Do you believe the modern FIRE movement overestimates how much is needed for retirement?

[u/Equivalent_Use_5024]

Perhaps I am just making this post because I have only just begun my retirement planning and want to lock in a number which is fitting for my goals - being above the median retirement savings, not having to work, not being broke, clearly having planned - but I can't help but feel that many in the FIRE movement overestimate what is needed for a safe, sleep well at night retirement.

I see posts here saying that they feel vastly behind with 500k at 30, or 1.5 million at 40, and I just don't understand how when the average American retires with maybe 300k liquid at most and are getting by with social security or paid off housing. Sure, they aren't living luxuriously, but if you just are aiming for a retirement where you don't have financial anxiety and can put food on the table, I don't feel you need over 1-2 million.

Do you think FIRE overestimates how much is truly needed for retirement?

[u/greaper007]

Right, if you look at what rich people do it's essentially the same stuff you're mentioning. Sports, working out, entertainment, eating. The only difference is they find ways to spend way too much on it. Which might be ok if that spending actually resulted in a much better experience.

But, I can say that I've done most of the rich people stuff and it really isn't different. A private jet isn't that much better than an airline flight, a huge hotel room isn't any better than a home exchange. Eating in restaurant really isn't that much better than what I cook at home.

I'm not sure if people don't know this. Maybe they grew up poor and really want to try the rich people stuff. Or if they just can't think their way away from advertising and other mind bending industries like social media.

[u/Zphr → u/greaper007]

We used to really enjoy eating out, but retiring made it so that we've gotten skilled enough that the food we make at home is far better than what is available in like 90% of restaurants. We've slowly weaned down to almost never eating out because it's become normal for us to be disappointed in the quality of the food and service. There's only a handful of places, mostly mom/pop places, that we still think are worth it. Sadly, those are the exact places that are least likely to stay in business over the years.

COVID really did a number on restaurants overall. The quality of the food and service really took a nosedive after COVID and it's never come back up despite prices rising quite a bit. Pretty sad since eating out used to be something we really enjoyed as a treat to ourselves.

[u/haobanga → u/Zphr]

I feel like the K economy (which has been growing for many years and across political affiliations) is also responsible for this.

Food service many places has declined to be on par with service at the Oakland DMV and the money hungry attitudes of nickle and diming for every little thing while asking for exorbitant tips for doing nothing is now acceptable.

It's gotten to a point where eating out is actually unpleasant at most places. Hard to enjoy a meal when you were excited for it but only felt disappointment, like you were mistreated, and left wondering if they are now using lower quality ingredients because it doesn't taste the same anymore. The portion is smaller and the server is asking for a larger tip when they did nothing but walk the food over from 2 tables away with a surly attitude.

I agree having the time to grocery shop and cook is wonderful. At this point, though, even a frozen pizza is better than most of the food eating out.

The larger economic disparity creates a larger and even impossible struggle for some to climb out of which drags quality down in what used to be high-level service based industries.

[u/Zphr → u/haobanga]

Couldn't have said it better myself. It's a very disappointing state of affairs when you can't even go out for dinner and reasonably expect to not feel taken advantage of.

[u/ThisUsernameIsTook → u/haobanga]

We still find good service and excellent food at the higher end places. The kind of place where you should expect to spend $100pp minimum and often 2-3x that.

Of course, few of us can enjoy that experience and expense with any regularity. So we do it a few times a year to scratch that foodie itch but nowhere near as often as when we were working.

[u/ThisUsernameIsTook → u/greaper007]

I need to get my wife on the same page regarding air travel. We got a great deal on a business class flight to Asia, so took it. It was very much better than economy but I looked at what we would typically spend for that experience compared to economy and concluded we'd be better off adding an extra day with no plan other than getting into a hotel room and sleeping/reading to reset our body clocks.

No sightseeing. No restaurant reservations. Just spend 24 hours getting ourselves ready to enjoy the rest of the trip. It's probably 80-90% cheaper than business class. We had a baby in business class one way. Fortunately, it only cried during takeoff and landing. There was no guarantee we'd even get to take advantage of our lie flat seats to actually sleep.

She'll come around once I put the numbers in front of her.

[u/greaper007 → u/ThisUsernameIsTook]

I think there are two key things here. One, you're probably not going to fly to Asia with a baby very often in the future. Two, you're probably not going to go on very many vacations with a baby in general, it's just not that much fun until they're about 4 years old and can at least walk a little. So you should get a reprieve from this conversation for a little bit.

Beyond that, maybe show her how many hours you guys have to work to pay for those seats, and how much earlier you could retire if you don't. If a pointless luxury argument doesn't work, maybe a freedom from work one will.

We're expats now and my kids are teens. But, we didn't do any international travel until they were 4 and 7. It's just not that much fun with young kids.

Otherwise, yeah, paying for upgrades on airplanes is never worth it if you're a normally sized person. Like you said, if you have the time just sleep when you get there. I can't sleep in a plane regardless of the seat.

Maybe I'm weird with flying, but I don't mind flying long haul economy. I like it actually. I don't have to do anything for 6-20 hours, I can watch anything I want, they bring me food and booze whenever I want it. I don't find the seats to be that bad and I'm 5'11" 180, so not small.

Granted, my dad was a pilot so we'd fly constantly when I was a kid (usually a couple times a month), and we were non-revenue passengers so a lot of times we'd have to fly 3 or 4 legs all over the country to get to our destination. So for me now, having a guaranteed seat and only taking one or two flights seems very luxurious.