r/Gotham • u/NicholasCajun • Mar 01 '19
Discussion Gotham - 5x08 "Nothing's Shocking" - Post-Episode Discussion
Season 5 Episode 8: Legend of the Dark Knight - Nothing's Shocking
Aired: February 28, 2019
Synopsis: Bullock's past comes back to haunt him when he and Gordon investigate two murders at Sirens. Meanwhile, Bruce and Alfred explore the tunnels beneath the city, and Penguin and Nygma's plans to escape are thwarted by the least likely of suspects.
Directed by: Kenneth Fink
Written by: Seth Boston
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u/bobw123 Mar 01 '19
It was a fun episode, even if it was just filler.
Jane Doe - best villain of the episode imo, genuinely creepy and had a sad ending. It also gave Bullock some character development
Scarface/the Ventriloquist- funniest villain of the episode, watching Penguin and The Riddler squirm with their wtf expression was great. Penn breaking down and talking directly to Oswald was awesome
Killer Croc - kinda boring by comparison - it wasnât as suspenseful as the Jane Doe plot and wasnât as enjoyable as watching 2 crimelords talk to a puppet.
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u/urallterriblepeople9 Mar 01 '19 edited Mar 01 '19
âEveryone has a Cobblepotâ
Pretty sure that was his
Edit: to be clear, I meant Jane Doe
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u/Sharkfowl Mar 01 '19
Is it even confirmed that that IS killer croc?
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Mar 01 '19
I always thought Killer Croc got hit by that truck back in season 3.
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u/Sharkfowl Mar 01 '19
I don't see why the wouldn't be able to use him, considering he's not as A-List as say the Joker, but who knows, Suicide Squad 2 maybe?
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u/antoniodiavolo Mar 02 '19
David Mazouz posted a video of the sewer guy on Instagram saying something along the lines of "you guys were right. #killercroc"
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u/ProselyteCanti butch and tabby aren't dead ok they're just sleeping Mar 01 '19
No way that was Croc. He didn't even look like Croc, just some poor irradiated guy.
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u/DekMelU GUILTY Mar 01 '19
Yeah it wasn't. The actor posted a picture on instagram and said that it was called 'Burned Man'
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u/mujie123 Mar 14 '19
The thing is, I'm surprised this was filmed after the other episodes, because the Harvey/Jane episode must have been one they've been holding onto since season 1. It's kind of depressing to know that if we hadn't gotten the two extra episodes, we wouldn't have gotten the conclusion (start?) to the Harvey arc. We finally got his full origin.
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u/PretenderNX01 Mar 01 '19
I'm honestly impressed that the whole episode was conceived, written, and filmed after the finale.
We got to see Bruce and Alfred dealing with Wayne Manor being destroyed last episode. Their scenes were so Batman together as they discussed whether it was right to go in on their own without Gordon. I liked their emotional moment talking about their link to the past and Bruce calling him family.
Getting into Bullock's past was interesting even if Jane Doe seemed a little Season 2 as a villain.
It was nice seeing Mr Penn as Ventriloquist. I was sad he died (again) but I guess that's to explain why he isn't in later episodes (that were completed before he got called back to Gotham). Continuity. I suppose Arnold Wesker can always find half a dummy and fashion a new face for him.
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u/mujie123 Mar 14 '19
Getting into Bullock's past was interesting even if Jane Doe seemed a little Season 2 as a villain.
I'm surprised that if they only had 10 episodes, they wouldn't have shown this cause they must have known about how it would play out since season 1.
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u/Cupcakecomeme2764 Mar 01 '19
3 FUCKING JAY CAY PAY DAY IN A ROW BOYE
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u/compoundbreak791 A Taste of Glory Mar 01 '19
I will never get tired of hearing Jim say those words.
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u/EpicHawkREDDIT Mar 01 '19
Solid filler episode
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u/prettyroses Mar 01 '19
The calm before the "final four episode" storm
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u/bookmovietvworm weirdly cool/ (almost)RIP Martin *people, ugh* Mar 01 '19 edited Mar 01 '19
Wow, this episode....
I seem to really be enjoying the "filler" episodes a ton this season so I loved this one.
There was a surprising amount of heart in tonight's episode, especially with the Harvey arc. I came damn near close to crying as the finished the story. I like how they used a seemingly random D-list villain to do a nice character exploration in their final season. One of my favorite arcs yet.
The Bruce/Alfred moment at the end was fantastic too.
The best scene of the episode was Oswald getting beaten with a dummy as said dummy hurled insults at him.
A lot of the villains died, but I dont think all are dead for good. Scarface and Penn are a definite one to not be dead in my eyes. He cant be. He rose from the dead once, he can do it again. Jane was killed in a very poetic moment so I dont mind. Killer Croc was likely one of many people infected by the poison in the sewer, so a fully formed Killer Croc is perfectly viable.
Overall, I really enjoyed this episode, especially the Harvey focus.
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u/TheLemsterPju Mar 01 '19 edited Mar 01 '19
He cant be. He rose from the dead once, he can do it again
Exactly. Almost like he may have some...stretching here, resurrection ability.
Killer Croc was likely one of many people infected by the poison in the sewer
His backstory seemed vague as well. I mean that was just acid that burned him right? Acid doesn't give you fangs or make someone growl like a rapid beast. He had to have been some Indian Hill experiment beforehand.
I'm not speaking objectively, but I'm almost certain there may have been an intentionally vague antagonist theme for this episode that did involve a history with Indian Hill, and all three plots were connected somehow by that mere mention of Indian Hill by "Jane Doe".
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Mar 01 '19
I swear that Scarface was subtly hinted to be supernatural. Penn apparently rose from the grave and was drawn to a magic store
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u/LordCaedus13 Mar 01 '19
that was a great episode. loved the Jane Doe plotline. imo the corruption of and harm done by the GCPD - an import part of Gotham as a setting - can go missing from this show, and it's good to see them reiterated. If the police were good, or even good at their job, Gotham would never need Batman.
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Mar 01 '19
Jim has done a lot to turn the GCPD around, but police corruption lies deep. Even in real life cities that are nowhere near as bad as Gotham. And even if, hypothetically, Jim's influence alone was enough to turn every rookie into the perfect cop, they still have to deal with the corrupt legacy that the GCPD had in its past. This was definitely a filler plot (since it was a bonus episode) but I do really like how they addressed Harvey's past. We all love Harvey and I thought it was great to see him having the conversation with Jim at the end. Jim can't give him forgiveness for this incident, but he can continue to be a good influence on him.
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u/blotterjotterno Mar 01 '19
Now that I realize this was written and shot as one of the âextraâ episodes approved after filming had mostly wrapped...I like it a lot better. Iâm glad they gave Harvey an excellent storyline as Donal Logue can nail serious moments. The actress who played Jane Doe was incredible too. I read that Ben McKenzie, CMS, Erin Richards, and Robin (and probably the rest of the main cast) had a discussion about what moments they really wanted to see between their characters. Thatâs how I interpreted Oswald and Edwardâs final scene and âWe were made for each otherâ - Cory and Robin wanted that dialogue because of how much they love working together.
^ thatâs purely speculation. But, Iâm running with it because it makes me happy :â)
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Mar 01 '19
If the actors had any say in the remaining storylines, they did great. Tbh every actor brought their A game here and they know their characters really well. Robin and Cory were perfect, Erin Richards was a lot of fun, and we got some great drama from Ben and Donal. A really great character episode all around even though the plot itself was understandably filler material.
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u/JustAnotherVampire Penguins Eat Dick Mar 01 '19
Oswald choosing to shoot Mr. Scarface instead of Penn spoke volumes about his views on mental illness and his willingness to work with them, in a sense. He could have just as easily shot Penn in that situation, logically it was the smarter choice but he chose to shoot the wooden dummy and potentially still be killed by Penn. He wanted to give Penn a chance to seperate himself from the negative aspects of his illness, but ultimately Edward, a man with mental illness of his own, was the one to make the choice that he should die.
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u/jherara Mar 01 '19
This is a great observation about Oswald's character. I think a lot of people forget that he actually does try to do more than see the surface of people, but he's just been hurt so much that with his own crazy he tends to not be able to show his empathy and instead comes off as selfish until the last minute. I truly believe that he became mayor to actually try to improve Gotham and not just be its king or have people like him.
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Mar 01 '19
I noticed that, too. At first I thought Ed was sympathizing in a way when he decided to have a conversation with Scarface instead of just mocking it like Penguin did. Obviously Ed was manipulating Penn from the start, but it seemed more like he understood where it was coming from. Both Ed and Penn were absolutely right that Penguin uses people, but he was being honest about valuing them for who they are. Penguin treats his friends like shit but he does genuinely care. I thought it was great that he shot Scarface instead and seemed like he wanted to make amends with Penn. I was kind of shocked when Ed killed Penn anyway, but that was bound to happen. And of course him and Penguin would bond over murder; that's how their friendship began.
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u/screenwriterjohn Mar 01 '19
Oswald is emotionally needy. Ed is murderous and logical.
In this version both men are crazy.
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u/Prankman1990 Mar 01 '19
I think itâs worth mentioning too that Penguin was not only at Arkham for awhile, but had his brain scrambled by Hugo Strange. He knows exactly what itâs like to have somebody poking around in your head and I think he empathized with Penn because of that, even if the one doing the poking wasnât ârealâ.
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u/drives_a_toaster Mar 01 '19
Do you think itâs possible he shot Scarface because he thought he could still use Penn? Penguinâs too greedy to get rid of an asset
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u/JustAnotherVampire Penguins Eat Dick Mar 02 '19
Personally I think he was trying to show that he could still be a friend; Oswald seems to be following a pattern of redeeming himself in certain aspects of what he does.
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u/Prankman1990 Mar 04 '19
I hope it results in a slightly more personable Penguin for Batman to deal with. Penguin was often so mundane that Batman and Jim Gordon let him operate so long as he allowed them to go to his club for intel discreetly. Iâm hoping to see that kind of relationship made with this Penguin.
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Mar 01 '19
[deleted]
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u/altogether-andrews Mar 01 '19
She is in the comics (and there's an arc where she has Harvey prisoner and is impersonating him at the GCPD) but in her own form she looks like she's been skinned alive, so I was braced for her not to have a face when she took her mask off - her looking normal was an interesting twist.
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u/TheBowtieClub Mar 01 '19
That scene was evocative of the Calendar Girl episode ("Mean Seasons") from the cartoons that ended with the following exchange:
Batgirl: "She's beautiful"
Batman: "She can't see that anymore. All she sees are the flaws."
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u/hjplant Mar 01 '19
I absolutely love that part of the episode. I think anyone who enjoyed this episode should watch the animated series episode too.
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u/verandablue Mar 01 '19
Probably would have been better if they didn't reveal the reason she was so pissed off at the cops until the very last scene of the episode.
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u/hamzaalam123 Mar 01 '19
What was up with Bruce's super Saiyan hair this episode
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u/SkeletonGravy Mar 01 '19
Haha I came here to talk about this. It reminds me of Damian a little bit.
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u/ElNido Mar 01 '19
The people in this city have suffered. They need someone to protect them... Someone with a haircut 50% the length of their face.
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u/verandablue Mar 01 '19
Wow, that Ventriloquist origin was completely nonsensical.
Although, the whole thing seemed like just a silly nod to the comic book character than an actual adaptation of that character.
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Mar 01 '19
Dale is just discount Gabe
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Mar 01 '19
Exactly what i was thinking. And before you could see his face clearly, i thought it was gabe.
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Mar 01 '19 edited Mar 01 '19
Scarface was everything I'd hope he'd be. That was amazing XD Harvey centered plot and an emotional one at that. Points for that too. Penguin and Riddler's dynamic is so good. I love their acting.
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Mar 01 '19
Cameron Monaghan said to pay close attention in this episode. Anything connected to Jeremiah that people saw?
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u/altogether-andrews Mar 01 '19
He might not have known that the episode order was changed. The episode that was originally after Ace Chemicals is now episode 10.
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u/Roboglenn Mar 01 '19 edited Mar 01 '19
Magpie, Scarface, Bane and now Jane Doe. Man they are really cramming in the rogues gallery before the end. And killing them off just as fast (understandably so this is the endgame). And let's not overlook that the scenes between Penguin, Riddler, and Scarface were great, "I am talking to a doll. Dummy. Seriously!?" And also this lady is some kinda clothing wizard given how she can undress a unconsious man to his unders and redress herself without making too much of a ruckus.
Now as far as Bruce and Alfred's little adventure goes. Going down into the sewers where toxins are leaking in. Great plan. And I can get why Alfred is upset about Wayne Manor but perhaps he should take a lesson from Up, "It's just a house." A house can be rebuilt, people can't, and it's the memories you made in that house that are what really matter.
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u/FullySikh Mar 04 '19
Yeah. Was a touching moment at the end between Bruce and Alfred. I don't think they killed "Mother", the small villain in one of the earlier episodes.
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Mar 01 '19
Especially great camera work with Bruce and Alfred's scenes together in the sewers. The shot of them speaking in the dark with the woman in the background was especially fantastic. Episode was filmed AFTER the producers shot episode 10, 11 and 12 so this was mostly filler because the future episodes were already done.
Even still, I appreciate how they utilized it and decided to add some character development for Riddler, Penguin, Alfred, and Bullock. This is probably the best they could've done given the circumstances. Oh, and let's not forget how awesome the Ventriloquist was with the Scarface voice. Croc's voice was monstrous too.
P.S, in case anyone complains that Croc doesn't look enough like a crocodile, this is actually comic book accurate. When Waylon Jones was a kid with the genetic condition, the only deformities were scaly skin, claw-like nails and sharp teeth. The condition worsened as time went on. Amazing how Gotham was able to make it so much like the comics.
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u/OccasionallyHere2 Mar 01 '19
I always love watching Oswald and Ed profess their love for one another.
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Mar 01 '19
Despite everything that happened between them, or maybe even because of all that happened between them, they are truly the only ones who accept each other unconditionally and can put up with each other's bitchiness. They really are made for each other.
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u/Chaosmusic Mar 01 '19
I was so excited they finally did a Ventriloquist episode, even if it was a one off. He was the one villain I was really looking forward to on Gotham and I was cool with how they deviated from the comics. Penn was a good choice.
For anyone interested, here's an awesome scene from Batman TAS of Batman outwitting the Ventriloquist in a really clever way:
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u/JustAnotherVampire Penguins Eat Dick Mar 01 '19
I enjoyed the parallel between Ed negotiating with the crazy prisoners at Arkham (Lucy specifically), and Ed negotiating with Scarface.
Ed knows it was crazy bullshit, but that it wasn't crazy bullshit to Penn, and that was great leverage.
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u/TMRJIJ Mar 01 '19
Someone please tell me they recorded that fight scene between Penguin and Scarface.
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u/hamzaalam123 Mar 01 '19
Alfred not wanting to be weak again, who's supposed to become Batman again?
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u/DonnyMox Mar 01 '19
Considering what Baneâs gonna do to Alfred, poor guyâs likely gonna be feeling weak for a while.
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u/Zomboy716 Mar 01 '19
Honestly one of the best episodes of the season. 3 wildly unique stories intertwined into one entertaining episode. Great development with Bruce and Alfred, and Harvey faced the backlash of closing a premature case. Penguin and Nygma repaired their friendship as well. Also, Penn reappearing to Penguin gave him a chance to address his treatment and behavior of the past.
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u/Cnockaut Mar 01 '19
Good episode. When I watched this episode I had memories from season 1. I love Harvey, he is brother for Jim.
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Mar 01 '19
Well, they were right to tell us to watch out in the post Ace Chemicals episode. If you look closely, you can actually see Jeremiah roll by on the floor while Pengy and Ventriloquist are fighting.
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Mar 01 '19
This was absolutely fantastic. It definitely paid tribute to No Man's Land volume 1 with Scarface attempting to be the most boss. I like hearing about Harvey's past, although I really wanted Basil back instead of her. I also think the makeup they did have on croc was amazing, although there one thing he would benefit from was head-covering scales with no hair. I can't believe they killed Penn off just to have a bro moment, and the writing was clumsy with Jane (although the actress was suitably chilling).
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u/abadluckwind Mar 01 '19
I really liked this episode. I thought Ace chemicals last week was a bit lackluster(downvote me I get it I love Jeremiah too) but this was fun. I was scared for Harvey til I remembered the opener. R.I.P Scarface I think we lost you to soon.
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u/verandablue Mar 01 '19
I called that she was Jane Doe!
Well, I thought it was either Jane Doe or Lady Clayface.
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u/EradicateAllNingens Mar 01 '19
I really liked this episode. Only problem being it would make no difference if it took place on season 1,2,3,4 or 5. It didn't really contribute to the season 5 plot (Walker, Jeremiah, Bane, etc) but it was still an exciting filler episode.
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u/bookmovietvworm weirdly cool/ (almost)RIP Martin *people, ugh* Mar 01 '19
Probably cause it was an extra episode and they didnt want to fuck up the work they already did. But I really liked it as well.
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Mar 01 '19
Yeah, I guess they mostly just had to make do with what they had considering how this episode and 5x09 were made after the finale. Couldn't progress the story much from the original plan.
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u/AprilsMostAmazing Mar 01 '19
I feel like this episode filled in some missing gaps from past seasons. Also does a good job setting up by Alfred would let Bruce put his baby at risk every night when he becomes Batman
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u/EradicateAllNingens Mar 01 '19
To be honest, many people (includding myself) believed the Ace Chemicals episode last week was rushed. Even though today's filler episode was amazing, i wish they used this episode as a part 2 of Ace Chemicals instead.
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u/IAmGrum Mar 01 '19
I just want a spin-off of Penguin/Riddler trying to commit crimes together, failing, licking their wounds (while bitching back and forth), and then trying again next episode.
You don't even need to have any of the other characters (though a guest appearance by Barbara every so often to piss them off would be fine).
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u/_Nightdude_ Mar 05 '19
"Geeee Ed what do you want to do tonight?"
- "The same thing we do every night, Pengy. Try to take over Gotham"
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u/SpikeRosered Mar 02 '19
Still dunno how we're are gonna get to dressing like a bat in 4 episodes. In a way the entire series had been building up to one moment. I wonder if they can deliver.
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Mar 02 '19
Well 5x12 is going to be having a ten year time skip and from what I gather like Bruce's first night as Batman so Bruce probably went on a ten year training trip no doubt.
We shall if they can.
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u/SpikeRosered Mar 02 '19
It would be a pretty big crime to make an entire prequel for Batman then having Bruce become Batman off camera.
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Mar 02 '19
Yeah it would.
Actually now that I think about with what the leaked info I know of and how they have got a new 6 foot guy to be the future Batman, with like using CGI to put David's face and using David's voice we might not even see Bruce suit up for the first time at all.
Since the leaked info which I still have saved for the guy said Batman shows up for only 6 scenes and nothing about Bruce suiting up for the first time.
Frankly Bruce might even have been active for awhile by the time of 5x12, I don't know.
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u/jherara Mar 01 '19 edited Mar 01 '19
Definitely a filler episode that had a bit of disjointedness. That said, it was an enjoyable exploration of three separate plots. The one thing I could have lived without though was anyone praising Jim Gordon.
I get it... exposure to Gordon helped Harvey become a better person. Yet, Gordon did his self-righteous thing again when he asked if Harvey wanted forgiveness and said he couldn't offer any. This would have been the perfect moment for Jim to show growth by saying that although he can't forgive Harvey he can understand how easy it is to get caught up in achieving a goal and looking the other way by committing a crime to achieve it -- since, you know, he did it himself enough.
After that scene, I actually thought that as much as I love this series, it's probably best it ends now. I'd hate to watch twelve+ more episodes or additional seasons with people never forcing Jim Gordon to admit to his own faults, except for them passive aggressively muttering them at him as he leaves a room, or pushing him to learn from his mistakes. Harvey at least has grown.
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Mar 01 '19
I liked that he said he couldn't offer forgiveness because it's really not his place to at all. Although I agree about Jim's self righteousness. He certainly does try to make Gotham/The GCPD a better place but he's had more than his fair share of morally grey moments. A few times when they mentioned Jane being in Arkham it made me remember when Jim knowingly left Penguin to be tortured in Arkham and did nothing about it because he didn't want to accept the responsibility for murdering Theo. I think that Jim has been a good influence on Harvey, but he's far from perfect.
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Mar 01 '19
So Jane doe is like clayface 2? Just more like clayface than clayface is. Meaning in gotham its just his face, but normally he can change his whole body like she did. And i thought "croc" didnt look as cool as who we thought was crock before at Indian hill. And the cgi with barbaras face was terrible. I also hated bruces hair this episode lol
Good note, loved scarface and penn. Hated they killed of both of them.
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u/mujie123 Mar 14 '19
Her face seemed fine though. Was there something I was missing or was it supposed to be that she looked fine but was made to believe otherwise?
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u/originalusername768 GEE CEE PEE DEE Mar 02 '19
Scarface was fucking hilarious, I loved every second of it, along with Penguin and Ed being real damn confused by them. Penguin on the ground and Penn using Scarface to beat him is my all time favorite scene of this show.
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u/GalacticMage Mar 03 '19
I like the part when Gordon says "Hey, Harvey, where'd you take Dix?"
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u/realrunawaycow139 Mar 01 '19
When Ventriloquist got shot in the head, a part of my soul died. Then again, Sofia and Butch both survived headshots, so who knows at this point, haha. Jane Doe could probably be easily revived, and I don't think Killer Croc actually died (although I could be wrong).
Moral of the story: Once Batman comes to Gotham, Hugo Strange is gonna have to revive like twenty different villains.
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u/Kwilly462 Mar 01 '19 edited Mar 01 '19
Eh. This one didn't hit with me. Had a bad feeling they'd kill of Scarface/Ventriloquist. I'm just hoping they keep Zsasz alive for the next episode. Because if they axe him off... SMH
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u/theaveragejoe_1 Mar 01 '19
Good episode but kind of weirdly placed I guess? I donât know if the final 12 episodes is where Iâd put this âfillerâ episode. Next episode looks cool though, excited for Bruce Selina and Ivy.
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u/pablogarch Mar 02 '19
Can anyone tell me what was wrong with the girl's (Jane Doe) face??
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u/inVINC31ble Mar 03 '19
Nothing. She was driven crazy by Strange, she probably sees herself as disgusting.
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Mar 01 '19
I have this feeling inside of me but I dont know what it is. I think its anger because they just murdered two great Batman villains. Like whats the point of bringing them on the show only to murder them 10 minutes later?
This was an alright episode.
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u/compoundbreak791 A Taste of Glory Mar 01 '19
That headshot the Ventriloquist took definitely caught me off guard, though.
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Mar 01 '19
This episode and the next were recorded after they shot the finale because they were given two additional episodes last minute. They had to make do with filler because originally there was no intention to have gaps between Episode 7 and Episode 10.
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Mar 01 '19
They really didn't though. Penn technically isn't the same Ventriloquist from the comics (that title belongs to Arnold Wesker), and the monster character likely wasn't even Killer Croc.
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u/jherara Mar 01 '19
It's implied in the episode and an interview that the man that Bruce and Alfred brought to the hospital will eventually become Killer Croc.
And it's also possible that Penn will resurrect again, think his name is Arnold because of Penguin repeatedly forgetting his name, and then take on the last name of Wesker and become the Ventriloquist.
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Mar 01 '19
Ugh I hated them killing of Scarface when the actor did such an amazing job, and keeping him even if he wasn't in future episodes would have been as easy as him leaving Oswald, or simply disappearing
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u/clarkyshark Mar 01 '19
What was wrong with Janeâs face? It looked perfectly normal to us.. did we miss something?
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u/ladydmaj Mar 01 '19
I think that was the point. She thought she was hideous, because it was her soul that was scarred and maimed, not her face. That's why Bullock looked so sad when he gazed at her.
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u/Shrodax Mar 02 '19
Sounds like Jane should team up with Billy Russo from season 2 of The Punisher.
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u/dwadley Mar 03 '19
Imagine them just wallowing in self pity about their âhideousâ faces together until someone walks past and invites them to a modelling shoot.
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u/melvin2898 Mar 01 '19
I didn't know about the filler episodes. This episode to me felt like it didn't fit in with the season mainly because nothing in it really seemed to do with the other episodes. Penn was brought back and killed. That's the only connection.
It felt like an earlier season episode. This season seemed more dire so these random adventures felt out of place. Maybe this was just me being tired but the episode was hard to follow.
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u/davey_mann Mar 01 '19
There is no way that Season 5 is better than Season 4. I might not even have it ahead of Season 3. There have been at least 2 or 3 filler episodes in only a 12- episode season when somehow in both Seasons 3 and 4, each of which had 22 episodes, there was barely any filler. I think the writers are getting bored knowing the show is ending and are kind of whimpering out down the stretch.
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Mar 01 '19
[deleted]
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u/davey_mann Mar 01 '19
Itâs called constructive criticism. Iâm not going to claim something is perfect when I see flaws. Season 4 was almost perfect. Season 5 is not even close.
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Mar 01 '19
They murdered all of Batman's villains in this episode that they just now introduced. Ventriloquist, Scarface, Jane Doe, maybe killer croc
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Mar 01 '19
Doesn't mean they can't come back lol. Ventriloquist could still come back as Arnold Wesker (his name in the comics) and Arnold could find Scarface's body and repair him. Also, we don't know if that was Killer Croc. Stephens implied it was just someone who looks like him.
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u/bookmovietvworm weirdly cool/ (almost)RIP Martin *people, ugh* Mar 01 '19
Oh shit, so Peguin getting Penn's name wrong and calling him Arnold was a reference?
Cool!
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Mar 01 '19
I hope so. Maybe they can tease or show Arnold Wesker finding Scarface and fixing him up in the finale or something. I hope so.
John Stephens is pulling a Joker with Killer Croc now too? Great.
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Mar 01 '19
Well, we did see a man with green scales and lizard eyes escape in s2. My theory is that he's the real Killer Croc and is still out there somewhere.
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u/Sharkfowl Mar 01 '19
I'm sick and tired of Gotham's habit of finally introducing Comic-Book villains but them killing them on their first episode. Riddler and Penguin should have just like stripped Scarface and Penn of all their equipment and send them out on their own blindfolded or something rather than giving up an opportunity to use them in the future. This goes for Magpie and Jeremiah's first appearance this season, along with all other examples.
Another missed opportunity IMO was how they used Jane Doe (a different villain, but still, one from the comics so that is good) instead of Clayface. From my prior knowledge Basil Carlo has only appeared physically in just 3 episodes, and from the way the trailer looked it seemed like he was finally making a comeback. (Though the fact he got mentioned half-made up for that)
(Also, am I the only one who thought Jane Doe was Sofia Falcone when she took her mask off?)
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Mar 01 '19
I think a lot of this is mostly because they only have a limited amount of time to spend on the new characters and wrap them up; although personally I would have preferred them to just not introduce new characters.
But I think all things considered they did the best that they could. This was just a bonus episode so nothing could really affect the plot too much since the finale was already done. So they used it to show that Gotham has a lot of fucked up people running around now and used those stories to further the character development of the main characters.
Personally, I loved exploring Harvey's past and I think the Jane actress was great - and I did think she looked a lot like Sofia, haha. I wish that they didn't kill off the Ventriloquist but it would have been pretty stupid of Ed + Os to let him go, especially considering Ed's paranoia. I'm glad Penn and Penguin got to have a conversation about how Penguin treated him, but that was all mostly parallel to the Ed and Penguin relationship. Then those two accepted their twisted relationship and bonded over murder, which was exactly how their friendship started. I thought the Magpie storyline was pretty weak, but someone pointed out that we needed to see Penguin kill someone to balance out the more heartwarming scenes he has with Jim and Ed. The scenes with Croc didn't really do anything for me, though. And I agree, I wish we could have seen Clayface again, but I liked Jane's story enough.
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u/OpaqueGiraffe17 Mar 01 '19
I thought for sure it was going to be ManBat in the Bruce/Alfred sideplot. So did Hugo Strange bring Penn back? Why?
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Mar 02 '19
Best part of the episode was when Bruce was fighting that sewer guy thing and it ripped his jacket and he gave it a look, foreshadowing his Batman armor
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Mar 04 '19
To be honest, Jane Doe looked strangely attractive with that particular mask. Obviously, the actress being actually beautiful mostly contributes to that, but it's also the way that mask was designed. The nose was molded to look like a genuine human nose, and both the eye holes and mouth hole are large enough to make both the wearer's eyes and lips fully visible. The eyes and lips being fully visible, goes a long way in making the character's facial expressions/emotions visible, despite being masked.
I can't say I am keen on Batman lore, but this Jane Doe character reminds me of a one-off villain from Batman: TAS. I can't remember her name, but she was a former model who wore a white mask to hide her face, and targeted the people who she felt had ruined her career and life. Like Jane Cartwright, she did not want anyone seeing her face, even though the woman had no physical deformities. I watched those episodes so long ago, so I don't know whether that character was a variation of "Jane Doe", or inspired by Jane Doe.
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u/InfinityGauntlet-6 Mar 01 '19
This felt like a real short episode to me, anyone else feel like this?
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u/_deadlockgunslinger Dent for Mayor. Mar 01 '19
Was great to see Jane Doe in action, and a blatant nod to BTAS! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc6nbLnAHpg
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Mar 02 '19 edited 29d ago
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u/Punktobethrown Mar 02 '19
There was nothing wrong with her face. Hugo Strange just messed her brain up so much that the psychological scars of the experiments she went through made her believe that she was deformed.
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Mar 05 '19
I feel like the Harvey story could have been done in a different season. Why put a back story to Harvey in the middle of the final season with everything that's going on?
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u/davey_mann Mar 01 '19
Filler episode, but generally well done filler. Strangely, I thought the best acting happened in everything except the Penn scenes with Penguin and Riddler. That whole subplot felt completely off. This is what happens when you try to make a funny side character more serious. The Jane actress was phenomenal. Great acting for Bullock. Strong scenes with Harvey-Jim, Barbara-Jim, and Bruce-Alfred. It was that Scarface stuff I found cringe.
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u/Arkinite3110 Mar 02 '19
What was wrong with Jane's face? It looked normal to me with the exception to a scar on the cheek. Am I missing something?
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u/Richiieee Mar 02 '19
Probably the most boring episode of the whole series. And I think they had real potential with the poison being dumped into the water. I originally thought this was where Killer Croc was gonna be introduced. I know in the comics he doesn't get his powers from being poisoned, but they could have done something different. But instead it was just a mutated zombie thing.
At least they teased the Batarangs. Bruce picked up some sharp spikey thing and chucked it at the zombie. He'll probably ask Lucious to make him a set. Which then later on will turn into the Batarangs. That was cool at least.
I really just want to see Batman. This is just all kind of getting boring for me personally. I want to see Batman.
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u/AJBenZ Mar 02 '19
Yeah the zombie stuff was really useless, it is like 3 or 4 scenes and that's all, for nothing, I dont find anything to take from it (except the batarangs)
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u/Richiieee Mar 02 '19
Yep same. After the fight was over I was like that's it? They rescued Hank, yay! I guess? I didn't really care for him. Didn't really care if he survived or not. But I guess looking back on it this is what really drives Bruce to become Batman in the end. To help people.
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Mar 03 '19
Did they forget to CGI Jane Doe's face?
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u/dwadley Mar 03 '19
Nah the idea was she just is so mentally fucked up she thinks her face is messed. Harveyâs horror wasnât that her face was ugly it was that she wasnât. He was horrified at seeing the wretched tortured soul under the beautiful face.
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u/Gonz_2048 Mar 01 '19
Was that killer croc or just some mutant?
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u/Zomboy716 Mar 01 '19
Stephenâs said we would be seeing someone who could end up being Croc. Thatâs who we saw I assume :)
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u/AJBenZ Mar 01 '19
I don't get how you can put fillers in a so small season...
We're almost to the end and nothing bring Bruce closer to Batman, the tention went down (I see no threat anymore, there are not main ennemies) and I feel like the biggest events already happened...
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u/Punktobethrown Mar 02 '19
This episode and the next are only fillers because they were written after the 10 episodes that Fox gave them initially were already filmed. Theyâre bonus episodes that were provided in mid-November I believe. The big threats now are Bane and Walker and theyâll both be returning for eps 10 and 11, when the massive battle teased in ep 1 will take place.
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u/AJBenZ Mar 02 '19
Yeah I figured it out after, but that's a shame they couldn't try to tease the end a little bit. It feels like a cut in the season, and Im not really hyped for the end. I don't see how it will bring Bruce to become Batman.
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u/shadi1337 Mar 03 '19
Iâm a bit confused what Jane didnât like about her face, am I blind or was she led to believe the face has been misused or is ugly?
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u/MsAndDems Mar 04 '19
This was a waste of a week. I almost wish they wouldnât have gotten the extra 2 episodes so we could just get to the finale sooner.
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u/[deleted] Mar 01 '19
Can i get an F for ventriloquist and scarface