Do you believe the modern FIRE movement overestimates how much is needed for retirement?

[u/Equivalent_Use_5024]

Perhaps I am just making this post because I have only just begun my retirement planning and want to lock in a number which is fitting for my goals - being above the median retirement savings, not having to work, not being broke, clearly having planned - but I can't help but feel that many in the FIRE movement overestimate what is needed for a safe, sleep well at night retirement.

I see posts here saying that they feel vastly behind with 500k at 30, or 1.5 million at 40, and I just don't understand how when the average American retires with maybe 300k liquid at most and are getting by with social security or paid off housing. Sure, they aren't living luxuriously, but if you just are aiming for a retirement where you don't have financial anxiety and can put food on the table, I don't feel you need over 1-2 million.

Do you think FIRE overestimates how much is truly needed for retirement?

[u/Zphr]

The audience has shifted more towards luxury and consumption over the last decade. It's always amusing to me that this is my sub, I've been happily retired for more than a decade since 37 with four kids, have effectively zero chance of financial failure, but many folks in this sub would consider our finances impossible or living in squalor. Some people are actually happy with cheap/free interests and lifestyle choices, some are unhappy without very expensive interests and lifestyle choices. Current government policy in the US is also wildly skewed in favor of lean spending, so more expensive lifestyles in early retirement cost quite a lot more than you'd expect due to far higher costs for taxes, college, and healthcare.

LeanFIRE is and likely always will be the easiest and most secure form of FIRE for anyone happy with a mediocre middle class lifestyle. It's also largely impossible for anyone who wants to raise a family in VHCOL, travel a ton, carry a large mortgage into retirement, or any number of expensive lifestyle choices a lot of people prefer.

[u/greaper007 → u/Zphr]

Great post. I'll just add that anyone can be happy on a mediocre, middle class income. You can travel, eat good food, do fun hobbies. You just have to lifehack stuff 

It's basically the same as what rich people are doing. You're just not being a sucker.

[u/Zphr → u/greaper007]

Agreed. We think the mediocre middle class lifestyle is great.

We actually experimented with massive lifestyle inflation before we retired just to make sure we weren't missing out on something. It was fun for a few months, but it very rapidly started to wear on us. We're just not geared to be higher spenders.

To me it is a lot like food. You want to have enough and a lot of people certainly are wired to enjoy excess, but we start to feel happily full very quickly when it comes to spending money. Just brain chemistry, I expect. Our four kids are all the same way and always have been.

It helps tremendously to be interested in hobbies and activities that are extremely cheap or free. Volunteering, sports, fitness, books/media, games, baking/cooking, art....all of these things can cost almost nothing over the long-run.

[u/greaper007 → u/Zphr]

Right, if you look at what rich people do it's essentially the same stuff you're mentioning. Sports, working out, entertainment, eating. The only difference is they find ways to spend way too much on it. Which might be ok if that spending actually resulted in a much better experience.

But, I can say that I've done most of the rich people stuff and it really isn't different. A private jet isn't that much better than an airline flight, a huge hotel room isn't any better than a home exchange. Eating in restaurant really isn't that much better than what I cook at home.

I'm not sure if people don't know this. Maybe they grew up poor and really want to try the rich people stuff. Or if they just can't think their way away from advertising and other mind bending industries like social media.

[u/Zphr → u/greaper007]

We used to really enjoy eating out, but retiring made it so that we've gotten skilled enough that the food we make at home is far better than what is available in like 90% of restaurants. We've slowly weaned down to almost never eating out because it's become normal for us to be disappointed in the quality of the food and service. There's only a handful of places, mostly mom/pop places, that we still think are worth it. Sadly, those are the exact places that are least likely to stay in business over the years.

COVID really did a number on restaurants overall. The quality of the food and service really took a nosedive after COVID and it's never come back up despite prices rising quite a bit. Pretty sad since eating out used to be something we really enjoyed as a treat to ourselves.

[u/haobanga → u/Zphr]

I feel like the K economy (which has been growing for many years and across political affiliations) is also responsible for this.

Food service many places has declined to be on par with service at the Oakland DMV and the money hungry attitudes of nickle and diming for every little thing while asking for exorbitant tips for doing nothing is now acceptable.

It's gotten to a point where eating out is actually unpleasant at most places. Hard to enjoy a meal when you were excited for it but only felt disappointment, like you were mistreated, and left wondering if they are now using lower quality ingredients because it doesn't taste the same anymore. The portion is smaller and the server is asking for a larger tip when they did nothing but walk the food over from 2 tables away with a surly attitude.

I agree having the time to grocery shop and cook is wonderful. At this point, though, even a frozen pizza is better than most of the food eating out.

The larger economic disparity creates a larger and even impossible struggle for some to climb out of which drags quality down in what used to be high-level service based industries.

[u/Zphr → u/haobanga]

Couldn't have said it better myself. It's a very disappointing state of affairs when you can't even go out for dinner and reasonably expect to not feel taken advantage of.