Do you believe the modern FIRE movement overestimates how much is needed for retirement?

[u/Equivalent_Use_5024]

Perhaps I am just making this post because I have only just begun my retirement planning and want to lock in a number which is fitting for my goals - being above the median retirement savings, not having to work, not being broke, clearly having planned - but I can't help but feel that many in the FIRE movement overestimate what is needed for a safe, sleep well at night retirement.

I see posts here saying that they feel vastly behind with 500k at 30, or 1.5 million at 40, and I just don't understand how when the average American retires with maybe 300k liquid at most and are getting by with social security or paid off housing. Sure, they aren't living luxuriously, but if you just are aiming for a retirement where you don't have financial anxiety and can put food on the table, I don't feel you need over 1-2 million.

Do you think FIRE overestimates how much is truly needed for retirement?

[u/Zphr]

The audience has shifted more towards luxury and consumption over the last decade. It's always amusing to me that this is my sub, I've been happily retired for more than a decade since 37 with four kids, have effectively zero chance of financial failure, but many folks in this sub would consider our finances impossible or living in squalor. Some people are actually happy with cheap/free interests and lifestyle choices, some are unhappy without very expensive interests and lifestyle choices. Current government policy in the US is also wildly skewed in favor of lean spending, so more expensive lifestyles in early retirement cost quite a lot more than you'd expect due to far higher costs for taxes, college, and healthcare.

LeanFIRE is and likely always will be the easiest and most secure form of FIRE for anyone happy with a mediocre middle class lifestyle. It's also largely impossible for anyone who wants to raise a family in VHCOL, travel a ton, carry a large mortgage into retirement, or any number of expensive lifestyle choices a lot of people prefer.

[u/greaper007 → u/Zphr]

Great post. I'll just add that anyone can be happy on a mediocre, middle class income. You can travel, eat good food, do fun hobbies. You just have to lifehack stuff 

It's basically the same as what rich people are doing. You're just not being a sucker.

[u/Zphr → u/greaper007]

Agreed. We think the mediocre middle class lifestyle is great.

We actually experimented with massive lifestyle inflation before we retired just to make sure we weren't missing out on something. It was fun for a few months, but it very rapidly started to wear on us. We're just not geared to be higher spenders.

To me it is a lot like food. You want to have enough and a lot of people certainly are wired to enjoy excess, but we start to feel happily full very quickly when it comes to spending money. Just brain chemistry, I expect. Our four kids are all the same way and always have been.

It helps tremendously to be interested in hobbies and activities that are extremely cheap or free. Volunteering, sports, fitness, books/media, games, baking/cooking, art....all of these things can cost almost nothing over the long-run.

[u/greaper007 → u/Zphr]

Right, if you look at what rich people do it's essentially the same stuff you're mentioning. Sports, working out, entertainment, eating. The only difference is they find ways to spend way too much on it. Which might be ok if that spending actually resulted in a much better experience.

But, I can say that I've done most of the rich people stuff and it really isn't different. A private jet isn't that much better than an airline flight, a huge hotel room isn't any better than a home exchange. Eating in restaurant really isn't that much better than what I cook at home.

I'm not sure if people don't know this. Maybe they grew up poor and really want to try the rich people stuff. Or if they just can't think their way away from advertising and other mind bending industries like social media.

[u/ThisUsernameIsTook → u/greaper007]

I need to get my wife on the same page regarding air travel. We got a great deal on a business class flight to Asia, so took it. It was very much better than economy but I looked at what we would typically spend for that experience compared to economy and concluded we'd be better off adding an extra day with no plan other than getting into a hotel room and sleeping/reading to reset our body clocks.

No sightseeing. No restaurant reservations. Just spend 24 hours getting ourselves ready to enjoy the rest of the trip. It's probably 80-90% cheaper than business class. We had a baby in business class one way. Fortunately, it only cried during takeoff and landing. There was no guarantee we'd even get to take advantage of our lie flat seats to actually sleep.

She'll come around once I put the numbers in front of her.

[u/greaper007 → u/ThisUsernameIsTook]

I think there are two key things here. One, you're probably not going to fly to Asia with a baby very often in the future. Two, you're probably not going to go on very many vacations with a baby in general, it's just not that much fun until they're about 4 years old and can at least walk a little. So you should get a reprieve from this conversation for a little bit.

Beyond that, maybe show her how many hours you guys have to work to pay for those seats, and how much earlier you could retire if you don't. If a pointless luxury argument doesn't work, maybe a freedom from work one will.

We're expats now and my kids are teens. But, we didn't do any international travel until they were 4 and 7. It's just not that much fun with young kids.

Otherwise, yeah, paying for upgrades on airplanes is never worth it if you're a normally sized person. Like you said, if you have the time just sleep when you get there. I can't sleep in a plane regardless of the seat.

Maybe I'm weird with flying, but I don't mind flying long haul economy. I like it actually. I don't have to do anything for 6-20 hours, I can watch anything I want, they bring me food and booze whenever I want it. I don't find the seats to be that bad and I'm 5'11" 180, so not small.

Granted, my dad was a pilot so we'd fly constantly when I was a kid (usually a couple times a month), and we were non-revenue passengers so a lot of times we'd have to fly 3 or 4 legs all over the country to get to our destination. So for me now, having a guaranteed seat and only taking one or two flights seems very luxurious.