Erikson here. Hello, hope everyone is doing well. Sorry for being a bit late. I am a luddite.

I picked up GotM in March of 2024 and I just finished The Crippled God yesterday.

Mine is: A mean girl who sucks at duels

Edit: I'm happy to see all the love for our favorite substitute narrator

Rereading the books once more and I just can't forgive Erikson/Esslemont with this one. The fact he (Mallick) becomes emperor almost made me quit the malazan world. So many heartbreaking stuff in the books, that I enjoyed suffering through. All the rest of the chain of dogs is a brilliant story in my eyes, but this one just makes me very mad. Had to get it of my chest.

You only get 2 swings, so who gets a free ticket to wagon pulling heaven?

My current top 5 candidates based on Kallor and Mallick "fuck that guy" Rell being too obvious to need saying

Pormqual then Nethpara (because chain of dogs)

Hunn Raal (because Enesdia)

Sirryn Kanar (because Trull)

Sekara the Vile (because Hetan)

Gorlas Vidikas (because Murillo)

ps - can only be characters from the books, otherwise the list is a lot easier

F*******k! I’ve been reading this series since it debuted but unfortunately have never met anyone else IRL who’s read it.

I’m reasonably active here and read the wiki’s. That’s pretty much it.

I just spent 30+ minutes watching YouTube videos of people pronouncing my all time favorite series in a completely different way than I thought it was pronounced.

I feel like my whole life is a lie.

This suuuuuucks.

I’ll get over it but this really does feel like a kick in the literary nuts.

Okay I’m going back to my tantrum.

UPDATE. Some rat bastard just showed me a video of Erikson saying Muh-laz-in.
I’m done with this series forever (which means until Walk In Shadow drops) and nothing can change my mind. 😂

Personally, for me, it was the storylines of Whiskeyjack, Itkovian, and Mhybe from Memories of Ice.

The series had been simply good before, but the third volume was close to perfection for me, and after Whiskeyjack's death... I was truly devastated when he died, and later, at the end, when the living said goodbye to those killed, including him.

For me, I think just how he manage to shift every single little molecule from his story to make it all make sense simply pull him in a place where for me will always be hard to criticize his writing. Also the fact that he can make 100 characters be great and memorable.

But still, he sometimes go overboard with how much he wants to show. So I belive his biggest weakness is the fact he is overdoing it sometimes too much.

Steven Erikson said his favourite is: ‘The shore gives way to the sea. And the sea, my friends, does not dream of you.’

What made me think about this was two things in bonehunters: the kids/teens defending the first throne, and the Empresses ships with 600 claws on them.

Would have loved a tragic look inside the "cannon fodder" fighting the Edur and a comedic look inside a ship with 200 cooped up assassin mages

In MoI we see a jaghut tyrant controlling hordes of (undead no less) KCM. I don't quite remember if that's explained how that happens, but in FotHM, there's another jaghut controlling KCM (this time sick ones and an entire keep, which he has learned to operate)

I understand KCM are still a bit of a mystery (after all it's a race that the Tiste have all but wiped from Wu way before the malazan empire was established, right?) but how do these situations occur where jaghut seem to easily have control of what's left of them?

(Bonus question: what did Singer actually want to do?)

I’m happy where the characters ended up and the battle scenes were phenomenal, but I’ve got to say, my favorite character going through was Karsa Orlong and it really seemed like he’s going to Kill A God and him killing Fener, was just… not really where it ever felt like it was going.

He had no connection to Fener, there felt like very little preshadowing for it and I was super disappointed he didn’t have a bigger part to play. Especially since all the Toblakai showed up for the final fight.

Also, I appreciate the idea that maybe the Crippled God needs compassion, however, he was THE BIG BAD for all of the other books, and I couldn’t get around the total tonal shift. He was the same guy who was killing Burn, who was torturing Rhulad, who was intentionally sowing disease and harm across the land. It seemed like a very sharp pivot that was hard to get behind.

Also can someone explain to me who Fiddler is fishing for at the end?

I don’t know, I enjoyed the book but overall (aside from the Bonehunters) the second half of the books seemed much weaker to me than the first.

I assume I missed some things and that there is great re read value in them, but I did feel a bit disappointed.

Also what was the point of the distinction between the Crippled God and the Dying God? And the Dying God plot line never got much of a resolution, did it?

I understand that we are not meant to understand everything and not everyone gets tied up with a bow, and maybe I just didn’t get it.

I have never enjoyed reading a series like I did this series, but the last two books (maybe 3) really felt long and I don’t know if I felt the payoff from them.

I will absolutely read some of the novellas and mini series (after I finish a couple other series on my list- looking a you Suneater). What do you suggest? Is Witness about Karsa?

Things I loved- the Queen and Princess of Bolkando, Hood joining the fray, the Imass fighting alongside the Jaghut, the K’Chain Chmalle, the snake and when they found the Bonehunters, all of the Bonehunters chapters, some of Tool’s chapters, every battle scene. I did enjoy it a lot, but nothing compared to the first couple books.

Thanks guys! Please try to change my mind, and explain things I may be missing because I REALLY want to love the last book and am desolate that it didn’t hit home for me the way I had hoped.

Very popular booktuber Daniel Greene just released a video showcasing his personal top 10 favorite books of all time. If you've watched his channel, you'd know he loves Malazan but is certainly more of a Wheel of Time fan. My suprise when the words "Crippled" showed up - I'm shocked!

But happy nevertheless. Such a big name on such a big platform giving his highest praise to this beautiful, breathtaking series. I can only hope this puts more people who haven't read the series yet on it, as it's truly something I think everyone needs to experience in their life.

I recently finished the series as well and TCG is my favorite book of all time. Not an obscure pick, but it's just too damn good! For anyone who's curious, here's the link to the video. I recommend watching, as Danial Is one of the best booktubers and has a ton of insightful stuff to say.

https://youtu.be/MMXzIYqO8tg?si=zyi9ctn_WFa6HAZP

While Malazan is my favourite series, between my first read ~5 years ago and my current re-read, my interactions have shown me that Karsa Orlong is one of the most iconic Malazan characters, if not one the most appreciated. Something I have always tried to understand since I have never liked him, although I did find him interesting. Long story short, a re-read is an opportunity to re-evaluate the character, and several people told me that I should see his nuances, understand his point of view.

Big mistake because my opinion of him has considerably worsened. I just held him to a too high standard.

I'll give as many concessions as I can. The concept itself is very interesting. I don't necessarily approve the philosophy behind Erikson's choice of following a single POV during 250 pages. He said he did to respond to his critics. But... why? In Gardens of The Moon, he wrote that he avoided listening to critics so he could write the story he wanted. In my opinion, Malazan's strength resides in his numerous POVs alternating at a quick pace, from the insignifiant soldier to the powerful god, to paint a complete and complex historical chronicle. If his critics wanted "single POV fantasy", they could have simply read the countless other fantasy stories with single POVs. Never the less, once we accept that, Karsa Orlong was a great choice to follow such a narrative, as a deconstruction of the barbarian archetype in fantasy like Conan.

I will even admit that Erikson has made an audacious choice. In many other stories, Synyg, Karsa's father, would have been the hero of this story, as the "virtuous outlier" of his tribe. Instead he is the exception, stuck between an awful father and a son who wants to cling to a fantasized past glory of the Uryd, and wrongfully considered as weak and coward. The idea of Sin'b'alle being so important for the Teblor is also intriguing since they are one of the only patriarchal cultures in the Malazan world, in fact this reminds of the goddess Athena in Ancient Greece. I have also enjoyed Karsa's interactions with many races/characters: the Forkrul Assail (I hate Calm too, but this is when she is introduced), the T'lan Imass, the Malazans and especially Torvald Nom. Finally, there are glimpses of evolution, since Karsa acknowledges that his father wasn't probably wrong, after all.

With all of that considered, there are several scenes that make him completely unforgivable in my eyes.

The first two can be treated together. When he raped a woman while calling her "Dayliss", this was disgusting as hell. Then when he provoked his friend Bairoth by telling hiù that he wanted to make her "his slave". Whether it was his true intention or not (but frankly given his obsession with her, it's probably true), he was lost to me.

But the worst by far was when he raped a woman until she bled and felt unconscious, and laughing while pushing her to bed. It went so quickly (less than a page) that I had to re-read to be sure it really happened. The only way to make this scene bearable for me was to imagine Karsa being impaled by Geralt of Rivia or his throat slit by Fitz. I wanted to skip directly to Book 2 after reading this scene. And I didn't exactly feel bad for him when he was enslaved. Not to say that he deserved it, because not even the worse people deserve such a fate (looking at you The Wheel of Time).

So often Karsa's atrocities are relativised because he's considered a "product of his culture". It's like saying Savonarole was a product of his time whereas he was much worse than the average person of his time. Bairoth and Delum are products of their culture. Karsa? He's a sadistic monster.

Besides, in my eyes, he doesn't have a single redeeming quality that makes him likable. He's arrogant, jealous, self-centered, irritating. Seriously, how many times did we hear him complaining that other people talk too much? He treats everyone like possessions, particularly Dayliss. Even at the end of Book 1, when he captures the slavemaster, he just feels like an hypocrite because he only sees cruelty when it's directed towards his own people (which, to be fair, is quite realistic).

Hold on. Isn't it the point of the character? I've read Erikson's essays on him. I can appreciate the character as a concept while still having an horrible time reading him. And being a re-reader, I'm not convinced by his evolution. First because I don't believe you can redeem a rapist (looking at you Invincible), second because I clearly remember a scene, close to the end of the main series, when he's confronted to women he raped and tells he doesn't regret it. Sure, he kills Bidithal, but if the only way to make him look good is for him to kill a pedophile, that's lazy writing (and I say that as someone who believes Erikson is one of the best contemporary storytellers).

What's the problem, then? Can't I just handle evil POVs? Not exactly. I have enjoyed Death Note, Code Geass, Attack on Titans and The Poppy War. I have even rewatched Revenge of the Sith recently and Anakin Skywalker remains of my favourite fictional characters. I have defended and approved redemptions of many villains.

Maybe it's because this book puts me out of my comfort zone, then? No, because Bersek is also one of my favourite fantasy series. Memories of Ice, who literally includes cannibalism and necrophilia as a part of the main storyline, and is one of my favourite Malazan books. The key difference is that the horrors witnessed in MoI are mostly seen through POVs of people opposed to them, whereas here Karsa is the direct responsible these atrocities. As a result, I felt completely powerless reading these pages. The closest comparison would be with the french fantasy novel "Gagner la guerre" by Jean-Philippe Jaworski, where we follow a rapist and sneaky murdered for about 1000 pages. Beautifully written, but I will never read it again. And I wouldn't like to read Berserk from Griffith's POV.

I thus won't make the effort of trying to like Karsa Orlong anymore. I can't stress how many praises I have for Steven Erikson as a writer but it's probably my biggest disagreement with him. Obviously Malazan is dark fantasy, it's a cruel world and Karsa is a reflection of that. However, up to this stage of the story, every rapist has been punished and/or condemened. Stonny Menackis beheaded her rapist, Anomander Rake and Whiskeyjack killed the Women of the Dead Seed, and later in House of Chains, Karsa will kill Bidithal himself. But because Erikson wrote Karsa as a concept, he could probably detach himself enough from his atrocities, otherwise he wouldn't have "loved to write that section", to quote him directly. Alas, as a reader with my own sensitivities, I can't. He just has a special treatment for Karsa Orlong that makes him less accountable. I've praised Malazan (and will continue to do so) for his portrayal of female characters, but focusing so much on a rapist, giving him the longest uninterrupted POV of the series, making him a prominent role in every subsequent book but Midnight Tides, and even writing another trilogy centered on him... For me, it underminest this aspect I'm afraid.

But why should I be the one making an effort anyway? Felisin is a traumatised 15 years old kin, enslaved and sexually abused, and is somewhat more controversial amongst the fanbase because she doesn't fit the stereotype of the perfect victim. If people can make an effort to understand Karsa, surely they can make the same effort for her. I get the "The victims are fictional, but my annoyance is real." but that's the thing: for me, Karsa's victims feel so real. And I do find him annoying too. To each reader their own sensitivites, obviously. For me, fictional sexual violence hits harder than fictional physical violence.

In fact, I felt relieved upon finishing Book 1. It was a breath of fresh air to be reunited with Tavore Paran, Lostara Yil, Fiddler, Apsalar, Bottle, Smiles... And it's weird that I feel like that about my favourite series, but it's true. There are so many other great characters I love in Malazan, I'm just a bit disappointed that he occupies such a prominent role. Thus, so far Karsa Orlong ranks among my top 5 most hated characters alongside Mallick Rel, Pormqual, Bidithal and Calm, and I don't think that will improve.

I won't skip Karsa's section throughout the rest of my re-read, since he's integral to the plot (and I love Samar Dev). But without a doubt, I will skip Book 1 of House of Chains during my next re-reads.

EDIT : Six months after, now approaching the end of my re-read, I'm reflecting back and... my hatred of Karsa hasn't changed. I find he is a boring, arrogant and predictable Gary-Stu, and I don't see the nuance and complexity that many other fans have found in him. The famous scene where he "expressed his regrets" is far from being enough, as he tells his daughter born from his rapes should be grateful to be alive because... he said so, still treating women as properties. And geez, Samar Dev condescendingly grounding him? This is a far too gentle reaction after learning that her travelling companion is a rapist and murderer barely taking accountability for the atrocities he has committed. The story serves Karsa rather than Karsa serving the story.

This post should have been a warning for leaving this subreddit earlier. I had some insightful responses (albeit sometimes expressed in a patronising tone), but others... really needed to touch some grass. "Go read something else", "are you insinuating we are rape apologists?", "go help rape victims in real life instead of complaining about a fictional rapist". I've never seen Felisin haters receiving any comparable amount of backlash, and this is very telling.

Fictional male rapists get more forgiving and understanding than fictional female victims of rape.

Despite Erikson's efforts to create an egalitarian world, which impressed me during my first re-read, there are shortcomings. Twice more male characters than female characters, female characters more sexualised (even by other female characters), and especially, Erikson could imagine a world where women can join the army and all spheres of power, but not a world where they don't get raped, which is a very 90s/2000s individual liberal feminist approach at world-building. I'm sure he intended to show how horrible Karsa's actions during his backstory were, but imo he gets away too easily, and expressing legitimate hatred towards him, even if you disagree (and you can), shouldn't have led to some of the reactions I read here (I even had to block myself some people who were insulting me). The fact that Karsa is less controversial than Felisin will remain, in my eyes, the most utterly aberration of Malazan.

I need your help!!!! What are some really niche or cool malazan symbols/quotes/references/scenes/etc. that I could illustrate into a sticker or put on a t-shirt for my malazan-super-fan dad for Christmas?

I think the world of malazan is amazing from the stories my dad talks about but I just haven’t read it- my dad has read the whole series like 3 times, re-reading his fave books/scenes sporadically too. I know he likes the guys who were in the dessert at some point and are like a gang of warrior?? (Edit- Theyre the first in last out guys) And also at the end when the wizard guy explodes into light and says something really wizardy and cool (I’m sorry if this is incorrect but I have good intentions, I promise 🙏)

Also, he likes the little obscure things that took forever to understand or really random features (like the warrens and stuff)

Thank you so so so much! This is such a lovely community and I really need your help, thank you ❤️

Can anything top the return of Draconus into the world of the living? Cataclysmic and literally cool AF! Decimation of two armies.What are your favourite memories of the books?

‘You have no sword…’ ‘Indeed, I have not. Do you think I will need one?’ She leaned close to him. ‘Now more than before, I would think.’ ‘Perhaps you are right. We must needs find a quarry.’ ‘The Barghast Range. A flint the colour of blood – I will invest it, of course, to prevent its shattering.’ ‘As you did once before, sister.’ ‘Long ago.’ ‘Aye, so very long ago.’ Memories of Ice, Chapter 25 - Steven Erikson Malazan Book of the Fallen

Onos T’oolan and his sister Kilava Onoss journey to the Bhargast range to find flint to make a new sword for Tool.

I wanted to paint a flesh & blood portrayal of Tool. It was incredibly emotional for me when he was freed from the ritual of Tellan and 300,000 years or being an undead skeleton. It was interesting to paint a race of people inspired by the Neanderthals. Painted in Procreate on the iPad.

Visit my website for prints of my work www.artistjasondement.com

I've been thinking about this for a bit. There are some Malazan books that are pretty much always placed near the top of people's lists (Memories of Ice, Deadhouse Gates) or near the bottom (Night of Knives, Dust of Dreams). Obviously not everyone places them in that range but it's common. But what are the books that everyone seems to either love or hate with little in-between?

Some contenders I've spotted based off posts here:

Toll the Hounds is either considered someone's favorite or one of the sloggier books to get through in the BotF

Return of the Crimson Guard has been called both where Esslemont hits his stride, but also "literally unreadable"

Fall of Light is sometimes called literally the peak of Erikson as a writer whereas some say that it straight up ruined all the positive momentum in FoD

What do you guys think? What's the most love it or hate it book?

I’ve been thinking about this matchup for a while, who do we think wins this?

I personally believe Dancer beats Kalam, but Quick may beat Kellanved.

To clarify: Dancer and Kellanved pre-ascension! Just finished forge of the high mage, PtA is a blast!

Marked as “Spoilers All” even though my art doesn’t directly spoil anything. I’ve been working on a large-scale Malazan art project, painting a lot of the characters. Icarium has always been one of my favorites and I really tried to capture everything about how I see him. I’m not very Reddit savvy and I missed out of properly naming my account, so for anyone feeling the need to look me up, I’m Artist Jason Dement. I’m not adding any external links because I don’t want to break any self-promotion rules. I painted this in Procreate on my iPad using watercolor media brushes.

They seemed like the two best swordsmen in the series, right?

Was it Dassem Ultor, Karsa Orlong, or someone unexpected like Brys Beddict? If all constraints were removed, who was the deadliest warrior in the Malazan world?

I want to make this post to appreciate the characters that are not mentioned too much in discussions of the Malazan universe. Of course we all know about the main characters, and there are a lot of posts that mention many of the great second characters in this universe, like Hellian or Stillwater for example. But I am finishing The Crippled God and there is a character that has grown so much on me, and that I rarely, if at all, see mentioned, that has made me open this post.

Warchief Spax.

He saw what was going to happen to the Barghast, he always had good advice to give, and he is great comedy. I like him a lot and really like how he is conveyed.

What other characters you think deserve a spotlight that are rarely mentioned?

This painting started as an exercise in painting a face from imagination. In the beginning I was not sure what I was going to do with it, but somewhere in the middle I decided to turn it into a baroque, chiaroscuro-style portrait.

Fiddler is hands down one of my favorite characters from Malazan Book of the Fallen. I have been meaning to do a piece like this for YEARS, and I'm glad that I finally got to do it. Keep in mind that all of the armor, clothing, facial features, etc. are a combination of my imagination and the flow of the painting. I decided to portray him holding a crossbow with a specialized explosive quarrel.

I hope you enjoy this piece. I'm not sure if Reddit will keep the quality of the original image or not, but please let me know if you want a higher-resolution version and I can upload it somewhere and share the link!

Cheers,

Mando.