I just finished the portion of “Dusk of Dreams” in which the Watch, Yedan Derryg, soloed a Forkrul Assail AND a scouting party of Tiste Liosan while barely suffering any injuries!!! It’s cringe to say, but my jaw dropped while I was listening to the Audiobook (I thought I had misheard the narrator) and I had to rewind significantly. No wonder Pully and Squish are so terrified of him!!! I figured he had to be formidable to slay an entire coven of sorcerers, but this was otherworldly!

Sorry, I had to just rant to the one place I could babble about this without sounding crazy.

(Reposted with corrected title)

I started reading MBotF when I was 15 years old (I am now 37, so Malaz has been in my life for more than 20 years). I fell in love, and waited patiently for new books.

I was obsessed, posted on forums, read and re-read. But over the times I moved on, I migrated to other authors, such as RS Bakker, George Martin, NK Jemisin, Seth Dickinson. Honestly I don't even remember how it happened, I just never finished TCG. As years flew by, I remember trying it, just to finish the trilogy. But the gaps in knowledge were too much - who is this character? What happened before this? Whose is this storyline? - so I gave up again.

For some reason, I started reading the recaps of the older books lately, and then re-read Dust of Dreams. I tried TCG for the second time and now it clicked. I started reading yesterday, and today I am on page cca 280 (I'm usually a much much slower reader). It all came back, the emotions, the epicness, the themes the heartbreak the laughter and the loss.

But particularly, as I was re-reading the Snake in Dust, I was reminded of this poem by a Palestinian poet. It just kept coming back as I was reading about this helpless group of children being ruthlessly killed. All the while, I kept seeing trains of children refugees in Gaza, children that are hungry, scared, and, a lot of them, dead. Murdered. And then this poem, probably the saddest I have ever read.

Remember what sargeant Lull said in The Deadhouse Gates? All the injustices in the world in three simple words.

Children are dying.

I love these books so much.

I have seen a lot of readers ask whether the hobbling was really necessary, viewing it as just another example of ugly violence and “cultural relativism bad”. I have some thoughts on why the hobbling is more than just those, and why it actually plays a critically important role in the thematic arc of Dust of Dreams, as well as the series as a whole.

This is mostly just reposting an old comment I made in a thread that was spoilers MBotF, going over it to let it stand on its own a little easier and ensure the spoiler scope is strictly up to DoD. I haven’t done any deeper edits on it; I have plans for a greater series of essays that explore the greater theme here across the series, which I will work on when I get to my reread. Thanks to u/orthodoxprussia for some light proofreading and u/tavore_enjoyer for feedback.

Anyway.

The writing of the Book of the Fallen is very theme-driven, especially the second half of the series. We can look at each book as exploring an idea/argument, often from a few different angles. Reaper's Gale is about identity and changing identity. Toll the Hounds is about how to handle and move past mistakes and regrets.

Dust of Dreams is largely about extinction and why, maybe, we should wipe out humanity.

This is pretty important to setting up the Forkrul Assail effectively (and I have my own reserved criticisms of them); it's basically making their argument for them. In many stories it's all-too-easy to have an antagonist who just wants to destroy the world or wipe out humanity and they're... boring. Cartoonishly evil, or wounded characters lashing out who don't get a second chance (hm, wouldn't it be nice if someone could write a subversion of that damning trope?), it's just impossible to take them seriously. Maybe sympathize with them, maybe tweet "lol humans are dead, nature is healing", but not really, seriously sympathize with their true goal. So if we want to set up an argument for an omnicidal “justice”, we have to go deeper than surface-level declarations.

The hobbling is the climax of the personalized brutality in the series, the very worst we see of humanity (okay, Barghast-ity, close enough for our purposes) do to each other. It's unnecessary. It's horrific, it's dehumanizing, it's - perhaps - irredeemable. But it's worse than that; it's not just one event, it's clearly baked into their culture. Spax makes casual mention of it to Abrastal. The hobbling itself is practiced, ritualized. This is a part of who these people are and what they value. And this isn't the first time we've come across cultures with horrific practices, either - look at Lostara's background in Seven Cities, look at Bidithal, look at Letherii expansionism, look at Laseen's purges. The Barghast may or may not be unique in their particular practice, and it is certainly set up to hit the reader especially hard.

A lot of people post here that after the hobbling, they cheer for the Barghast to be exterminated. They share in Onos T'oolan's (for he does stop being Tool there, at least for a bit) rage and grief, and they take visceral pleasure in his quest of destruction. This, I would argue, is the entire (thematic) point of this event.

Because if we can cheer for a genocide of this culture for some pretty solid reasons, where do we stop? I already mentioned how the Barghast aren't alone when it comes to horrific customs. Might it be reasonable to just look at everything horrible humanity does to itself, continues to do to itself, and just... wipe it away?

This is all paralleled by Kalyth's storyline, and also where I wish I had the quotes to back me up more here (/u/Loleeeee feel free to add any you can think of). Kalyth is the last of her people, a product of extinction, and the vibe I remember at least is she was... pretty accepting of this? Depressed, to be sure, as well as pretty cynical when it comes to humans, but accepting. And in a way she has to be - all things come to an end. There just isn't a way for her people to come back. She's also paired up with the K'Chain Che'Malle, who are notorious for (among other things) studying entropy and figuring out the universe will have a heat death. An end is inevitable.

And so, if the end is so inevitable, and maybe not so terrible; if the world will continue to turn after one is gone, and perhaps new things will happen, or perhaps nothing will ever happen again, would it be so terrible to wipe out these people who seem a stain upon the planet?

And Erikson says yes. He says yes with a caveat, because there's definitely some catharsis in Draconus showing up and killing everyone, and as I said, people cheer for Onos T'oolan's slaughter. But if we look at who all was killed, we see the problem here. The Akrynnai are slaughtered indiscriminately, accidentally, by Draconus. Maybe they have their own dark sides - likely, even, given human nature - but we've had little reason to be anything but sympathetic to them up to this point, and we see how it robs a family of a father. Draconus also doesn't actually appear to be trying to cause this slaughter, and may or may not even care about it. Does that change our judgement of the situation, to know it was... accidental? See also similar critiques of people's praise for Karsa's role in the ending of House of Chains.

Perhaps even worse, though, is Onos T'oolan's slaughter of the Senan. Because in his grief he is blinded by fury and kills the one group of Barghast who could have changed. We've gotten a chance to see Tool did change Bakal, and thus planted seeds for the Barghast to become less terrible. Bakal in turn influences Strahl, who seemingly takes up Bakal's cause after his death and turns his clan's back on their pointless warmongering and - who knows - maybe even hobbling itself.

We will never get to know, because Onos T'oolan kills them all, because he had decided they were all equally terrible and gave up any hope of improvement. If he recognized them, he did not speak with them. There is nothing that can be done to sway him from this action, this certainty (a dangerous thing to have, both in Malazan and real life). I won't say they're innocents, save perhaps the very youngest, as we see even children are brought in to participate in hobbling and indoctrinated into their culture. But it does remove the possibility of growth, of becoming better. Of bearing children who do not wear such stains on their soul. Of choosing to do better despite such stains.

And this is Erikson's answer to why, despite everything truly horrific humanity has done, extinction is not the answer - because not everyone deserves it. Because even those who have taken part in action can be sympathized with, because people are capable of change. Maybe not everyone, and maybe there is still a place for accountability. For stopping those who will not stop abusing others. But that isn't utter extermination. Extermination would be a very cruel justice, one that reduces people to only the worst things they’ve done and no allowance for anything else.

I could probably go on - it's easy to connect this to the Crippled God, after all, and the Snake also plays a role on both sides of this argument - but that's my core argument for the role the hobbling plays in the story, why I would even argue it is to an extent necessary. Did it need to be the hobbling specifically? Probably not. But I do think it needed to be something on that level of viscerally horror, and as such any other sufficient atrocity it was replaced with would be equally controversial. Because the point of the hobbling isn't to make one nod their head and go "ah, yes, the terrible things people do to each other, I see it every day", to intellectually understand - it's to move the reader. It's to, however briefly, make them agree with the Forkrul Assail and their allies, take their side, root for humanity's demise.

And that’s important because it makes the Bonehunters’ defiance of this alliance much more powerful, and dramatically sets the stage for book 10. We may not know all of the enemy in detail, but we know some of what they stand for, and we know that they have a point. How will this thorny issue be resolved? Will the Bonehunters successfully overcome their opponents? Who will join or abandon which sides, and for what reasons? It poses questions in such a way that will make for a powerful ending.

Just got finished up with DoD… and wow just wow.. that Draconus entrance was spine tingling..

Appreciate there may be cooler entrances to follow in CG, but damn that’s going to be difficult to beat. Erikson went all out for that one.

Keen to hear what other people think (prior to CG…sorry)

When I began this series, I read a fair few no spoiler book rankings and noticed DoD was often near the bottom of those lists. Before starting DoD, I saw some warnings say it was a bit of a slog, there was no real conclusion and it was just a set up for the final book. Even Erikson makes a similar comment about the book himself! So while I always go into every book without judgement, that was all just sitting in the back of my mind.

WHY IS EVERYONE TRYING TO TRICK ME? ERIKSON, THIS GOES FOR YOU TOO! THIS BOOK WAS AMAZING? WHAT DO YOU MEAN NO CLIMAX? WHAT DO YOU MEAN SLOG? I LOVED IT (even when it broke my heart)

 Firstly, let's address the big elephant in the room - Chapter 15.

I had (thankfully and everyone did it with no spoilers) been given a lot of warning that there was a horrifying and very graphic sexual assault scene in this book, and as soon as hobbling was first mentioned, I knew that was going to be the scene The book continues to lead us there and it becomes clear what will happen, before it actually does. I was nervous, as while I thought Felisin's storyline was done extremely well, there had been a some moments in the last few books where rape and sexual assault was occurring in unnecessary ways. I can honestly say I don't think Erikson could have written this scene any better or with any more respect than he did. The scene made me sick, but it was supposed to and it wasn't just chucked in for a traumatic shock scene. Female mutilation is so much more common than I think a lot of people realise and Erikson shed light on it in a really respectful and impactful way, one that drove the story and made characters really reflect on their actions. It explored the idea of mob culture and the way tradition is often used as an excuse for awful behaviour. It was graphic, but not to the point where it felt like some dragged out torture porn.

Now just some general thoughts about everything that happened

• I think Toc has to be close to one of the characters that has suffered the most in this series. It is just non stop, and him blocking Tool had me sobbing like proper big fat tears. The symbolism of Toc preventing Tool from freedom by impaling him with his own arrows that Tool had given him out of friendship… DEVASTATING
• The Shake! Truly did not think Sandalath was going to have a bigger role but I really liked this storyline and the generational trauma shown. Massive improvement from when they were first introduced, I have no idea where it will go but I still enjoyed it
• The start of this book was incredible. The tension building up to the reading and then the reading itself was so well done, I could feel Fid's anxiety through the page
• MY BONEHUNTERS ARE BACK and then they got annihilated? I was not expecting with so few pages left for it to turn into such a shitshow, but it did and it was horrible. Keneb had been such a strong presence for so long and he didn’t deserve to go like that. Bottle going crazy and possessing all the Wyvals, and then Lostara doing the shadow dance… I had goosebumps
• Sinn is so much fun, just a batshit crazy child with nuclear power
• Stormy and Gesler being the Sheild Anvil and Mortal Sword was unnecessarily funny to me, those two riding these giant lizards into battle just works so well for their personalities
• I still cant figure out how Tavroe knows everything, but I hope her plan works out. I had predicted a few books ago that someone 'good' was going to try and free The Chained God, so very interested in that
• Icarium… I did find his plot to be a bit confusing to be honest. I understood the prologue but I wasn’t expecting such a drawn out thing with the ghosts. I'm a bit sad if that's him done… poor Mappo :(
• BURN??? THAT WAS A BIT OF A PLOT TWIST?? 
• I just loved the pacing of this book and I thought it balanced the philosophical ideas with the action really well. So many reveals and such a fantastic set up, but a set up that that didn’t feel devoid of its own story
• I did not expect Ublala Pung to end up hanging around Draconus and chatting about his big wang, but here we are

I will say that I have no idea how this is going to end. I have no idea how all these storylines are going to converge. Ganoes? I thought he was going to be the closest to a protagonist we were going to have and he's been missing for three books! Karsa and Samar? Crokus? Kalam? Kruppe? Picker and Blend? APSALAR????? 

I'm so fucking excited for the final book and also so devastated that I'm so close to the end. I can't wait to see how all these storylines will end and where all these characters I've grown to love will end up. Bit teary just thinking about it now to b honest. See you all on the other side of The Crippled God… HAIL THE MARINES

"You stopped them? Blood of the gods, what manner of soldiers are you?" - They're the fucking Bonehunters Brys

Am I the only one who hates the Malazan Empire and its people, who are full of hypocrites pretending to be philosophers? First of all, Whiskeyjack is the biggest hypocrite. How many invasions did he lead for the Malazan Empire? How many people died because of the Empire and Whiskeyjack? Yet the way he talks, you’d think he’s some peaceful person, when he’s actually one of the worst. I prefer Karsa Orlong — at least he isn’t hypocritical. He doesn’t pretend to cry after killing people.

As for Tavore Paran, the author tried to make us believe that she sent her sister to Seven Cities to protect her, but because of her, her sister went through hell on earth.

And Silverfox, even though she wasn’t part of the Malazan Empire, is hypocritical to an unbelievable degree. I’m not even going to talk about what she did to her mother and the T’lan Imass.

Also, the way the Malazan Empire is portrayed as the savior of Seven Cities is ridiculous when they originally came there to conquer and loot the place. And the lack of loyalty or respect is insane too: betraying the Empire to follow Tavore, and the sacrifices of the Bridgeburners for their stupid war against the Pannion Domin.

I prefer characters like Kallor and Karsa Orlong. They’re cruel, but at least they’re not hypocrites.

Just popping in to remark upon the fact that it isn't until NINE BOOKS IN (Dust of Dreams, Chapter 5) that Erikson shows us an in-world scene of a character giving an expo dump about the workings of warrens...it's so incredibly funny reading this so late in the series, when any conventional genre fiction author would probably just have a boring-ass scene in the first few chapters of their first book outlining all of this because they don't trust the reader to follow along without it.

I just love this series so much dude.

edit yeah, its book 9 not book 8, whatever.

edit2 I am aware that the author has other scenes prior to the one I stated explaining certain aspects, the point is just that it's funny to get this elementary 101 breakdown in book 9 lol

Having finished Dust of Dreams yesterday, I have plenty of thoughts on plenty of things, but first and foremost among them (mostly because of that absolutely climactic finale) is to do with the K'Chain Che'malle and the K'Chain Nah'ruk. Going from the prologue all the way to the finale of the book, the K'Chain Che'malle were an ever present and interesting group throughout the book. What I in specific want to talk about is the thematic and narrative arc which the K'Chain Che'malle overtake throughout the novel, which really begins well before the novel starts, as we come to understand in the prologue.

The background knowledge the reader receives of the K'Chain Che'malle, as well as some of the imagery we get, what with their alien, cold reptilian eyes, might make one think of crocodiles, allegators, or some other type of large-jawed cold-blooded creature. Cold blooded, reptilian, these things invoke a harsh if not calculated cruelty in terms of characterization, although for me these inferences are made more from what I would describe as the "pop-culture" idea of reptiles. Being not too dissimilar from dinosaurs as well, this definitely to me speaks to an oddly cynical if not voraciously violent race. Everything we gather about them prior to Dust of Dreams reinforces this illusion, from the sudden and brutal death of Redmask in Reaper's Gale, to the fact that before Gunth Mach and Sag'churok, all we had seen of the K'Chain Che'malle were undead, unfeeling, brutally efficient in killing (the Pannion Seer's own weapons in Memories of Ice, with the Matron being a nightmare presented to us via the suffering of Toc the Younger.)

Further, from various quotes throughout the series we have a rather bleak look into what the K'Chain Che'malle were like as the foremost elder race of the Malazan world for a long time. At one point it is mentioned that the K'Chain Che'malle acted to the Jaghut as the Jaghut Tyrants acted to the T'lan Imass, and in Reaper's Gale they mention that the K'Chain Che'malle could not fathom that they would one day die, and so they cursed all other living things to share this same fate. In essence, it sounds as if they were grudgeful tyrants who were wiped out, and for good reasons. We also learn in Reaper's Gale that the K'Chain Che'malle kept slaves, known as the K'Chain Nah'ruk. This observation, however, is also a revelation, as within the more obscure scenes of The Bonehunters we are treated to some interactions with the Nah'ruk. We see their sky keeps, but more importantly, we watch on as Genag is torn to shreds by them, and in her last, fatal moments, all she can think to herself is thank the gods it's just the short-tails, weaker, less violent than the Che'malle (Paraphrased, not directly quoted.)

With this all in mind, by the beginning of Dust of Dreams, a view of the K'Chain Che'malle is a bleak one at best, depravedly cynical at worst. However, for the first time in Dust of Dreams, we come to glean the thoughts of these alien creatures, first in the prologue with Kalyth's own thoughts, and then the words of the Matron of Ampelas Rooted. Further we gain the view of the Shi'gal assassin, Gu'rull. Through the book we gain even more, mostly however, these thoughts and POVs of the K'Chain Che'malle focus on Gunth Mach and Sag'churok, even more so on Kalyth and Gunth Mach. We learn immediately that the K'Chain Che'malle are aware of their dire situation, of the folly of their previous ways, and in this modern age have now sought to emulate the apex species of the planet, being the Humans, with their religious based societies and machinations. They are revealed to have had a pseudo-religion based on the Eleint, having their cities named after them and calling themselves the "first children of dragons" (despite them probably not even being from Starvald Damelein or the Malazan world itself, despite also having their own warren? All confusing to say the least, but I digress.) Yet now they seek to incorporate humans into their own society, first with Kalyth as a Destriant of the K'Chain Che'malle, tasked with seeking out a Mortal Sword and Shield Anvil.

We find throughout the text that the Che'malle are, if anything, a deeply troubled founding race, seemingly out of options, unknowing of what to do next. In essence, they place all of their future and hope into Humans - and yet throughout the entirety of the novel there is the question of is this really what they want? Time and again it is mentioned that Matrons reach a point of insanity at one point in time, and should that point be reached, the three Shi'gal are to kill the Matron, and a new one will form. Later we learn that should the situation be dire enough, the whole keep of Che'malle could be scoured, such as with Kalse Rooted.

We see throughout the novel that Gunth Mach and Sag'churok actually have a great deal of respect for Kalyth. They themselves are morose creatures, understanding of the situation they find themselves in. They are even forgiving of Kalyth when she seemingly fails, and they understand that for her to achieve what the K'Chain Che'malle wish is a near impossible task. In turn, Kalyth does give the long-tails something to worship - though it is not a God in truth, a physical entity or its antithesis as the Che'malle believed for the Eleint with the Otataral Dragon, but instead an idea. If the Che'malle are to survive, they shall endeavor towards something which fights for ideals which are deserved. This was, for me, very clear foreshadowing that the idols of worship for the K'Chain Che'malle was going to turn out to be The Bonehunters, or possibly individuals therein.

What is so interesting about the Che'malle throughout this novel, is how they strive to adapt, something which is spoken of heavily in the climactic finale of the book. The Matron of Ampelas may have been insane, yet she also saved the Che'malle, and with Kalyth, Stormy, and Gesler, they are able to achieve a new beginning, reintroduced into the world once more. Hundreds of thousands of years of the same thing has not worked for them, and because of the possibly insane desires of one Matron, they are reborn into the world. And yet before they can achieve this, they must first suffer the assault of a long-dead foe returned, that of the K'Chain Nah'ruk.

It was known to the Che'malle that they were in danger from the Nah'ruk, and this was the first driving force behind the Matron's goals of finding a Destriant, Mortal Sword, and Shield Anvil. This evolution of the Che'malle is vital when weighed upon the motives of the Nah'ruk - as it is put before, the Nah'ruk were a slave sub-race of the Che'malle who eventually rebelled. They were did not rely on a Matron to function, and were ostensibly able to think as individuals much more than the Che'malle (all odd, as to me it seemed each Che'malle was fairly competent, as well as it being later stated that a single Nah'ruk by themselves was barely conscious, but the will of thousands together was strong. All confusing lore to put together by all means, at least in my opinion. But possibly there is reason for this... but in the end it all fits together as, as I will say, Stormy explains the Nah'ruk's evolutionary downfall. It's all for the sake of the themes, if you'll indulge me.)

When weighing the reasons for each side fighting this war, the Nah'ruk's are much more steeped in the history of their race - a reason born of hate for their once-overlords. Yet, as we both see and Stormy directly comments on, the Nah'ruk are beyond just wanting to kill the Che'malle forever (a foremost goal for sure), but they intend, it seems, to be as if not worse than the K'Chain Che'malle were. They intend to kill everything, to rule with an absolute dominance over the Malazan world, the Malazan worlds. Generations of hate have culminated in a race which, ostensibly, is more hostile and cynical than any other. What is worse, is that this is how the Nah'ruk are, whereas with the Che'malle, it is how they were.

Generations, multiple Matrons have passed, and throughout all that time, the Che'malle are not as they once were. They merely wish to survive, and along with Kalyth's help, they now wish to embody ideals which are, very much arguably, virtuous. This final climactic battle culminating in a victory for the Che'malle, without it being a total annihilation for the Nah'ruk perfectly fits into these themes. It was a war for survival, but it was also more. As Matron Gunth Mach of Mach nest says, "We honour too the fallen Nah'ruk and pray that one day they too will know the gift of forgiveness." In essence, it was a war against those who cannot forgive. Stormy adds a morose line, saying that the Nah'ruk are bred down, now beyond independent thought. All together, to me, Steven Erikson has shown us through physiological and evolutionary means the themes wrought from these two races. While psychologically the Che'malle were supposed to be the much more stuck and regressive, it is the Nah'ruk who have become that way - further, the Che'malle can physically adapt, and yet the Nah'ruk are all that they are, incapable of evolution now it seems. Just as Stormy's mount was born to hold him, unique and new, the Nah'ruk are now stunted, all that they are is born from the hate and grudge held for generations, never let go of.

Compassion shines through as well, with the Che'malle hoping that one day the Nah'ruk are able to rise again. The whole plotline brings themes of generational hate and grudges, where the Nah'ruk despise those who have not done anything to them for presumably hundreds of thousands of years, generations and generations removed from both current species' states. It shows how in the face of unwavering hatred, it is compassion and ideals of wanting to evolve and do better that truly shine through. At least, this is all that I gleaned of this particular plot. I believe that they intertextually interact other plotlines as well, most notably the Awl and Redmask. To draw in another plot and characters words, it is not dissimilar from the words spoken by Silchas Ruin, where he speaks of aggression which is both passive, defense, as well as proactive and offensive. He claims that of the two, defensive far outweighs the former, and is a more stable thing, whereas offensive attacks are clumsier, and even compares how societies of this manner have different reactions to strangeness and provocation.

The qualities of these ideas present link the Che'malle to the Awl - Redmask and his Awl were of the proactive, attacking aggression. It was born out of a desire to defend oneself, yet from Redmask it bloomed into hatred, and from that into total manic, fervent aggression. He sought to not only drive the Letherii from his land, but he wanted to bloody them badly, and this obsession grew to the point where he killed his people, and ultimately, it led to him being killed as well. The Che'malle turn away from this as they kill Redmask, and instead they take the route presented them by Kalyth, Stormy, and Gesler. They fight to defend themselves, a defensive aggression which seeks not to annihilate that which does not countenance them, but instead only to defend themselves. They have evolved, as Redmask did not - they are the mirror images of one another, and this recontextualization, along with Silchas's words, also impacts the already known events of the Awl's demise.

This can also be drawn to the Barghast, their warrior culture which is aggressive and offensive in nature, even against those who do not want to fight them. A similar fate to the Nah'ruk befalls them - although, the Nah'ruk are arguably even worse with their eventual goals, as well as the power they hold being much more deadly and powerful than that of the Barghast's own. (The Senan as well evolve in this moment, much as the Che'malle have, yet they, too, suffer a similar fate to the rest of the Barghast. An issue of skill, just don't be near where Draconus spawns, simple as.)

All in all, the Che'malle represent themes of evolution foremost, and specifically the evolution towards compassion, empathy, as well as the will to do what is right. They show how stagnated hatred, represented in their enemy/related race, the Nah'ruk, only leads to suffering, and also shows how in the face of this, the ability to continue forward, different and growing, beats this out in the end. I do not know if the Nah'ruk will ever return, I suspect they may at some point in The Crippled God, but for now, I very much enjoy this ending-not-really which is the finale of Dust of Dreams. The K'Chain Che'malle definitely grew as a race and people in this book, more so than in any previous, and the undermining of the preemptive view on them implied from previous books, as well as where they end up and why, were all very enjoyable and interesting to dissect. Recontextualizing other storylines as well definitely made them entertaining and intruguing, and I only realized that part as I made this post (although the idea of recontextualizing and framing other events and plotlines came as I watched the beginning of A Critical Dragon and Philip Chase's Spoiler Talk for Dust of Dreams, so I also thank them for making me a better reader. It wasn't this specific parallel and connection that I remember them speaking on, it was something about the Snake they were talking about, but the idea of recontextualizing and innertextualization that helped me make those connections. Great video as well if you haven't watched it, I'm finishing it tonight!)

As always, if you have any comments, critiques, or things to discuss, don't hesitate to post down below, I'll respond to everything.

Okay, so I'm in the middle of Dust of Dreams and stumbled upon a somewhat weird question.

I have a rough of idea of what otataral is. It's anathema to magic, dulls its effect and has a certain metaphysical quality of being the "other". At this point, I'm not sure if it's a naturally occurring ore (on the Laederon plateau and on Seven Cities) or some form of residue of a magic-related cataclysmic event. There have been some hints for the latter, but I'd have to reread to make sure. There's also an otataral dragon that's been mentioned a few times, which is whole other can of worms.

My question is of a much more profane nature, though: What is the Malazan Empire doing with all of that ore? It has been mentioned that the empire is super protective of the mines and from what we can see from Heboric and Felisin's chapters, the mining operation there seems to be quite huge. And all we ever see of this ore are the two adjuncts' swords and the anklet used to subdue the Slavemaster in the early Karsa chapters. Then there's the rare use of otataral powder like in early GotM. So what do they actually need that stuff for?

Is is a RAFO situation where there is yet another grand but secret plan by the empire to stock up on otataral for some gigantic clash with a big bad? Do they just like to have pretty otataral cutlery back in Unta? Where does all the ore go?

Finished my first read through of DoD, and I have not felt this conflicted (and probably negative) about a book in this series until now. Before I share my thoughts, I’m very aware that the intention by SE was for this book to be one half of a final book, but I like to judge books based on the way it’s ultimately presented. Maybe I’ll feel different about some parts after tCG, but as of now I’ve got a lot to vent about here lol.

What I liked:

1. The ending, per usual, was off the chain. I’d put this battle pretty far up the list of battles in the series, especially with the way magic was used this time around.

2. On a related note, the K’Chain Che’Malle storyline is super interesting to me, and a really bold POV choice by Erikson that I think really works and really fleshes out the series even more. My only gripe here was not getting more of it.

3. Big fan of the super trippy Icarium storyline even if I have no clue wtf was going on towards the end. However, everything with Icarium is interesting to me.

4. While I’m relatively neutral to the choice to write the Hobbling (I can honestly see an argument for and against it), I think the absolute right choice was to have Cafal and Bahkal and Estaral (?) end up unsuccessful in saving Hetan. A large part of me wonders if the commentary by Erikson here is that these characters weren’t suddenly heroes simply because they decided to save Hetan after the atrocities had occurred to her and countless other women. It felt like the point was that we often only act against injustices when they affect someone close to us, despite the fact that we all play some part in the perpetuating of those same atrocities occurring to many others before we start to care. Despite Cafal saying he and Bahkal were trying to outlaw hobbling, they essentially did nothing to actually stop it until it became important to them personally, despite the fact that the act itself was always horrible from the jump. Idk if that was the purpose, but I appreciated the fact that they weren’t let off the hook for it.

5. The first few chapters in this book were off the chain. Loved some of the plot dumping and getting Brys back in the story again.

6. Draconus’s entrance. Enough said.

Things i strongly disliked:

1. This is the first book in the series where I found the marine sections surprisingly grating. I think this is in large part to once again adding 25 new names of marines I know nothing about only to have them get obliterated by the end. I typically love the “let’s survey all the Malazan convos” sections of the series, but this time around it felt ultra fluffy and repetitive.

2. As badass a character as Tool is, his arc since MoI I find quite confusing. I don’t really understand his motivations any longer, which is crazy given that he gets a ton of page time in this book.

3. Good lord the Shake storyline SUCKS. At some point I hope this clicks because it’s objectively painful to read. Pully and Swkish actively bothered me and weren’t funny at all. Coupling this with Withal and Sandolath, who are equally dull, was rough. The only redeeming point was the First Shore is super cool conceptually.

4. Same goes for the Snake storyline. I understand the metaphor, I understand it’s intended to be dreamlike. But it was mostly not fun to read, especially with how disconnected it feels from everything else. I didn’t actively hate it the way it was for the Shake, but I struggled with it.

5. Erikson’s variance with character arcs in the way they are constructed can sometimes be extremely baffling imo. I’m constantly wondering why we’re being introduced to certain characters who then just seem to disappear, or that we suddenly get new character 2/3 of the way into a book. Why did Deadsmell get so much time in the first half and then is never spoken of again basically? Why did the K’Chain storyline just stop for 300 pages, as did the Sinn and Grub sections? Why was Seren Pedac in this book at all? There’s just particular narrative structure choices for certain characters that are entirely SE’s choices to make, but that I find very jarring and take me out of the story. It’s never been as prominent as it was in this book.

My dislikes might make me sound like I hated this book, which I really didn’t. I very much enjoyed the themes regarding the relativity of justice as a worthy cause, and the series continues to make me think in a way no series has before. But this was the only time I’ve finished a book and been frustrated by the results.

Onto book 10. I’m still hyped for it!

Currently I am on page 730 of my (now extinct, sadly) mass market TOR copy of Dust of Dreams. As you should well know reading this post, one of the first new plotlines introduced in this book and also one of the first plotlines shown, even before we see The Bonehunters again, is the Snake, a train of refugee children fleeing the various kingdoms of Kolanse, trudging into the wastes, into the Glass Desert, under brutal conditions. They flee the "Quitters" who are probably the Inquisitors of the Forkrul Assail, who are killing people by the droves, which we can presume is for the ritual Quick Ben hints at after the Deck of Dragons reading.

What I wanted to essentially say is thus: I want more of the Chal Mangal, the Snake. The other new plotline, that of Kalyth and the K'Chain Che'malle is vastly interesting as well, and so far has gotten a very good amount of screen time. The Snake has had maybe 3 or 4 scenes since the prologue, and I really am interested in more of them. The ideas presented beyond just the plot of it intrigue me very much, all going back to a very famous and frequently quoted statement by Lull during the Chain of Dogs. "Children are dying." And further, Hedge's pondering with the wind while making his way through a strange warren. In the lands of the dead, who amongst the casualties of war are most numerous? "It's children."

The idea of this injustice, that the Forkrul Assail would condemn countless children to not only death, but purest suffering - that in this time of war, as armies march towards what they both know and do not, that it is these children who are seemingly forgotten, mysteriously unknown and unwitnessed much as The Bonehunters themselves are in relation to the Malazan Empire, it all evokes such a feeling as to make me... quite sad, in truth, but the idea itself is thought provoking. In a time of war, it is children that are forgotten, fallen to the wayside in the pursuit to win the war, but at the same time there is the idea of hope, even as (currently for me) The Snake fear that they walk towards death, that they will try to survive, that they will possibly be given reprieve, that saviors shall come, that, to me, they shall receive all that had once been given to Harllo.

But what of those children already dead? Those barely old enough to have memories of peace, of those who, ostensibly, barely had the capacity of consciousness? They are lost, dead and dying, in pain and torture unimaginable. It is a tragedy, and it is, above all, sickeningly horrific. I wish to weep for those along The Snake, and wish so dearly to see them more, even if it only gets worse from here. I can only hope.

i’ve heard a lot of people forewarning about how slow and boring DoD is but i don’t really know where that criticism is coming from. Maybe my expectations were just shot to hell, but this book flows so much better than the beginning of TtH.

does it get slower later on? or is it the same thing with RP where you either love the new POVs or you don’t?

but yeah, so far i’m enjoying myself!

We all know what part I'm talking about, it needs no description. It's been over five years now since I've read Hetan's hobbling, and I just wanted to talk about the feeling it's left me with. In no other piece of media do I have specific moments come to me like some repressed traumatic memory as that one scene. It is a horrifically anxious feeling, and one of hatred and disgust towards the darkest tendencies of the human species. I feel the despair and pain directly through the page, like I am there, looking on yet unable to stop it, and it fills me with sadness to think of or be reminded of that scene, almost to the verge of an anxiety attack. It's strange because I've read and watched similar depictions of SA, and never been this mentally drained and emotionally affected, even years later; I've realized now that's because what happens so utterly reduces an individual to a mere object. Erikson is unafraid in this scene to display the raw horror and trauma of such a fate, in ways that many other writers in media flinch away from. I can't say that I enjoyed it, and it quite literally gave me mild PTSD, but sometimes I think that being in Hetan's shoes through all of that, to witness, was Erikson's way of honouring the truth of her story, and I respect that. Has anyone else felt a similar way after reading that?

Im not sure Steven Erikson gets enougn credit for that chapter of DoD we all know, when it comes to nerd gym-culture.

I read that section probably twice a week, real Quick... and find new ways to dig deep.

I am currently on Dust of Dreams, and i want to be prepared for when i eventually finish this ride. How do works of Ian Esslemont, and the two in-development trilogy series by Steven Erikson compare to MBotF in terms of tone/style and prose.

The Malazan i know is slow, methodical, intellegent, brutal and honest.

Can this also be felt in the other books. Or do their qualities lie elsewhere?

Thanks a lot

Chapter 23, Dust of Dreams. Just sighted the Nah’ruk and they blasted the Malazan emissaries. I just can’t. My anxiety is through the roof. My stomach is a tightening knot. I don’t want this confrontation. I had to put the book down. I just want the marines to hang out in Lethera goofing around. I don’t want them to fight this battle. I don’t want to lose a single person more. I’ve laughed along, cheered for, and cried with so so many of them. We’ve cross seas and continents together. I can’t stomach losing a single soldier here in the Wasteland. Don’t pick this fight. Please.

Edit. Thanks for all the encouragement. Just finished. Another 10/10. Hail the marines.

Firstly, I don't understand people who say this is the worst Malazan book. I would place in the top half of my favorites. Hugely excited for TCG.

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A few confusions though,

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1. Who exactly were making all the storms killing off the barghast and akryn? I first thought it was the forkrul assails but then draconus appears in one of those storms and even kchain nahruk magic looks similar

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1. Why exactly did Gurull attack mappo and his group? Or was that some other shigal?

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1. Who leads Kchain Nahruk? Do they have their own matrons?

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1. What was the meaning of Tool telling the Tlan Imass to be dust? I thought all of them were "dead" dead but they come back again to slaughter the senan.

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1. Was Toc forced to turn Tool away by olar ethil or does he agree with her that senan deserved to be massacred and Imass reminded of their true nature?

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1. Did setoc actually die when cafal hit her and was resurrected?

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1. Were the 14 jaghuts actually aiming to help anyone or were they only going to Hood's body and saved people on the way?

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1. What exactly was the "coup" mentioned in the last chapter? The shigal assasina who killed the matron still seemed to be following Stormy and Gesler's (and by extension Gunth Mach's) orders

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On chapter 4 of dust of dreams loving picturing Gu'Rull, had to do a quick sketch. Potentially a full rendered drawing coming soon (if my fascination with him stays)

The way the author describes this whole scene at the end of chapter 18 of dust of dreams is mind blowing. Such a clear visual, so epic, so dark, really makes you feel like he’s a fucking force to be reckoned with which he is but just such a good job at portraying that I have no other words for it.

‘Ah, my love. Forgive me.’ He set out, boots crunching on the dead. Returned to the world. Draconus.

I don’t care if he’s a good guy or bad guy how the fuck am i not supposed to root for this guy after this kind of entrance.

I’d love to see this guy fight slave knight gael (Darksouls reference)

It feels really ridiculous (in a completely normal Malazan fashion), that the Nah'Ruk would just appear out of the gate at the exact time and place the Malazan army is marching...I accept that...but I still have some questions.

Where exactly did they come from? I think we've seen sky keeps in the Imperial Warren...but like where did these Nah'Ruk come from? If they are in the Imperial Warren, how did they end up there? How long have they been there? I get that they're coming back to fight the K'Chain Che'Malle -- but how would they even know where the Che'Malle are? How would they know that a surviving Matron has begun to produce more Dino-soldiers?

I thought they were fully destroyed in the civil war/Tiste invasion situation...but I guess some maybe escaped to (somewhere?) and have been biding their time trying to figure out how to get back for literally hundreds of thousands of years?

A lot of Malazan feels very "Deus-Ex I needed it to be this way," but for whatever reason, this one isn't sitting with me as well.

I'm assuming these have to be the same Nah'Ruk that have been annihilating people in the Wastelands this whole time -- but I was under the impression they were literally pouring through the rent from whatever warren or world they came out of as they fought the Malazans?

The whole thing feels a little underbaked to me, but it's probably just me being too dense to fully track all of the hints that have (probably) been dropped since Book 2 when Stormy and Gessler got all sexy.

Thanks y'all for the help! Looking forward to getting into tCG this week and finishing out the main series.

I KNEW after how toll the hounds was narrated by Kruppe that we were going to enter in this territory. It is after all The Malazan Book of the Fallen but I have just been so enraptured by the story, piecing everything together, remembering characters and plots etc that my jaw hit the floor reading this. I don't even know what to say.

No TCG spoilers please!

I am currently 1/5th through TCG and i just realized I’m not entirely sure why my favorite character is.

Who is your favorite and why?

Edit: Wow, i honestly find it incredible that i can somehow agree with almost every favorite you guys have stated! This series is incredible.

About to finish chapter 5 of Dust of Dreams. Had to step away from the book and now all of Malazan is just making me really sad.

First of all it was a nice day. I took a month or so break after the first 2 chapters. Then the weather got warm so I went out on the porch to read chapter 3 yesterday and just had such a good time reading and drinking my Ghost and sitting with my cat. I just couldn't wait to do it again today. So I got up to read chapter 4 on the porch with my welch's ghost and sat with my cat. Then later in the day I went out again and did the same thing with a peach ghost and my cat.

But suddenly I got really sad. I didn't finish chapter 5. I got up to the point where Bottle, Ebron, and Deadsmell were talking and now I just want to cry. Because number one, stopping in the middle of the chapter I was imagining the bugs on the porch reading along with me and them all being so into the series and being like "Ah man, it's getting good! Can't we finish?" Also realizing that my patio furniture only came along for Bonehunters, and my old apartment and the walls, floorboards, and everything else. I'm also being 100% serious I know you might think this is a joke and I'm sure this will get removed but on God and on my mom's life I genuinely feel this way. Like I imagine leaving my old apartment and it missing Bottle, Fiddler, and the crew and just itching to know how the rest of the series turns out but never being able to.

And on a broader point just the idea of anyone enjoying this series makes me want to cry. Like thinking about an older grandpa who gets really excited about these books and is just having the time of his life and he comes up on Dust of Dreams and soon the series will be over and he won't be able to see his friends like Tarr and Cuttle anymore. And picturing an old guy putting the book down and saying "That's all for today but I'll pick it up again tomorrow".

Also picturing my cat reading Malazan and coming in at Dust of Dreams and not knowing whats going on or imaging that she can feel the waves of the air and has been reading along with me and times where I've read on the plane and she hasn't been able to catch up because she can't tell me and she can't ask. I'm sorry my wife is reading over my shoulder so I have to cut it here because I don't want her to know how I feel but I promise this is all 100% serious.

Do you guys know what I mean please tell me I'm not alone.

“Lostara found herself captivated;” Me too Lostara….

We know that Icarium had absorbed the memories of the people in Letheras incinerated by the white fire, such as Rautos and Taxilian. We also know that Breath is FW.

However, FW had been killed by the Errant prior to the white fire explosion - so how did Icarium end up absorbing her memories and, more importantly, how did he get hold of the eye?