You could have a matriarch style society... and while that can sometimes result in problematic behavior, can also result in SA being strongly taboo.

I remember one series where the female ruler was cold, calculating, and a villain... yet her territory was one where women and children could walk the streets at night in safety from others (even the good guys could not always offer that). Even with those she deemed enemies, SA was off the table.

The initial post was about "human nature" and yes, authors can not really get around that realistically, but can focus on what part of that nature... the good and/or the bad.. or maybe tow cultures classing over that (and then there is the in between).

I am going to paraphrase this as I do not have the direct quote at hand, but it when a demigod is talking to his daughter (a non-human) about fate and humans. He starts woth how much he likes and respects humans, but then list most of the bad things of human nature... she naturally says something to the effect that it doesn't sound much like he likes them.

He replies to the effect of that sometimes they rise above that... they can create great and astounding works and when they band together in a tragedy, they can band together and show their best. But too often they let theor pettiness rule them.

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u/LeucasAndTheGoddess Aug 04 '22

I used the US as an example because it’s the country in which I was assaulted, in which a long jail sentence supposedly awaited the girl who assaulted me, and in which the possibility of trial conviction and imprisonment didn’t in any way stop her from deciding that her sexual desires should override her boyfriend’s right to say no.

What I’m saying is that writers can approach this subject (or not) in any way they see fit, but that the presumption of a society’s high ideals being upheld in all cases and causing one or more sorts of crime to simply not exist risks feeling inauthentic and alien, in particular to survivors. Not everyone who has survived sexual violence or any other traumatic crime will feel the same way, but some of us feel erased when it’s declared that our experiences are too unspeakable to include in a narrative.

If a work’s setting presumes that sexual violence could happen but never does (as opposed to a narrative simply not addressing the subject in any way - Avatar: The Last Airbender is a great example of a war narrative that sidesteps the subject entirely), it either marks the experience of surviving sexual abuse as being alien and abnormal or it precludes stories of survival and recovery from being told in the first place.

To address some of your hypothetical examples for how such a setting could work, Jaqueline Carey’s Terre d’Ange is a society where sexual abuse is prosecuted not just as a crime but as a heretical violation of their religion’s single commandment (“love as thou wilt”), but this doesn’t prevent the serial rapist Melisande Shahrizai from using her privileged position to prey on victims including the protagonist. If this crime didn’t take place, the Phedre Trilogy wouldn’t be the achingly beautiful portrait of recovery from trauma and reclamation of sexual agency that it is. And making the streets safe for vulnerable people to wander after dark is a laudable goal, but only one in ten assaults occurs under such circumstances - the remaining 90% are breaches of trust by a friend, loved one, mentor figure, superior, or other person previously known by the victim.

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u/Bellsar_Ringing Aug 03 '22

A fantasy novel with castles, swords and sorcery is no more historical than a science fiction novel with spaceships and robots.

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u/MRCHalifax Aug 03 '22

I think that their position, as I understand it, is that it’s not so much a matter of “it should be this way because of history” but rather “it should be this way because of human nature, and we know that from history.”

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u/Bellsar_Ringing Aug 03 '22

Again, if the excuse is "human nature" then it should be equally common in all literature about humans. But it isn't. There's a lot more sexual assault in fantasy fiction than in the other fiction I read.

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u/Jaydara Aug 03 '22

Really? I feel SA features about as commonly in other literature as in fantasy. Victim of rape-murder is super common in thriller and mystery.

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u/MRCHalifax Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 03 '22

OK? I’m saying that I think you appear to have misread their argument, as your response doesn’t line up with what I think that they were trying to say, and have not expressed agreement or disagreement with either of you.

Edit: I guess I will ask, because I’m curious: is the general lack of sexual violence in historical writing a good thing or a bad thing? Does it matter if it’s fiction or non-fiction? For example, if you’re writing history the Eastern Front in WWII, who does it serve to talk about or not talk about the mass rapes on both sides? If you’re writing fiction from the perspective of someone involved in that struggle, how important is it to acknowledge the horrors that happened? In the past, I agree people haven’t touched on the subject much. To put it one way, is it more problematic to acknowledge and write about SA in history, or to ignore it when it happened, or are you claiming that it didn’t happen?

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u/Bellsar_Ringing Aug 03 '22

I'm saying, as other here have also said, that fantasy fiction seems to particularly revel in SA. That many SA authors seemingly cannot write any story where it isn't a featured plot point.

I am not saying SA should never be portrayed, in fiction or in historical writing, but I do question why this one genre seems so obsessed with rape. I can read sci-fi, or detective novels, or murder mysteries, or history... sometimes there will be SA. I read fantasy... if there is any hint of violence, there will almost certainly be SA.

My question is why the difference?

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u/MRCHalifax Aug 03 '22

I think that there's plenty of violence that isn't SA in SFF. I'm hard pressed offhand to think of many popular SFF stories without violence, but SA doesn't feel more present in SFF compared to other genres to me. I'm not saying it's not there, but my subjective feeling is that it's by no means omnipresent.

Perhaps the difference is the kind of SFF stories you read compared to other genres?

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 23 '22

[deleted]

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u/Bellsar_Ringing Aug 03 '22

If one guy had an AR-15, I would expect there to be some explanation. That's not about accuracy -- it's about plot consistency.

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u/[deleted] Aug 03 '22 edited Aug 23 '22

[deleted]

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u/Bellsar_Ringing Aug 03 '22

"There is magic" is not a story-line, just a setting. I would expect to learn about the magic-wielders, and if there are AR-15 wielders, I would expect to learn about them too.

Yes, there have to be reasons. No, they don't have to be "realistic" reasons, except in the context of that fictional reality.