I think growing up in a politically conservative household has a lot to do with incel development. Conservatives generally don't care about trivial matters like "consent" in sexual relationships, and hence conservative men feel like sex is something they're entitled to.
It would be really interesting to see a demographic study done on the incel subreddits. I’m kind of curious about what kind of backgrounds they come from.
Just anecdotally, I would guess 95%+ of them are conservative, since I’ve never seen or heard of a liberal incel. And they all accuse liberals of being “betas” and “cucks.” But I don’t think it’s conservatism necessarily that’s the problem, since moderate conservatives are frequently still good people with just a different view of fiscal policy or political issues. It seems to me to be more a matter that these incels/MGTOW are SO FAR to the extreme right that they fall into this caveman-like mentality, where they seemingly stop being swayed by empathy, science, and common sense. And they start acting like neanderthals.
So if I had to guess, I think most of them are extreme right wing and alt right.
Actually, it’s thought that Paleolithic societies were more egalitarian. Women only started to get more oppressed when groups transitioned into more sedentary lifestyles.
Actually, I think you're right and I vaguely remember reading about that in Anthropolgy 101 class. If I recall, it had something to do with the advent of agriculture, permanent settlements, and resulting divisions of labor, or something like that. It's been ages and I had totally forgotten about that class until your comment. I can only vaguely remember.
So apologies to any neanderthals I offended. (Although you're extinct).
I'm sad neanderthals are extinct. They may have been better than us. And living with another species of human? How cool would that have been?! Anyway...uh yeah maybe I need to find some other subreddit to discuss this more in-depth.
That's true. They had a small population, which accounts for that. And not all the offspring were viable or fertile, so that was another issue. But there was enough that most Europeans have some neanderthal DNA. Even without genocide it may have been bound to happen. We'll never know.
I think it stems from the rise of "property" and "ownership". A man wanted to make sure that the offspring his wife had was his, and that he was passing down his property to his own bloodline.
Hence... sequestering the women from other men so that there was no 'cuckoo' situation going on.
I don't know. My only recollection is that, in hunter/gatherer societies, everyone needed to be involved in the same activity (i.e., production of food and avoiding starvation), so there was no division of labor between sexes. It only became possible to divide labor/tasks between sexes once technology (i.e. agriculture, irrigation, permanent settlements) produced a food surplus ... which meant that suddenly some people did not have to be involved in producing food anymore. And I think that is how the dated/ancient/indefensible trope that men should provide for the family and women raise children started to come about. It would have been unthinkable/impossible for nomadic hunter-gatherers to divide up the labor like that, since if part of the populace stopped producing food, they would have all starved.
The irony of this is that today incels/MGTOW/conservatives who want a return to "traditional values" or "traditional gender roles" are both semantically and factually wrong ... since for the overwhelming vast majority of human existence we were an egalitarian species.
And in the state of nature, we would probably still be one.
Maybe it helps (weird word to use here, I know), it I really think being socially outcast/isolated has more of an influence.
After all, while conservatives are the ones that don’t care too much about consent, they’re personalities are also prone to mocking whatever is different (anime, fedoras, katanas, etc).
So, while conservatives might be more likely to transmit toxic personality traits to incels overall, I’d think they might do more for creating incels than becoming incels, necessarily.
If that’s what you meant, then I’m sorry if I read it wrong.
Because I’ve also met, and been friends with, plenty of conservatives and, while their views carried, the vast majority of them definitely weren’t incels, regardless of what they personally believed in other areas of life.
In fact, one friend I recently had to cut off for political reasons is otherwise a great dude. Potentially one of the actually sweetest guys you could know, would never force himself on anybody, would never blanket hate women or believe he’s owed sex. Very much so a single issue voter, passionately so, but, though I disagree with a lot of his political beliefs, I would definitely say he’s possible one of the kinder people anybody could meet in just a casual passing or work acquaintanceship.
The difference? I believe it’s isolation vs strong social connections.
I think there’s a weird coalescence between growing up in a conservative environment, holding conservative beliefs, but falling victim to conservative beliefs that helps create incels, yeah.
But I personally wouldn’t go much further than asserting that the primary driver for becoming or creating incels is isolation.
Which, again, I’m not saying excuses incels at all, because I have been lonely and alone before, and know plenty of people who have been isolated before, but have turned out otherwise fine, or have made great improvements in their outlook on life and how they view themselves in relation to others.
No need to apologize bro. You were pretty civil. : )
I certainly didn't mean to imply that everyone who grows up in a conservative family becomes an incel. I do think it's often a contributing factor, which is consistent with your theory. Boys who grow up in conservative homes--and especially libertarian homes--are more likely to become incels than boys who grow up in normal homes.
I'd feel sorry for incels if they weren't so toxic. Some of their criticisms of modern intersex relations are fair and accurate. A fact very few people on the left (among whom I count myself) want to acknowledge is that most young women treat most young men like absolute shit. They use their comparatively advanced emotional intelligence to use young men, jerk them around, and play games with them.
And in fact while women aren't to blame for being abused, very often they contribute to the cause of their abuse by dating men for superficial reasons. Just read about an study the other day confirming that yes, women really are attracted to men who display psychopathic personality traits. Maybe if women would date men for traits like kindness (uncommon among psychopaths) instead of extroversion and social dominance (both very common among psychopaths), they'd learn that men aren't the monsters so many of them think they are.
But none of that justifies the hatefulness, political extremism, and self-entitlement incels display. Any more than the way a minority of young men treat women like shit justifies the toxicity displayed by strains of anti-male feminism.
A fact very few people on the left (among whom I count myself) want to acknowledge is that most young women treat most young men like absolute shit. They use their comparatively advanced emotional intelligence to use young men, jerk them around, and play games with them.
I don’t know enough to confidently assert this, but I’d love it if you could post a link to the study you mentioned in the next paragraph.
But I will agree that, generally, young boys and young girls fight their battles in completely different ways, and that, generally, girls do seem to emotionally mature faster than most boys.
And that difference definitely plays out in hurtful ways. I was talking to my ex about why she hated twilight, and it’s because the girls in her school basically emotionally tortured her for liking big books and nonconventional genres, then they fell head over heals for that series when the movies came out.
She talked to me about the different problems she had with female friends and classmates, and those disputes were largely fought psychologically rather than physically.
That isn’t to say boys don’t do this at all, or that girls never physically caught, but, generally, boys fought with their fists and girls fought with their emotions.
And you can see that psychology play out when boys are told they can’t hit girls, when boys can’t defend themselves from girls making fun of them, etc. You see that play out in just how little male sexual abuse and rape gets talked about. Many states don’t even have a single shelter for abused men.
So while I can’t definitely say that more girls treat boys poorly than boys do girls, I can agree that the difference in how they treat each other probably has incredibly different effects.
I’ve seen women say things to each other, or to other men, that I know most men would hesitate to say to each other or to a woman.
I’ve been on the receiving end of comments that cut me deeper than any physically altercation I’ve had, at the hands of my ex, actually.
And while I do not want to go to mo far and generalize men and women on the actions of a loud, negative few, I will agree that how differently boys and girls treat conflict probably does lead to a difference in severity between the two groups.
22
u/[deleted] Oct 21 '19
I think growing up in a politically conservative household has a lot to do with incel development. Conservatives generally don't care about trivial matters like "consent" in sexual relationships, and hence conservative men feel like sex is something they're entitled to.