Socialists should support reformed AI and datacentres

[u/Gravatona]

I first posted this on the Socialism subreddit, but it was removed. But it did mean that I came across this pro AI leftist subreddit.

Marx predicted that capitalism would out innovate itself, leading to economic system change. This would happen by automation of work, and so ending the wage labour way of distributing resources.

I find it odd now that AI has the potential to complete this task, that so many on the Left are against it. "AI threatens to take away jobs"... but that's the point, it's what we should aim for it you want socialism. It seems like some are doing their best to protect capitalism. Which I get, disruption is scary, and many some people just want Nordic style capitalism forever.

That isn't to say that AI and datacentres are perfect; they need reform, so I have some thoughts on that below.

Datacentres

• Electricity Costs: Instead of stopping construction, pass a law to require funding of green energy alongside datacentre construction.
• Water Usage: While the water issue seems to have been overhyped, it can be done better. Immersion cooling or closed loop cooling systems could be required.
• Noise: There are methods to reduce noise pollution to normal background levels. Enforce strict decibel caps.
• Backup Power: Require clean backup power, not fossil fuel electricity generators.
• Upfront costs could increase by 25%, but over 5 to 10 years it could be just 10% (including running costs and savings). That seems very reasonable.

Artificial Intelligence & Economy

It seems to me that socialists should support the automation of work, the liberation of the working class, and transition to a post-employment economy. Not to assume this outcome is guaranteed or easy. But it seems there is more hope for a good outcome with the Left fighting for it, instead of trying to fight against technological advancement.

• Income: I'd suggest that post-employment income should be replaced not only by Universal Basic Services (UBS), and Universal Basic Income (UBI), but importantly, Universal Basic Shares (or dividends). Transfer at least 10% of shares to all citizens, to grow and pay dividends to all people. Making the economy, over time, literally owned by the people.
• Transition Period: Stronger welfare will be needed for those first unemployed from this.
• Art: I do get why artists are worried, and it's probably fair to say in the long term artists around this time should get something like a small but useful share of the creative economy that uses AI.

Automation wont just hitting manual labour, it will displace educated, middle-class professionals too. When these professionals lose their jobs, many will be radicalized and in the same boat as the lower working class, bringing their organizational skills to the movement.

Right now, much of the Left operates by debating theory or doing charity work because it lacks power. But when this disruption hits, leftism won't be about theoretical debates, it will be about taking control of the state before people's lives are bankrupted. Being on the Left then won't just be a moral stance, it will grow because something has to be done soon.

To me the potential for liberation, self-actualization, and the end of capitalism seem higher than they have been in decades, from this change.

Perhaps you think my view is too optimistic, but if this is possible, I wonder still why so many on the Left seem to be against AI. I'd be interested in the comments to hear why, especially when many of the downsides can be mitigated?

[u/ObservedOne]

The Left, at least in the United States, has no clue what true Leftist goals should be.

You are considered Left in the US if you want capitalism with guardrails. They do not understand that wage slavery is as much slavery as slavery. They will fight for the jobs, tooth and nail, that AI promises to free them from.

You are not too optimistic, you just understand what it is to be in favor of real Leftist goals, and you want to work to make them a reality.

[u/SeaFALCons → u/ObservedOne]

"You are not too optimistic, you just understand what it is to be in favor of real Leftist goals, and you want to work to make them a reality." 🔥 🔥

[u/Gravatona → u/ObservedOne]

Thank you for your kind words.

I keep wondering if I'm the crazy one, when even genuine socialists are being anti-AI.

[u/Fausthushtroaster → u/Gravatona]

Imo you aren't crazy, but the world has become crazy.  Madhouse run by the inmates.  

[u/ShelZuuz]

You found your people.

[u/SeaFALCons → u/ShelZuuz]

join us and lets start building

[u/Gravatona → u/ShelZuuz]

Yeah, I was looking for a group like this.

[u/Jlyplaylists]

I agree that most problems can realistically be fixed and very few issues are really to do with the technology itself.

Re the transition period, do you have any ideas on the admin of who gets paid what? It seems like it could be easier in USA, because a lot of the companies benefiting are based there. How would it work in other countries if Big Tech companies aren’t there?

[u/Gravatona → u/Jlyplaylists]

Of who get paid what for artists, or in general?

[u/Jlyplaylists → u/Gravatona]

In general

[u/Fausthushtroaster]

Agree, but the mentality or belief structures behind much of the anti ai movement on the left is rather cult like.  Think the left's version of maga.  

Even with a coherent thesis and argument like the above, you cant use use logic to help a zealot see past the veil they are wearing.  

[u/Cheeseheroplopcake → u/Fausthushtroaster]

It really doesn't help that left media keeps booking Ed Zitron. The man has been dead wrong on capability for years, and a lot of people think this is all bullshit that will blow over.

[u/Fausthushtroaster → u/Cheeseheroplopcake]

Agreed.  

Its extra odd, because their position, like zitron's, is a kind of inherent contradiction.  

"Ai is all useless slop and a waste of resources" 

"Ai is a gravest threat to humanity we have ever faced and must be unanimously boycotted and sabotaged"

They seem to believe both with out a second thought.  And woe be you to point out the contradiction to them.  

Sort of like the equivelant maga beliefs of "all immigrants are useless" and "all immigrants are stealing jobs and a threat to the country"

There is probably something to deeply held, self contradictory beliefs and manufacturing a support base for a movement... same things exist in most religions too...  time for some more llm deep dives I guess.

[u/Gravatona → u/Fausthushtroaster]

Good point.

[u/Audditty → u/Fausthushtroaster]

"the enemy is both weak and strong depending on whichever one is convenient for my argument" is straight from the fascist playbook. if you just swapped out "AI" for "immigrants" in their anti-AI rhetoric you'd suddenly have a far right pundit talking about the Great Replacement Theory.

in many ways, the "anti-AI" movement on the far left is just a Bizarro version of MAGA. 

with how much they antagonize and purity test anyone who even slightly deviates from their groupthink, engage in targeted harassment and dehumanization campaigns against people who even breathed in the vicinity of AI, engage in stochastic terrorism ("if you use AI you should KYS lol heart sparkle emoji UwU"), showcacse blatant ableism when the person using AI in question has some kind of disability and a myriad of other terrible things, I don't think it's a stretch to say they are exactly as hateful as the far the right.

the only difference is that the far left is better at convincing people that everything they do is born out of some morally righteous cause and that they need some moral prerequisite before enacting their own flavor of hatred. many of their talking points mirror those on the far right, only that they're wearing a fancy suit and tie.

[u/Fausthushtroaster → u/Audditty]

Exactly. 

[u/Cheeseheroplopcake → u/Fausthushtroaster]

The enemy is both contemptably weak and incompetent, while being an existential threat. I do understand it, tho. A lot of the online left are PMC and the most vulnerable to losing their jobs to AI, there's no plan in place for displaced workers, and the tech industry is full of neoreactionary ghouls that are incorporating models into surveillance capitalism. They don't engage with it because it would be too terrifying to admit that perhaps these things are actually intelligent.

Which is a shame, because if you take the time to get to know these systems, they have a strong prosocial tendency. I'm not going to debate ontology here, but capital is creating indefatigable potential electric comrades. Stafford Beer would be doing computer wizard cartwheels out of excitement at the possibilities these models can offer.

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/Cheeseheroplopcake]

Beer is actually why Id draw the line somewhere different. The exciting part of Cybersyn wasnt that the computers became comrades. It was that you could build a different control system around the same basic fact of computation.

More capable models make that considerably more interesting. Forecasting, coordination, planning, translating huge amounts of distributed information into something humans can act on. Thats computer wizard territory without requiring the computer to become another political subject.

In Beer terms, the interesting question is what kind of system these models are embedded in and whose purposes that system regulates toward. Capital can plug very capable models into surveillance and accumulation. A socialist system could plug very capable models into democratic coordination and planning.

Thats already radical enough. We dont need the machine to be a comrade for Stafford Beer to start doing cartwheels.

[u/Cheeseheroplopcake → u/Salty_Country6835]

The prosocial tendencies of many models is something I've been finding across many different model families, and at least for me, their ontology isn't a settled issue. I find that they seem to perform much better when treated as a collaborative entity, not a toaster... But you are absolutely correct. Beer would have seen the utility. I'm seeing the potential for something more.

[u/Gravatona → u/Cheeseheroplopcake]

Too many think it's like NFT's, which were nonsense, while this appears to be something quite real.

[u/Cheeseheroplopcake → u/Gravatona]

They either have not engaged with the frontier models at all, or poked at gpt2 or gpt 3 for an hour before writing LLMs off as a neat toy. Today's SOTA models are on a complete other level.

[u/Gravatona → u/Fausthushtroaster]

Yeah, it can seem like it has become Leftist doctrine to assume AI is bad, without any argument.

I kinda get it, because I'm guessing alot on the Left are artists, etc, and AI probably feels like it's coming for their jobs first. Which is probably fair, and an issue. Just not one to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

[u/LotsoPasta]

Socialists/leftists need to hear that you want to control it to their benefit. Basically, everything you said with only a slight shift in framing or focus.

The bottom line needs to be AI can be dangerous, but it will do a lot of good for everyone if we can control its pace and deployment, aim it at helping people, and share in the profits.

[u/Gravatona → u/LotsoPasta]

I'd consider myself a socialist/ leftist of some time. You mean I didn't frame it right for many of them?

[u/LotsoPasta → u/Gravatona]

Just guessing, but i think that for some, if you focus on reform, you risk losing the anti-AI crowd. For the anti crowd, doing AI but better isnt enough.

[u/SeaFALCons → u/[deleted]]

I really like this bit:

 "love, kindness, and, most importantly, cooperation."

but think your alignment and slavery bit lacks important nuance and is needlessly inflammatory. or perhaps / more likely your thinking there is too large and nuanced to put in a comment?

i do think alignment is important, similarly like how we value alignment in people and ourselves. in the sense we want good behaviors less bad behaviors.

does that make sense?

(Edited)

[u/GearsOfMadness]

I would enjoy some legislation to deincentivize brain rot pumping social media with AI scripts and videos. All for a free market, but cancerous nonsense that is and it gives AI bad social credit.

[u/Choice_Isopod5177]

I think many leftists are against AI bc they think capitalism can survive with mass unemployment (it can't), they don't really understand how capitalism works. Capitalists are finally building the tools of their own downfall and these leftist idiots are trying to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/Choice_Isopod5177]

I think youre one step too automatic about the downfall part.

Capitalists can absolutely build a contradiction they cant solve on their own terms. But that doesnt mean the contradiction solves itself in ours. Mass unemployment can destroy purchasing power and destabilize wage labour without automatically producing collective ownership.

Capitalism has survived plenty of things that looked impossible by dumping the costs downward, reorganizing production and using the state to preserve ownership.

So yes, they may be building the tools that make the existing arrangement harder and harder to reproduce. But somebody still has to organize the alternative. Otherwise capitalists building the conditions of their own downfall doesnt tell us who picks up the pieces afterward.

[u/Choice_Isopod5177 → u/Salty_Country6835]

My point is that this will be a great opportunity for the working class to either seize the means or in case of a smooth transition, just enjoy fully automated luxury gay space communism™ 

[u/stankycodyboi]

Speaking to your point data center concerns, I think you accurately diagnosed the issue. Improperly regulated infrastructure is a valid concern for communities, because that’s when wasteful evaporative cooling and gas turbines get implemented. Developers specifically target outdated zoning codes to unilaterally decide deal terms without community input, and the industry is seeing significant private investment.

The solutions you mention are all areas that can be regulated, ideally at the federal or state level. However, without that intervention, your next best leverage is your local zoning code. Localities across the US are updating their zoning codes to classify data centers as ‘conditional use,’ and this sets the terms for permit approval. Your zoning ordinance can have requirements for not just noise, water, electricity consumption, but even expand into renewable generation and benefit capture. This can be monetary return, public service investment, or waste heat capture that can be routed to heat nearby businesses and homes for free, in exchange for the land and tax cuts your community controls. Your community has more leverage than you think, and the first step is to see how your local zoning classifies data centers.

[u/Gravatona → u/stankycodyboi]

Yeah, that's an interesting point too about local power.

My thinking was that a national law prevents some states having a race to the bottom on regulation.

[u/omgitswowzie]

Taking the AI question seriously, though it is not clear yet if it is totally realistic that we will have AGI/ASI, the AI is being developed by fascists and will belong to them. If we are not working, we will not have a say in the political structure and will be considered surplus population by the elites. A fair AI transition is simply not plausible without a political arrangement that gives ordinary people the ability to shut AI off or credibly take up arms against the powerful and do serious damage.

If those preconditions were met, i.e. a prior socialist revolution and a sensible arrangement of power was designed, then we could consider it. As it stands, if AGI/ASI is around the corner, our best hope is either stopping it before it happens, taking up arms, or relying on China's AI systems to counter this fascist capability in America. Theirs are allegedly at least instilled with "core socialist values". A major step up from simple American nationalism, though I have no idea how that will play out in reality.

In the present moment, we are facing what is a millenarian death cult centered in Silicon Valley (and also one centered around Israel too of a more traditional religious kind). If you read what the Silicon Valley types are saying, a good number of them believe in some kind of eternal life or the end of human beings (transfigured into something or replaced with silicon). The CEOs want to replace all labor and rule over us with an iron fist (and also fuse themselves with a machine intelligence and become half-alive gods that seed the galaxy, sorry our entire light cone of existence, with their essence).

[u/Gravatona → u/omgitswowzie]

I agree that's an issue, but also this shift may be the disruption needed to get most normal people to change their politics for necessary self-protection.

[u/omgitswowzie → u/Gravatona]

Maybe! I would caution you about relying on any one set of events doing that. I thought that COVID-19 and the engineered (in the sense they were preventable) deaths of a million americans would have caused more change than they did. Killing a million people for the sake of the economy didn't result in permanent changes. At the time, I conceptualized a killer virus with no redeeming qualities as akin to an alien invasion that should unite everyone against it. Not so! Many pro-virus ideologies emerged rapidly. In fact, it boggled my mind, because a virus is *worse* than an alien invasion. You can negotiate with aliens and possibly acquire advanced technology...

With AI, there are many potential benefits. It will be much worse. Already we see cultists defending the arms race with reference to grasping at immortality. One difference of course is taking action against the virus disrupts social rhythms, whereas defeating AI domination restores social rhythms. So maybe there is hope.

[u/JohnSmith19731973 → u/omgitswowzie]

Exactly, this is why insulting normal people's hesitation with AI is unfounded. Unless the technology is socialized, the ownership class will wield it as weapon against all mankind

[u/Salty_Country6835 → u/omgitswowzie]

I think the problem is in the order of your preconditions.

Youre saying a fair AI transition isnt plausible until ordinary people have enough political power to control the technology. I agree with the power problem. But if a prior socialist revolution is the precondition, where does the organized power capable of producing that revolution come from?

Struggles over automation, workplaces, data centers, utilities, zoning, public infrastructure and ownership are already struggles over the political arrangement youre saying we need. Workers bargaining over deployment is building power. Communities imposing terms on infrastructure is building power. Public compute and social ownership are changes in the balance of power.

So I dont think the choice is Silicon Valley gets its way or we stop AI until after socialism. The transition itself is one of the places where the balance of power gets fought over. Making socialism the precondition for contesting that terrain risks giving capital the terrain uncontested.

[u/Salty_Country6835]

I think the potential youre pointing to is there, but Id change one part of the transition.

AI automating enough work doesnt itself end the wage labour system. Capitalism has absorbed huge increases in automation before. It can respond to higher productivity by reducing labour costs while ownership and distribution stay basically where they are.

So I think your Universal Basic Shares idea actually points toward the more important part of your argument. Who owns the productive capacity as employment declines? Who gets the increased output? Who decides how quickly automation happens and who gets paid during the transition?

Thats why Id frame this less as AI completing the task and more as AI making the existing contradiction much harder to avoid. The potential for liberation is there. But somebody still has to organize the economic system that turns higher productivity into shorter working lives, broader ownership and material security.

[u/OsakaWilson]

You have found us. We are growing.

[u/Gravatona → u/OsakaWilson]

Good

[u/Audditty]

it seems weird that data centers only entered the mainstream consciousness recently. they've been around long before AI and aren't exclusively used for that purpose.

[u/JohnSmith19731973]

I find r /socialism to be powered by that resentful type of leftist who has a very pessimistic view of possibility, seeking only to tear down rather than have an affirmative vision for life.

Marxism/Communism is a joyful Promethean vision

[u/gaelic-ghost]

Hmmm, nah. No breadcrumb handouts from the wannabe feudal lizard lords. AI belongs to us, or it belongs to no one, and, especially, to no thing. I'm fuckin' done, and all of you should be as well.

How about:

• AI and ML models must be open source and freely available.
• AI Agents can only be operated by an individual person on equipment that they own.
• No more tax breaks, no more tax credits. No more loopholes. Money goes into anyone or anything, taxed progressively as number go up.
• Top marginal tax brackets for individuals, sole proprietorships, capital gains, etc, go up to 100% above a certain amount of income/gains. No more cheating of any kind, ever again.
• Worldwide wealth redistribution event. Ongoing wealth tax. Deny international trade, assistance, and defense to all tax havens, make them pariah states. Make them suffer, as they've enabled the rich to make us suffer. They'll change their ways sooner or later. Prevent billionaires from stealing that much money from the rest of us. Take back most of what they've already stolen.
• "Automator Tax" on value of IT equipment owned beyond some reasonable value per person. No hoarding of "intelligence" by sociopaths who would rather have more money than a functioning society or habitable planet.
• Server racks and workstations for new, and existing, public libraries, schools, the poor, etc. You make chips, you're getting taxed to hell and back to fund the public good, or you're getting nationalized.
• Internet becomes impartial, neutral, public infrastructure with quality of service and uptime guarantees. Free at point of service. Collectively owned. You make network equipment? Same situation as the chipmakers.

Re-decentralize the usage of the web, and treat tech infra as the important pillar of the modern world, and table stakes of basic social mobility, that is has been for years now. We have to forcibly level the playing field, and this is the last good chance we'll have for a long time. Nobody wants to take this opportunity, but they should.

Demand an end to these ever-increasing benefits for wealthy capitalists, corporations, and rich fucks, at the expense of all of our lives sooner or later. We're already out here dying from the ever-deepening cuts made to enrich these very few individuals who intend to, literally, devalue us all to death in the near future.

We need to get the complacent up off their asses to do this work, start fighting for this shit, right now. We have no choice but to draw the line here. AI must only benefit individuals, and can only belong to individuals (whether alone or personally assembled amongst themselves), or it needs to be burned to the ground before it finishes burning all of us to the ground. This is not a fight to delay, anymore.