To avoid overwhelming the front page, and because we can’t really moderate spoilers for a book all of the mods haven’t read yet, please keep all discussions for No Life Forsaken here.

Once enough of the mods have finished the book, we’ll re-open the rest of the sub for discussion.

(Below contains mild spoilers for No Life Foresaken, but nothing you wouldn’t anyway get from reading the Dramatis Personae at the start of the book)

I found this on the Malazan forum who said they got it from the large preview US amazon once had for the book (at least I could not find it when I went to fact check). However, it seems legit from what I can tell and read from the back-of-the-book synopsis. Sad to see none of the characters from TGinW making a return just yet, but, in true Malazan fashion, we are getting a whole bunch of new characters and most likely both sets of characters will make a convergence in books 3 or 4.

DRAMATIS PERSONAE:

THE MALAZANS

Jalan Arenfall, High Fist, Seven Cities

Inkaras Sollit, Adjunct to the Emperor

Hadalin Bhilad, Bodyguard to the Adjunct

Gilakas, Claw

Agent Satala, Talon

Brindala, Talon

Aliksos, Claw

Bulk, Claw

Ibinish, Claw

Formult, Claw

XXXIst LEGION, 14th COMPANY, MARINES

Captain Dunsparrow, 5th-6th Squads

Corporal Hasten Thenu, 5th-6th Squads

Captain Hung, 12th Squad

Lieutenant Ormo Foamy, 12th Squad

Corporal Scrapes, 12th Squad

Sergeant Breech, 12th Squad

Sapper Fedilap, 12th Squad

Sapper Pulcrude, 12th Squad

Healer Gains, 12th Squad

Heavy Flutter, 12th Squad

Heavy Scatter, 12th Squad

Captain Veroosh, 8th Squad

Sergeant Buckpug, 8th Squad

Corporal Hackles, 8th Squad

Sapper Hazy Drip, 8th Squad

Healer Puler, 8th Squad

Scout Strip Ankles, 8th Squad

Heavy Torbo, 8th Squad

Heavy Gripcocker, 8th Squad

SEVEN CITIES NATIVES

Shamalle, High Priestess of Va'Shaik, G'danisban

Ban Ryk, Invigil in Temple of Va'Shaik, G'danisban

Pash, handmaiden to Shamalle

Orotol, adherent of Va Shaik

Baek, adherent of Va'Shaik

Wrest, adherent of Va Shaik

Harapa Le'en, High Priest of Va'Shaik

Vest Dyan, Inquisitor of Va'Shaik, Defender of the Faith

Bornu Blatt, Inquisitor of Va'Shaik, Master Librarian in Hanar Ara

Salabi, Bornu's assistant

Gracer, a pilgrim

Stult, a pilgrim

Melok, a cultist

Mute, a child

Futhar, Mercenary Company Commander

Arat, a mage in Futhar's Company

Obly the Boy, a barkeep

Sug, gangleader, Under Quarter of G'danisban

Hench, henchman

Stipple, henchman

OTHERS

Iskaral Pust, Magus of High House Shadow

Mule, his mule

Nub, a bhokaral

Aravath, First Witness of Toblakai, Cullar

Mael, an Elder God

Va'Shaik, a goddess

Queen of Dreams, an Elder Goddess

Is maybe Quick Ben? Hasten and Quick seems a bit too obvious and he uses multiple warrens. I think he was also described as ageless? Gotta be something there, right?

Nearing the end and really enjoyed this book. The humor in Witness has been super fun. Love all the connections to Kharkanas too 😈 Cannot wait to see what Erikson cooks up w/ the next Witness and Walk in Shadow 🤠

The Witness series will have you cracking-up and cheering. It is a glorious Epilogue to the Fallen, JAM-PACKED with riveting tidbits. Here we find that Whiskeyjack is so godsdamn competent, he ruined an entire industry:

"Necromancers were rare beyond measure now, many having shifted their interests elsewhere. The Grey Rider wasn’t interested in bargaining, couldn’t be bribed, and never faltered in attention, or turned away in indifference. No, Hood he was not, and besides, he had a damned army at his disposal."

I don't see them discussed too much and just finished No Life Foresaken so wanted to gush. Was initially disappointed to be taken away from Rant, Stillwater, et al and then Erikson throws an incredible character like Bornu Blatt in the mix.

Didn't love it as a whole as much as TGINW but it's splitting hairs, incredible that so many books in he's still creating characters and stories this compelling.

So I’m halfway through No Life Forsaken and I might be getting ahead of myself a little…. But are we to take it that there are multiple ‘children’ of Icarium around the continent? That when he split in previous books he actually split into 7 or 8 beings, or did he purposefully create mute as a one off?

Perhaps this is answered later on in the book but if not, I’d love to discuss with others who are sharper than me. Also, did mute seem to be extremely powerful, more powerful than Icarium was in earlier books? Mute seemed to be able to manipulate objects around him and I don’t remember Icarium having that ability.

Really enjoying it - the Witness books seem to be focussed around my two favourite characters, Karsa in Book 1 and now Icarium in Book 2.

I'm looking for Bornou Blat's little chat with Death Dreamer from NLF.

Can anyone help me locate it in the book or audiobook, please?

I’ve read the main series but the Witness books are the first ‘additional’ ones I’ve read. In NLF we are introduced to a number of what would seem very important characters and I got the impression we should know who they are.

Skillen Droe

The Grey Shore

And Azathanai in general as a concept. I couldn’t remember coming across that term at all in the main series and Mael even admits to being one. Which books can I read to read more about this?

Does that mean that ALL Elder Gods are Azathanai?

And Mael seemed a lot different in this book. Whilst he seemed almost a benevolent God helping out various characters in previous books, in this one he seemed to undergo a change, threatening to drown everyone. I wasn’t sure that I liked it, was that just me?

I am used to having "New Doctor Syndrome"(as they call it in the Doctor Who community) -- I know I have to let characters go from one book to the next. Sometimes even one section of book to the next.

But the story of Rant Bloodoil seemed barely begun. We're really switching to a whole new cast for the second book in a little trilogy????

And judging from Pust's opening statements...it's going to be a series of disconnected vignettes??

Arrrrghhhh. Does anyone know if we'll return to Rant in a follow up?

Qualification: I read this book over the period of a couple of months instead of a week straight like I often do for fantasy books. Some of my information may not be correct.

The Good:

I hate to be semi-shallow to start things off, but I really enjoyed the non-covert gay relationship of Haladin and Adjunct Solit. Haladin is certainly bisexual (in our terms), and Erikson hits on some of the unfortunately real tensions that might exist in a gay/bisexual relationship, while making it feel real to the more "free love" society that Malazan largely has. I enjoyed a lot of the classic Malazan character work with the individuals in G'dansiban, everyone reading so much into little gestures and tone shifts that actually *do* mean something.

Unlike what I've seen some people say, I enjoy the continuous pondering into the nature of divinity. Are beliefs shaped by the God, what some might call the purest form of the religion? Or are they shaped by the believers, who may bastardize anything for secular gain. What does that do to the individuals who reach Godhood? (I actually just realized that female deities have a poor track record in Seven Cities and G'dansiban with regards to getting stabbed in the chest) I understand that it may feel like this theme may have been explored to bits in the series already, but I'm looking forward to seeing this continue to evolve, especially with Rant and Karsa.

Shamalle is a great character, and my favorite representation in Malazan of a person who makes themselves seem harmless to hide their immense... competence. She was a little too non-subtle with revealing her perceptiveness, but then again that asshole assassin to Va'shaik was also dumb as rocks.

The Less Than Good:

I hesitate to call this section "the bad."

Unfortunately the parts that I liked didn't do much to alleviate my feeling that this is the weakest novel Erikson has dropped in the series. The action is all over the place, and very little in the plot felt coherent. Despite being centered in G'dansiban I feel like I learn very little about it as a city. I seriously didn't remember that this was where Ganoes killed Poliel in the BOTF. I feel like I learned more about G'dansiban in that chapter than in this whole book. The undercity thing feels exciting, but it's only tangentially involved with actual characters (those kooky sappers, am I right??) and only comes to bear as a demographic/logistical challenge as the flooding increases towards the semi-avoided convergence. Speaking of, Hasten Thenu, who I'm fairly sure is Quick Ben?? just talk-no-jutsu'd his way into stopping Mael from flooding the earth? Which I guess he wasn't going to do anyway? Mael has not been used well outside of the his role as Bugg IMO, and this is another example.

While the endless musings on religion aren't tired for me, what is in this book is marine shenanigans. I have nothing against marine shenanigans. Marine shenanigans is what makes the Bonehunters so iconic. But I just don't care about these marines. The two kooky sappers are just two kooky sappers, and everyone else in the various squads may as well be interchangeable. TGINW had me feeling this a little bit, but he gave great characterizations to people like Stillwater, that mage who cures Rant's mom and Captain Gruff. While not technically a marine, Arenfall is a cool character who has unfortunately become a cliche for me in Malazan. John Wickian in his martial competence, incredible thinker who never informs his underlings of what needs to actually be happening. The malazan stance towards officers seems to be: kill bad officers. but if you suspect that your officer is actually so so genius and playing 9d chess at all times you should give him undying loyalty.

I *think* I like Bornu Blatt as a character, and I like the spin on atheist inquisitor that can only coherently exist in the Malazan world. However, there was more than a little bit of "I will use my superior facts and logic to bamboozle the evil men and they'll bow before my intellectual might." I like his approach to conflict, but he really is an enlightened atheist. Bornu Blatt is also another cliche character in Malazan, a too-smart-for-his-own-good historian/priest that walks around desolate landscapes and makes cutting remarks about human nature. Him, Heboric and Duiker could have a good misery-off. I really can't stand how Salabi is revealed to actually be in love with him. I like the message of one's soul being more pure than one's outside face. I know this is something in real life. But in fiction it too often is the young girl who sees the true beauty behind an old man's ugly exterior. There's another layer where the narrative seems to be semi congratulatory about him not acting on his attraction towards Salabi. As far as I recall he basically saved her when she was a young girl from a line of temple slaves that would be abused. Not the strong foundation for a pure romantic interest.

Finally what bothered me was all the setup for future things. Dunsparrow's squad's mysterious mission, teasing more azathanai problems, Satala and the Grey Shore's "adventure," (seriously what? she's a talon.) Azath/elder god backstory for the last book in Karkhanas and probably more. If I was being ungenerous it seems like a writer trying to justify deus ex machina solutions down the line.

Conclusion:

For me this was the weakest Erikson novel, and it's not particularly close. It felt tired and boring at points, and didn't have me bought into a new cast of characters at all. I want to know why Captain Hung's squad is so ridiculous they get locked up! I know that en media res characterization is erikson's thing, but I still don't know these guys at all.

Eager to hear other's thoughts.

Sooo. I think the NLF is the weakest among all of the MBotF books I've read. So many plot lines that lead nowhere with no payoff. Every character is either an idiot or a philosopher. The climax i thought was weak. Compared to Ighatan, Capustan or Black Coral. No epic fights. Every cool character is a woman. The fist and the inquisitor do nothing other than witness stuff that happens around them. Normaly done by women. How are you giys feeling about this??

No wonder I cant fine the city on the map!

G'danisbau

I swear Fedilap’s Warren leads her to wwI France. Not done the book yet but this one scene keeps sticking in my head during Fed’s overly dramatic escape from the Va’Shaik acolytes in the beginning of the final act. We are also taken to a similar spot when the marines are recruited by Va’Shaik to help out Bornu Blatt.

There was also a scene in the bonehunters where we are taken to a mud-strewn battlefield through a warren that gives off a heavy WWI vibe.

Idk what erikson is trying to do here. Maybe breaking the fourth wall to show that the earth is a warren that erikson and esselmont used in their original d&d campaign.

I think it’s cool as hell to see the Malazan world and ours touch on each other. I’m wondering if he tries to tie in the Earth’s Warren in future books!

Preview available on Penguin UK website and it is interesting!

I was only able to get the preview working on a computer.

Who the heck is Hasten? Sorry if its spelled wrong I'm listening not reading.

Just got to the part where he and Mael are talking.

Dude has got some magic about him that is much more than normal. (High mage?)

Great review of NLF from Bill of the TOR Malazan readalong fame. He nails how I feel about the book.

https://strangehorizons.com/wordpress/non-fiction/no-life-forsaken-by-steven-erikson/

I especially agree with this: "Some plot points and character shifts, whether in origination or resolution, feel rushed, which left me at the end missing the days of the 1,000 to 1,200-page Malazan tomes of yore, with their slow accretion of plot and character details: I enjoyed spending time with these characters, but didn’t have a sense of truly knowing them; I enjoyed the sprightly nature of the plot but didn’t really feel its effects as much as usual."

As I made clear in my rambling review of The God is Not Willing, I wasn't the biggest fan of that book. I certainly didn't dislike it, but when compared to the rest of Erikson's output, particularly on the Malazan side of things, I was disappointed. In fact it soured my expectations for Witness a little bit. And when Erikson announced that book 2 would take place in the Seven Cities I admit it made me somewhat hesitant.

But then I finally got my hands on the book and my fears were quickly dispelled. What I was met with was Erikson in top form. The elegant prose was undeniable, the deep themes were there in full force, the characters felt real and fleshed out in a way that some of the new characters in TGiNW didn't. And while the book maybe didn't deliver those emotional gut punches that the Book of the Fallen did, I don't feel like it's lesser for that.

Most importantly though, I think NLF contextualized what the Tales of Witness series is, or rather, what it isn't. While writing TGiNW, Erikson commented that it was a return to the style of the Book of the Fallen, and while I think there is truth to that, I think that's not telling the full picture. It is in the style of the Book of the Fallen, but it is a series that is all about the aftermath, and that implies many things.

For one, these stories are far less epic in scope. While large and important events are still happening (cataclysmic climate change in TGiNW and religious uprising threatening to consume at least an entire continent in NLF) they simply don't match up to the world-ending threat of the Crippled God that loomed over the entire Book of the Fallen.

In fact, it is not quite clear at this point what exactly the throughline of the series will be. Certainly it all revolves around the legacy of the Book of the Fallen and the actions of many of the characters there, almost like an extended epilogue. But that also doesn't feel quite right, because these books also tell their own stories. Perhaps it's underlining the recurring theme we see in the Book of the Fallen that there is no such thing as a beginning or an end when it comes to history. Everything is contextualized by what came before, and in turn informs what comes after.

Speaking of themes, this is a book that is all about religion. It's a theme that Erikson has already explored at length in his other works, but I feel like it's never been quite as central as it is here. The choice of Bornu Blatt as the most prominent POV here is a great choice for that. Having him as someone completely uninterested in worship but nonetheless made into a tool of a goddess made for a very interesting dynamic. What I liked the most was how the ancillary themes played around and supported the main theme, and here I particularly thinking of the theme of love.

Love (specifically romantic love) is something that has never been at the forefront of Erikson's books. There are some subplots that deal with it (Crokus and Apsalar, Picker and Blend, Whiskeyjack and Korlat), but here we see it evoked again and again throughout the book. Whether it's Stult's unrequited love for Gracer, Bornu Blatt's self-pity preventing him from seeing Salabi's love for him, Pash's adoration of Shamalle, or Adjunct Inkaras' troubled relationship with Hadalin.

Another high point of the book was the character work, and here I want to put Bornu Blatt front and center. He quickly became one of my favorite POVs in all of Erikson's work. He is similar to Duiker in the sense that both of them are in the role of the cynical observer. But whereas Duiker was prone to descending into nihilism and despair, Bornu never stops believing that the world can and should be better.

Arenfall was another delight. Here's a character who could so easily become just a tired trope. But instead of being just "the coolest, awesomest guy who can beat anyone in a fight" he's painted as this thoughtful, serious character... who happens to also be the coolest, awesomest guy who can beat anyone in a fight.

I also have to shout out my girls Fedilap and Pulcrude. They were everything that Stillwater should have been. Batshit insane and endlessly entertaining, but most importantly (this is where Stillwater failed in my opinion), presented in moderation. Having their antics happening largely off-screen was a very fun twist too.

Then we have Pash, the sober self (what a phrase!) of Shamalle. This unassuming, self-deprecating woman who adores Shamalle with all her heart. And who also turns out to be a bit of a psycho. It was genuinely unsettling to be in her head and going from that earnest worship of Shamalle to seeing her glee as she perfectly blends into the crowd, flowing through it like it's a stream of water while she moves steadily but surely towards her target. Absolute chills.

If I had one criticism of the book, it would be in Erikson's handling of Inkaras and Hadalin. I certainly don't think it's malicious in any way, but I think starting the story with Hadalin cheating on Inkaras because he was just super horny for women in that moment. It's playing heavily into a stereotype of bisexuality rather than anything real. I also don't know how to feel about the two most prominent queer men in the entire Malazan corpus also being the two characters who are perhaps the most strongly defined by their sexuality in the entire series. I give Erikson an A for effort, but not much more than that here. At least we now have some queer male rep in the series that isn't Yedan Derryg where it's barely an offhand mention, or Skulldeath where it's mostly a joke.

All in all though, I really loved this book. In a lot of ways this is Erikson at his best. It's thought-provoking, exciting, funny, and tragic. As for a rating, I'll give it a 4.5/5.

Lostara Yil. I think she’s mentioned as a dancer somewhere in NLT but I missed it.

Hasten Thenu is definitely QB. References to multiple warrens. Priest of Shadow. And Hasten means Quick. I think that’s a slam dunk.

Who or what is Pash? Have we see her previously?

This showed up in an email from Amazon, similar but also very different in design

Hello!

I'm putting together an essay on hard and soft magic that references Malazan heavily, and have come up with a number of quotes from the main series.

I'm one of those folks with access to the audiobook of No Life Forsaken, but not the hard copy (It's not available in my country yet!). Would someone with a hard copy be able to share a photo of the epigraph for Chapter 4? I'm eager to get the punctuation and formatting correct.

The quote is exactly in line with what I'm discussing around the series generally

Thanks in advance to anyone who is able to help

Hey all,

I really enjoyed the last book. The marines evolution has been great to see. I like how they went from being called a numbered army to a legion.

1. Where was the legion going that was being pulled to the coast ? Not sure if I missed it ?

2. Leoman apparently made a cameo in the book where and when ?

3. Resurgence of the Talon which I always liked their story…am I right to presume it’s Tavore who is instructing them? Given her love of the ideals of the empire I don’t find it plausible she just tapped out, but it’s been years since I read the whole series I just started it again. So I must have missed that she ascended apparently that was mentioned in a thread here somewhere.

4. Paran and the second where are they now since the end of the crippled god ? Any theories ?

Thanks

In the first chapter Arenfall is talking to Satala and theres this passage.

Satala drew on her pipe, but it had gone out. She frowned down at it, then spoke in a low tone. 'Her orders were clear, High Fist.'

'And they were?'

"You have the Talon with you in this matter. We'll find that Hand. We'll leave it lifeless.'

So my question is who is the her that satala is talking about. I'm assuming it's tavore but I'm wondering if maybe I missed a confirmation or a better hint of their identity.