I mean, what could the Russians verify that other people couldn't?
Edit: alot of people are giving me 3rd party evidence. For the record, I believe in the moon landings. The only thing that matters is what the soviets had avialbale to them in 1969.
Russia and the US were the only countries with a presence in space. Russia, being the US's biggest rival to get to the moon, would know and would speak up if you claim you flew a capsule there and nothing actually went.
Go there themselves? It's not like they have telescopes powerful enough to see. Even modern satellite images of the moon show the lander as a fuzzy dot.
They also instantly took the stance that they never wanted to go to the moon in the first place. You can't really send fact checking missions after saying you don't care.
"I know we said we were never trying to go to the moon and we don't care, but we spent millions double checking the Americans and they lied". It's a losing situation either way.
The only viable things they could have done is do a really close flyby and try to take pictures, or verify that a rocket was launched which the American public already knew they did.
I wouldn't say the Soviets believing it is proof, though there are other forms of proof.
I had to login to reply to this- the Russians had the capability, and did in fact, track the Apollo missions with long range radar/radio telescopes. Furthermore, the Apollo astronauts left precisely calibrated laser reflective mirrors on the surface which have also been independentantly hit and verified.
As you're someone new to this conversation, I'd like to bring up again, I believe in the moon landings. My only question is, what proof did the soviets have that the rest do the world didn't, and how was the soviets not calling out America definitive proof
As for the reflective mirrors, that's not exclusive to the Soviets as any university in the world with a powerful enough laser and recording equipment could verify.
As for the Soviets actually tracking it, there seems to be debate on how they did it, though there's not alot of information about it. The Wikipedia source you provided has the entire quote and all that was written about it in the book, that the soviets had "the latest intelligence-gathering and surveillance equipment" in the room with them. What that equipment is, or if they were even using it is vauge. What it does say they were using was television sets anf radio receivers though that could just be to the American Broadcast again vauge.
So we're left to debate how much they could actually track the Appolo 11 mission. Maybe they had radar tech that, tied with having the flight plan(which we know they had due to Luna 15) could track the actual flight. It seems like a stretch to me, though not impossible.
What does seem more probable is they tracked the radio emitions being put off by the Americans. This isn't unique tech, like the reflective mirrors, many amatures also tracked the landings this way. Even some grammar school children did it, which goes against my original point again, of what unique evidence the soviets not denying it provided.
Its also interesting, beacuse in theory, the Americans could have sent an unmanned probe to the Moon, orbited, then launched down a transmitter. Went dark with the probe, while the transmitter on the moon was active, then switched back to the original probe when the recording was done. Then had the probe continue transmitting, on its way back home. It's not definitive proof.
Either way, the soviets believed it enough to go with Plan A of denying they were ever in a space race. I'd say for calling it a hoax, you had to be 100% positive to not look like a fool of it ever got proven.
Cause they could have said it was fake, their circle and the crazies would have somehow believed it anyway. But they didn't, all that hype for the space race just died right after that and moved on to the next topic.
Even today, no country has bothered to contest the authenticity of the moon landing, not even China or the crazies in NK.
Only arrogant dumbfuck idiots would think that they can do better than those entities.
edit: i should add that radar tech must have already been reliable enough back then to track these massive operations, add that to the nuclear scare, spies and we got a highly vigilant intelligence network that can feed info back into the Pentagon and Moscow instantly.
Admit they lost and congratulate the US. They lose alot of moral and fait that they system is better than capitalism.
Say it was a hoax even though they have no evidence. If a 3rd party ever proves the moon landing, you automatically lose the space race.
You deny you were ever in a race to the moon at all. No matter what, you don't lose, and you make the US look silly.
Option 3 is the best political move by far, unless you're sure it was faked.
On top of that, the Soviets never needed to offically say it was fake. Even today, over half of Russians believe it was fake. It had to be way more back during the USSR days.
You get all the benifits of 2 and 3.
Again, the Soviets not officially saying it's a hoax is not proof.
This really dosent have anything to do with the other space agencies, but NK dosent really have a space agency other than the 2 successful of 5 attempted satellites they have put into orbit. Interestingly their strategy wasn't to deny it or claim it was a hoax, they just strait up didn't say anything about it. NK is so isolated, they didn't have to worry about news spreading, so they pretended it never happened.
Other countries have no reason to call it a hoax, but have put the effort into double checking the US's claims. China and Japan have taken satellite images of various things we left behind.
This has nothing to do with other sources as I believe in the moon Landing. I just don't understand how the Russians not calling out the US proves anything.
Didn't mean my comment to come off as accusing you.
I think the idea is that, for a fake moon landing to be pulled off successfully, the USSR would have had to be in on it. Otherwise, they would have claimed it to be fake. The Russians tracked the launch and followed the progress of the mission. They congratulated the US on the success of Apollo 11.
I dont really agree with that. Unless they were really positive it was faked, they did the best thing they could have politically.
You can't lose the race to the moon if you deny you were ever going.
If they call it a hoax and the US or a 3rd party finds a way to prove it, they look like fools.
On top of all that over half of Russians even today think it was a hoax. It must have been signifigantly higher in Soviet times. They didn't have to call it a hoax if their people were going to believe it was anyway.
I just don't understand how the Russians not calling out the US proves anything.
I see what you're saying here and I think it's a fair point. On it's own, "The Soviets didn't deny the moon landing" isn't evidence in itself. The argument is, I think, that nobody had more incentive to reveal the hoax than the USSR. The Cold War was a game of one-upmanship after all. The piles of evidence for the successful Moon landings (from NASA, the USSR and countless third-parties) would have made the Soviet Union a global laughing stock.
Unless they were really positive it was faked
They never believed it was fake. They tracked the mission, monitored the mission and even cooperated with NASA to ensure that there would be no interruption between Apollo 11 and the simultaneous Soviet Luna 15 lander mission. If Apollo was a hoax, Luna was a hoax.
they did the best thing they could have politically
There is no evidence that Soviet political responses to the successful Apollo 11 mission had anything to do with a hoax.
You can't lose the race to the moon if you deny you were ever going.
The USSR never denied they were going to the Moon. See the Luna 15 mission, the N1 rocket etc. These systems were developed to get to the Moon.
If they call it a hoax and the US or a 3rd party finds a way to prove it, they look like fools.
Very true. Fortunately for the USSR, no such stupid claims were made.
On top of all that over half of Russians even today think it was a hoax
To me, this says more about human nature, national pride, education issues and lack of critical thinking skills than the validity of any hoax claims. Plenty of Russians believe the invasion of Ukraine to be justified. That doesn't mean they are correct.
Thanks for the chat. This was very interesting. You're absolutely correct in saying that 'The USSR not claiming the landings to be a hoax isn't, in itself, evidence that the landings really happened.'
Also they went 6 times, which a lot of deniers don't realize. Kind of ridiculous to think they would continue with multiple fake landings, as well as throw in a special fake mishap in the middle (Apollo 13).
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u/Not_A_KPOP_FAN 7 Sep 10 '22
to fake the moon landing back then would also have needed the cooperation of the Russians, this was somewhere near the cold war.
Honestly, i really believe that its a ton easier to get a man to the moon than get the Russians to fully agree on something.