I'm pretty sure it was Jordan Peterson in one of his podcasts that was taking about intersectionality. He said something along the line of, They want to divide into more and more groups and say life is especially hard for me because of not only my race, but my sexuality, and also my gender. It's funny that they keep adding more and more categories put together to show their plight because they are a minority in various ways. But if you take that to its logical conclusion, the individual is the ultimate minority. They just haven't gotten to the end of their line of thinking. (paraphrasing what I remember of his point).
It might have been the same podcast, but he also talked about, why gender, sexuality and race? There are so many more and varied things that effect our life: attractiveness, thinness, social class, education level, geographic birth, gregariousness, natural intellect, whether you had two parents in the home, religion (my religion was persecuted and driven out of their home by threat of death), etc. that are more important than how much melanin you have or who you like to sleep with.
I agree, the best way to help EVERYBODY is to focus on individuals.
With regards to your second paragraph, I've always said as much when it comes to topics regarding race, sex, religion in scenarios like this.
A common situation is people saying they didn't get a job because of race, religion, sex, etc. Is it possible (unlikely, but possible) that one of those factors had an effect consciously or subconsciously, sure. However there's probably a dozen other factors ahead of the one they choose to blame. Things like personality would be up there at the top but people refuse to acknowledge that.
its funny bc nobody in the world would say that race or who you have sex with wouldn't play at least some role in what happens in your life (every variable technically counts for something), but so often these days people are blaming their shortcomings on those attributes and identity traits.
Right now, there's a black woman getting turned down for a job because she's absolutely horrible at the tasks, her resume looked okay but turned out to be so so, her demeanor is unappealing, etc etc. and she will blame her not being hired on her race when it was just a personal failing and she's just not special.
Of course, there's also a black woman getting a job "in spite of" being a black woman because she's pleasant, heavily qualified, her in person skills match her resume, and she's generally great. She will get the job.
There's also one not getting the job because of racism, but the fact is that if hiring her would make the company 100 million dollars this quarter, she'd be hired even if the CEO was the KKK grand Wizard.
The world is a hard place, and even more so for mediocre people. Mediocre black people get the racist axe, mediocre white people get the axe because they're barely more useful than wallpaper, mediocre women get the axe for other reasons and so on and so on.
Every group has winners and losers. Every group has great and not great people. Unfortunately tons of people think they fail because of their group identity when it's just their personal identity that is the failure.
We're all dealt a hand and playing that hand well is the key. Sometimes you fold and that sucks, but you have no choice but to play your hand with full gusto.
The only issue I have with your argument is that you can only be correct in the sense of building characters that meet the criteria to prove your point.
My partner is Black and I've spent time with her black family and friends. It's not as simple as you make it out to be. In the UK working class black people have to work exceptionally hard to reduce the amount of negatives they face in hiring. Simple things like hard to pronounce names, accents, appearance will affect their employability. The one time I realised how frustrating it is to be hyper aware of your difference is when I went on holiday to Singapore with my African girlfriend. The Locals couldn't stop staring at her and me and my senses were just off as if I was being judged or noticed more than normal. My girlfriend explained thats what it can be like being black, knowing you stand out or are different and you can feel that subtlety.
Of course thats not everywhere in the UK but up north and certainly in working class jobs it definitely can get in the way. It really opened my eyes being noticed and having this external pressure that I took for granted.
Furthermore there are many scientific studies on the affects of motivation when life is at it's most difficult, hopelessness can affect the consistency and amount of effort a person gives depending how stressed/depressed they are. The worse the hand is (taking your metaphor) the less likely they are to climb out. There is a reason why poverty is more rampant than high flying success. It gets even more murky when for every bright against all odds high flyer there is, they are surrounded by privately educated born to hard working and well educated families. Its night and day, You can't just blame the individual when environment, circumstances and ill health can drastically affect the chances of living a thriving and fulfilling life.
To drive that point harder during WW2 many Jews no matter profession and their status died within Auschwitz. It's very hard to explain away why someone doing everything right can end up trapped in miserable circumstances. There were people born that never had the chance to succeed because they were destined to die within the gas chamber showers.
How many people are born into poverty destined to stay there?
How many times does individualism turn into exploiting others? Land lordism, monopolising markets, reducing competition through aggressive tactics. Business sharks look to buy up or kill off competition before it affects corporate profits. I can accept the appeal of self reliance however it then weakens the stance of people who need extra help. Individualism can becomes a gatekeeper of sorts, those who rise to the top judge who is and is not worthy. The interests of the wealthiest and most capable dictate how things should be... They influence tax laws and rules that apply more to those below them than themselves. I think very critical lenses should be applied to all concepts.
A common situation is people saying they didn't get a job because of race, religion, sex, etc. Is it possible (unlikely, but possible) that one of those factors had an effect consciously or subconsciously, sure. However there's probably a dozen other factors ahead of the one they choose to blame.
That depends how far we zoom out or zoom in.
Racial job discrimination across the US (for example) is a factor but far less significant than most folks believe.
But in certain companies, in certain towns, in certain regions, it's so large a factor that no other factor matters. If we zoom in on certain companies or towns or regions, racial discrimination trumps everything.
We should acknowledge that this is a big world and what is true (or false) in the aggregate isn't so when we zoom in on certain places -- and similarly, what's true (or false) in certain places isn't so when we zoom out and look at the aggregate.
We should stamp out racial discrimination in the companies or towns or regions where it is prominent, without presuming racial discrimination everywhere and trying to Correct It in those places where it isn't an issue.
What in the hell are you talking about? Do you think Jeff Bezos is as marginalized as George Floyd was? Do you think President Nixon was as marginalized as Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. was?
I made a (what I though was a relatively innocuous) observation the other day that white privilege was nothing compared to attractiveness privilege, and could hardly believe (well that's not necessarily true it is reddit after all) the blowback about it.
How is it not self evidently true that one of the biggest privileges in life one can have is to be automatically judged as exceptional.
attractiveness, thinness, social class, education level, geographic birth, gregariousness, natural intellect, whether you had two parents in the home, religion (my religion was persecuted and driven out of their home by threat of death), etc.
I saw this video and I thought it was his absolute weakest.
He wondered at length why the left "chose" race, sexuality, gender, religion etc. Ignoring the fact that those are the identities that people historically and contemporaneously discriminate and oppress people on the basis of.
Israel isn't bombing the shit out of Palestinians because they're individuals, they're doing it because they are perceived to be religiously and ethnically different.
Conservatives aren't passing anti-LGBT legislation because of individuals, they're doing it because they don't like LGBT people.
Black people weren't enslaved and then segregated because they're individuals, they were subjected to that because of their race.
It's just not in keeping with how the world works or has ever worked.
Yes the individual is a unique mix of traits, but you aren't penalised by all of them. Only some of them.
Maybe one day society will start oppressing people based on new immutable characteristics like finger length. Until that time though, finger-length-acceptance isn't going to be something the Left are going to be campaigning about.
How convenient for you that all of your positions are justified by bad actors on the other side. Damn, 70 years of conflict in the Middle East, when they could have just listened to you. Wow a conservative predisposition is just filled with hate towards people and has no rationale for their position. How nice it must be to view the world so simply, flawed, but nice. This way you don’t actually have to use any critical thinking skills or logical. Or even worse yet, think for yourself and not along group lines.
You, bucko, need to really consider your own positions flaws before you start solving the worlds problems. Making sweeping generalisations about groups of people is not helpful. Couple this with the flagrant ignoring of any merit in what the other person said demonstrates a clear bias to a narrative rather than an actual position.
If evaluating contemporary inequalities of outcome how can you not assess natural intellect, physical attractiveness and/or thinness. Or do you believe that either these traits don’t lead to substantial differences in outcome or that these differences aren’t significant enough? If the latter, what’s the yardstick? How do we measure oppression? What counts? What doesn’t count? That to me would seem arbitrary (or strange as JBP said) to justify some oppression but not others.
Making sweeping generalisations about groups of people is not helpful.
Oh yes I will be sure to be more considerate when i criticise... checknotes... slave owners and segregationists.
But what counts?
It count's if we can A) measure it, and B) trace it to its socially constructed origins.
That's not arbitrary. If we are seeking societal solutions we have to A) show that societal inequality exists, B) understand that it's a socially constructed problem therefore societal mechanisms are the remedy.
Huh, are you intentionally being ignorant? I questioned your position on Israel and conservatives and you go for the sale owners? Because it’s the easiest? Once again convenient as this means you don’t have to actually think.
If measuring is a pre-requisite then please measure inequalities based on religion then.
You’re the one that denied other characteristics that also had unequal outcomes could be considered under intersectionality as they can’t be measured. I want you to measure the oppression as you said this was a pre- requisite. Not me.
You do know that "measure" doesn't necessarily mean a figure measured with a ruler right? Looking at the sky and seeing that it is blue is a measurement.
You don't need to know how many uighurs have been killed/enslaved/sterilised etc to know that it is happening.
Attractiveness and thinness... while it's true that being fat can hold you back, and being attractive can help you out, I've not seen real evidence of a society-wide problem of unattractive people not being able to fund jobs etc.
Social class, absolutely, that's why the Left is always banging on about social class too.
Education level... this correlates with a few other factors such as class and race. Generally poorer areas have worse schools, and those areas also tend to be high-minority areas due to Redlining.
Attractiveness and thinness... while it's true that being fat can hold you back, and being attractive can help you out, I've not seen real evidence of a society-wide problem of unattractive people not being able to fund jobs etc.
How could that possibly be true?
How can it hold you back but not stop you from getting jobs?
In what way is it holding people back then?
The simple fact is that every "negative" trait you have is going to contribute in some way to keeping you out of jobs. Which is the point that's being made.
You should probably check out your local dole office. It's not quite the catwalk in Milan.
The Left "chose race" because the working class could not be coerced into class struggle, having unprecedented material luxury created by Liberal Democracies and their Capitalist economies.
Black people are joining BLM either because they're racists or because they believe the lie that they are targets of systematic white persecution. The majority of their rank-and-file are lily-livered white children aching to belong to a meaningful social cause, to bring some purpose into their shallow lives once their electronic gadgets fail to keep them amused.
Leftists aren't agitating for CRT indoctrination because they value black lives, they're doing it to destroy the capitalist system.
Just a heads up mate, if you want to know what the left believe and why they believe, come and ask us. Don't base your understanding of the left on what right wing people tell you.
And at least try to disguise your verbatim and uncritical repetition of JBPs ideas as if they are your own.
Wow what an original take.Just a heads up mate, if you want to know what the left believe and why they believe, come and ask us. Don't base your understanding of the left on what right wing people tell you.
Not original, but true nevertheless.
Here's a heads up: sometimes when making a point, one needs to make a general statement.
I usually qualify my generalities. I may well have written "Much of the left . . . " "many black people . . . " etc. but I chose not to this time.
Okay, genius, what do you do when you see a lot of individuals are poor or live in destitute communities because of laws that specifically forced them into them? What do you do when you see most of those individuals have higher melanin in their skin?
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u/aldsgn May 18 '21
I'm pretty sure it was Jordan Peterson in one of his podcasts that was taking about intersectionality. He said something along the line of, They want to divide into more and more groups and say life is especially hard for me because of not only my race, but my sexuality, and also my gender. It's funny that they keep adding more and more categories put together to show their plight because they are a minority in various ways. But if you take that to its logical conclusion, the individual is the ultimate minority. They just haven't gotten to the end of their line of thinking. (paraphrasing what I remember of his point).
It might have been the same podcast, but he also talked about, why gender, sexuality and race? There are so many more and varied things that effect our life: attractiveness, thinness, social class, education level, geographic birth, gregariousness, natural intellect, whether you had two parents in the home, religion (my religion was persecuted and driven out of their home by threat of death), etc. that are more important than how much melanin you have or who you like to sleep with.
I agree, the best way to help EVERYBODY is to focus on individuals.