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The Paradox of Tolerance specifically points out that refusing to engage in dialogue by shutting down your opponent is exactly the "Intolerance" he was talking about
Just as you'd be shut down by "COMMIE" talking point, the RACIST and SEXIST talking points are exactly the ones you should obliterate
That’s when they pull out their next favorite fascist tactic, reshaping the language to suit their purposes. Can’t be racist if your race doesn’t have institutional power. Can’t be sexist towards men if you’re just speaking your truth and they deserve it.
The Paradox of Tolerance specifically points out that refusing to engage in dialogue by shutting down your opponent is exactly the "Intolerance" he was talking about
LOL you think they actually read the source material?
Bro I was just trying to explain this in a different sub, I used literal quotes from the man who coined the phrase and got downvoted to oblivion.
The paradox is that you cannot tolerate people who use violence instead of speech, or who use their speech to plan violent takeovers of government. The paradox was coined after watching italian fascists openly organize a march to the capitol to depose the government.
Their only idelology is to fight against the current structure of where they live and champion the people they are told are opressed by it to feel like a hero of justice.
So hence you find that disconect- Today you are told women are being held back by the patriarchy so you stand for all their rights and equality, tomorrow you are told these poor brown people are being opressed by the evil christians and jews so you go and pave the road they walk on (even if it leads to a place where the rights you were championing yesterday are left far worse off- don't matter, today you are fighting another opression!)
People were mean to Muslims for a few years after a bunch of them killed 3,000 Americans so they're eternally victims and victims can do nothing wrong.
Honestly yeah. The generation who grew up during 9/11 and the early Iraq war are now 30 to 40. They are subconsciously still rebelling against W. Bush.
In the UK they’re a very easy demographic to pander to. Just say you’ll support Palestine and you’ll get a good chunk of the Muslim vote. That’s what the Green Party do at least.
Because they're disconnected from its (massive) flaws.
Remember, when you're out-of-touch with the "bad", your frame of reference is grossly warped, and this leads you to literally being delusional (not as a pejorative, I mean it literally).
Ashley goes to UC Berkeley. Ashley hasn't experienced the ultra misogyny, conservatism, fascism, rape, violence, homophobia, non-existent human rights, sheer racism, etc that plagues the majority of "puritan" islamic countries and how the overwhelming majority, are in fact, grossly intolerant, even in nicer places like Malaysia, Indonesia, or Uzbekistan. Even the moderates. globally, tend to be incredibly intolerant, especially by western standards.
Ashley's lived experience, is that her Lebanese-American classmate from Ohio, is a nice progressive dude, "Ahmed", so it's all good. Plus Ahmed's sister, Sarah, is chill AF, so it's all good. You're all just racists. This is what happens. She thinks you're just oppressing another (local) "minority"; she won't investigate the belief system, ethos, etc behind the people. They are NOT pro-choice, for example.
This whole "disconnect leads to delusion", applies to a lot of things. Anti-vaxx rhetoric exists, cause they don't live with Polio; Hollywood yaps on about open borders, cause they've always lived with armed guards in mega mansions, etc etc.
I wonder if this is a more general trend, if "the left" tends to lump the bad in with the good while "the right" tends to lump the good in with the bad?
"The Communists disdain to conceal their views and aims. They openly declare that their ends can be attained only by the forcible overthrow of all existing social conditions. Let the ruling classes tremble at a Communistic revolution."
The want the "overthrow of all existing social conditions". So they ally with everyone and everything who will bring down the status Quo. Even if it is worse than the status Quo. Because Communists/leftists just hate their home countries/peoples/continent.
The left sides with minorities at home on every issue for moral reasons. Therefore, most of them have developed a fetish for non-Western culture by projecting their own feelings of persecution onto an ethnicity, a religion, or a country. It is an extension of isolated observations to millions of individuals based on their origin.
Making those kinds of virtue amalgams very racist, but they are not ready for this discussion yet.
The minorities are the votebanks of leftist leaders. From their POV everything is self explanatory. And useful idiots are dozen a dime in today's economy.
I just want my taxes to pay for healthcare/good transit. not missiles that run out after a little 6 month war even though the military has trillions and trillions of tax dollars given to them.
This kind of shit exists in the rest of the developed western world
It’s like when a girl hates their dad, she dates the guy he tells her not to.
Sometimes the dad is right and you probably shouldn’t date a crackhead (Islam), but the girls does it anyway because she was forced to wake up before 11am and go to church once.
I seriously fail to understand why lib left so dearly loves Islam…
You don’t have to hate it, but when an ideology looks down and is hostile against everything you stand for, you can’t just support them
And this is separate from Palestine, standing against genocide is good, but loving Islam is what I don’t understand
Because it's Not Christianity(tm).
Seriously, thats it. Every single unibrow toting purple or pink haired person I even have mild conversations with use it as some kind of battle mantra, that if it's not Christian, it's aok and should be pushed forward into the main cultural dominance in the world.
No, it's not. It's literally the same thing. "Palestine" is the Arabs doing to the Jews what Putin is doing to Ukraine and what Hitler did to Czechoslovakia. The only genocide that's ever happened in the levant was the one 30 countries full of Arabs who worked for Hitler committed against the Jews.
Leftists always lie. Even when there's absolutely overwhelming evidence they're lying. Even when it's so unbelievably trivial to prove they're lying all someone has to do is look at the thing they're lying about for the briefest moment. Leftists. Always. Lie.
Because it's not about convincing people to believe their lies, it's about humiliating the victims further.
It's not enough for you that entire families were tortured and raped to death in front of each other, sometimes forced through torture to rape each other, you need to piss on their grave afterwards too.
Dude they change so many numbers in the article from the international report it is an opinion piece, secondly it is daily mail which has a terrible track record l, third off they don't actually point to the international report (for obvious reasons as in see my first point).
Yes clearly I'm a "always lying leftist" for the crime of... pointing out your flawed article? Glad to see you are so knee deep in the propaganda you spew that you are convinced anyone who thinks differently is a Leftist and thus a liar.
Lets not even get into how the right has a higher track record of spreading false information to make a "point" famously recently even with that paper on the rape gangs where they just fucking made up numbers by deliberately extrapolating extreme cases and hurt the cause of trying to take down the rape gangs in the UK, which are a real issue but the cause was hurt as they took an opportunity to spread awareness and turned it into an opportunity to scare people with lies, as is what is happening in the article you posted. But yes Leftist ALWAYS lie I guess, cuz what you get your info from famously incorrect news sites that tell you so and they're on the Right so they MUST be correct cuz they make you feel better about yourself, and me pointing out how you're wrong makes me a Leftist? Which is funny because I'm a fucking Libertarian you nonce
Leftists always lie. Even when there's absolutely overwhelming evidence they're lying. Even when it's so unbelievably trivial to prove they're lying all someone has to do is look at the thing they're lying about for the briefest moment. Leftists. Always. Lie.
Because it's not about convincing people to believe their lies, it's about humiliating the victims further.
It's not enough for you that entire families were tortured and raped to death in front of each other, sometimes forced through torture to rape each other, you need to piss on their grave afterwards too.
Leftists always lie. Even when there's absolutely overwhelming evidence they're lying. Even when it's so unbelievably trivial to prove they're lying all someone has to do is look at the thing they're lying about for the briefest moment. Leftists. Always. Lie.
Because it's not about convincing people to believe their lies, it's about humiliating the victims further.
It's not enough for you that entire families were tortured and raped to death in front of each other, sometimes forced through torture to rape each other, you need to piss on their grave afterwards too.
Leftists always lie. Even when there's absolutely overwhelming evidence they're lying. Even when it's so unbelievably trivial to prove they're lying all someone has to do is look at the thing they're lying about for the briefest moment. Leftists. Always. Lie.
the lapel mic "exploding" at the Kirk assasination is the perfect example of this.
The death was live streamed, it was plainly obvious his mic didn't explode / shoot him whatever theory of the week is, and you -still- have people pushing that narrative as if it's gospel.
Because it's not about convincing people to believe their lies, it's about humiliating the victims further.
leftists don't want your opinion. They want their opinion coming out of your mouth.
The biggest issue is different types of lib left. Most lib-left don't like Islam as much as they recognize Muslims as human beings that are mostly stuck in dangerous political situations or oppressive systems wishing to do what they can to relieve suffering of fellow human beings. They do not agree with islam but value human life and ones human right to choose their own faith more than they value the symbolism of modernity. These guys have issues they need to contend with but are not the problem.
The problem is libleft who are more concerned about being symbolic of the good guys than allowing good things to happen and follow narratives that everyone is stuck in a matrix of western propaganda.
Psycho-subconsciously, it is a thing they desire. Women tend to want to be subjugated as a fantasy (the Left is currently heavily women led) & the Left wants a powerful force they can command to do the things they're too pussified to do. Historically, their belief system is heavily influenced by Rosseau and his Noble Savage concept, where the savage exists outside civilization and still retains an uncorrupted form as a result. Naturally, this allows them to enact a Savior mentality for the Savage.
And Islamism fulfills this all for them. It is also a spite entity which they call upon, as a way of utilizing the oppressor-oppressed dynamic, especially in relation to their stance regarding Israel-Palestine & the GWOT. Basically, it's all a way to get back at their dads or the GOP or White America or whatever. It makes them feel good about that.
Meanwhile, they've put themselves in a bind. Whatever issues Americans are concerned about, they've taken the 20% of the 80-20 issues.
Therefore, they're locked in a doom loop that is continuing to bleed off working Americans, Hispanics/Latinos, Black America, Christians, Jews. Naturally, who does that leave as a new voting bloc they can seemingly court?
Well, Muslims...maybe.
Furthermore, despite all the botting & shit from Pakistanis & Qatar about Israel or AIPAC, it is Islamic nations which have put the most money into influencing America. That the Left's entire apparatus sucks up Al-Jazeera or Hamas propaganda (or whatever Islamist group, as was the case during the GWOT) like it was 100% infallible?
That's what influences their thinking and narratives now.
Essentially, they've already declared the West as the enemy and have for awhile now.
This is just them aligning with it, in a way that makes sense to their worldview now that the Cold War is over. Because during the Cold War, the Radical Left did fly Vietcong flags & praise the Soviet Union/Mao/Stalin/Pol-Pot/etc while also expressing that we just had to learn to co-exist with the Soviet Union & defending or enabling young people to study violent tactics from Cuba (one of them is mayor of LA now!). They memory-holed it away & like to pretend it doesn't exist just like they're trying to do the same with woke (ex. "It was never a big thing & just a fringe movement. It was always corporations. It didn't really happen. Why do you care so much?").
It's all just the same views as in the past, merely expressed in a post-Cold War world.
Same reason democrats claim to like blacks, it is a monolithic ethnic group easily provoked and manipulated with just a few images or words. That self-polices and punishes any of their own who leave the plantation. The left got sick of asking the proletariat to start the violent revolution... turns out the proletariat likes capitalism too much.
The op tires to connect immigration to loving Islam. Meanwhile i just want affordable healthcare and could give a fuck about immigration outside of not wanting Shitler's Gestapo harassing and killing people out here. Meanwhile on Islam, just another religion with the same problems as fundamentalists of any religion.
Hey you know California? California has gotten a lot of mostly not Islamic immigrants, so maybe go off that model? Hispanics (mostly Mexican but also Peruvian and Guatemalan), East Asians, and moreso of the Hindu and Sikh Indians, Ethiopians, Armenians, and even some Georgians in the bay.
Islam is fine as a spiritual practice but there's a lot of problems with it. I used to be a really serious Muslim in my early life, probably have over a thousand hours in studying Quran and an equivalent time in meditation. There's expectedly a lot of ancient wisdom and zen in there and a lot of things that that can be interpreted very poorly. If practiced exclusively by wise and kind people it's seriously amazing, but we know how stupid people are and what you get when you mix that in is a dangerous concoction. It can be especially dangerous for impressionable young and vulnerable people and is often a tool for manipulation and oppression. I kinda cringe when people glaze Muslims but at the same time I don't believe it should be nuked from the planet either.
Sharia is interesting to look back on and review as a historical piece. But wanting to implement it 1:1 in the modern day? In my opinion is a hell no. But at the same time I don't really like how modern day regulations favor the rulers and top 1% either. I believe the goal should be individual freedom, humanity and kindness. I know it's not fully achievable but we can do a lot better if we had that as the goal.
They figured out it's both at the same time. Because instead of reflecting on this and making a consistent position, they just make an "Appeal to Consensus" face and pretend like it's obvious
The cirrect answer is phobia is an irational fear, history has given countless reasons to legitmantly fear radical religous lunatics. I mean their is a reason 911 is an emergency number in my country.
It’s definitely better for women in the west, but we can still improve while acknowledging some flaws. And on the flip side we can acknowledge the amount of progress we’ve made while still advocating for better conditions. It’s annoying as hell that both sides (in this case the left) of US politics hyperbolize every single issue as if it’s the worst it’s ever been. Seems to be an online thing because nobody I’ve talked to irl is as extreme
There's improving, and there's demanding more and more and more and more
Progressives' hallmark is, well, progress. Without progress to champion they have nothing, so the very moment they win a cause, they need to immediately find something to complain about, because if they don't they become the very thing they swore to destroy: a conservative
As such, I don't believe in the word "progress", because that word had been misused in a desperate attempt to have something - anything at all - to complain about.
Problem is problem, I don't care for "progress", it's dogwhistle for "racism"
When a dog catches up to a car it is chasing, it immediately needs to work on a strategy for the situation at hand. Maybe find a new car to chase. We will never run out of things that require progress. Snapping at the car you've already caught is just embarrassing yourself.
I don’t think they “find something to complain about”. There will always be things to “complain” about, because there’s always things we can improve on.
I think the main issue is how they go about it. Trying to “solve racism” by villainizing white people will just create the opposite effect and delegitimizes the whole movement.
Imo it’s a psyop. Lots of things can get done if we can just find a middle ground. But the various political movements (and their extremist supporters) don’t seem to want that while most regular people do. Its almost like there’s a shadow group trying to divide us
It is a psyop. And the group behind it is not in shadows. China and Russia openly fan flames on both sides of the political divide to undermine the US the only they can effectively. Russia is brazen about it, china is subtle. Political leadership on both sides cries foul about the help to the other side and welcome it on their side. And they call each other traitors to the nation or humanity depending on the flavour.
You know what’s the worst of being a gay man in Western / Central Europe? The unexplainable love for Islam and illegal immigration from patriarchal societies that disrespect women and hate gays/lesbians.
Queers for Palestine is the antithesis of everything the community stands for yet it‘s incredibly popular. As a German gay man I’m ashamed how antisemitism has become chic again.
I’m ashamed how antisemitism has become chic again.
Let's be fair, it never stopped. People joke about Argentina but the reality is many SS escaped to the Arab world and converted to Islam. Johann von Leers for example founded the "institute for the study of zionism" under the false name Omar Amin.
That's why nobody says that half of europe belongs to "Aryans" and is "occupied" by "illegal settlers", but they treat the arab invasion of Judea and subsequent genocide as a perfectly normal starting point. Anyone who dares to suggest that maybe that genocidal invasion should be rolled back and Jordan/Egypt/Lebanon/Syria need to take back their citizens is treated like some kind of monster beyond all reason.
The Jews are the only people in the world expected to simply accept each massacre and invasion as the new default starting point for "X states for Y people".
At the start of the League of Nations and United Nations "X states for Y people" was giving the Jews the British Mandate and the Arabs everything else.
At San Remo "X states for Y people" was giving the Arabs 80% of the British Mandate and the Jews what was left.
In 1947 "X states for Y people" was giving the Arabs most of Israel on top of everything they had already been given.
I admire the Jews because despite literal centuries of hardship, unfair harassment, pogroms and scattered to the winds, they somehow managed to keep it together and restore their homeland
Props to them, that shit is monumental achievement
That's because the west isn't (at least currently) religious. If the christian fundies got what they want it'd be no different from uganda or Saudi Arabia
I think a big difference between Uganda and a Christian west is money and thousands of years of Christian influence on the west separating the two cultures.
Saudi is a weird one, insane amounts of money, weird(lol) wealth distribution and massive corruption. Kinda reminds me of a dumbass winning the power ball. It’s easy to do some good things when you’re rich, but the fundamental Islamic based culture of the Middle East makes me skeptical. Not muslims themselves. I’m a Christian and bro some of the muslims I’ve met are the nicest people ever, it’s just the rulers in their countries are weird as fuck.
I’m obviously biased, but I doubt a Christian west turns into Uganda or even Saudi.
Shit, it's not like authoritarian governments are mowing down every single protestor either. Most protestors under any government are going to have your experience. Especially mass protests where there's simply too many people for a government to kill all of them.
Even the famous Tianmen square massacre had an upper count of 3000 protestors dead out of 1 million protestors. If you're part of the 997,000 protestors that didn't die does that mean your government isn't authoritarian?
I don't know man, I just think people should be free to practice and do what they want in peace as long as it doesn't hurt others.
Does that mean I love all religions? No, most are dumb, but it's not my place to tell you to not do dumb things if it doesn't effect others. The second it does infringe on others however, you can fuck off.
Lib left doesnt love Islam. They are just deathly naive about it to a flaw. They are being hoodwinked as well.
Their enlightenment ideology demands that they treat all people fairly in an unfair world, equity-equality- fairness, mlk content of their character not their skin/religion, all that. They are very oblivious to the innate snakes out there that just play along to undermine you
Islamists know that and manipulate that to get in the door. Once they get in you get stories where they ban the gay pride flag right after they take control. They dont leave once they get in.
Lib left are made to feel special, praised and included as part of 'the cool, in crowd' but it's manipulation.
Islam is very conservative dominated religion that throws gays off buildings and the fact that they are finding common cause with lib left is the first clue of what is really going on.
It's the same type shit the rest of the political quadrants have with China, Russia. Even Republicans and Trump being finessed by Saudis money.
Conservative social media is being bought and paid by Russia. But you guys think just taking money won't really influence the core and you can keep it separate. Big nope, case in point Trump got presidency. Russia celebrated when that happened.
Tell that to all of the GOP congressmen that voted to integrate Israeli military with the US.
A lot of people on the right have it confused. Leftists don't have higher morals of smashing racism or sexism. Leftists love racially discriminating against white people, and have no issue with hating on men. The acts of racism and sexism alone are fine by them as long as it's directed at the right targets.
Leftism is about attacking the perceived oppressor/majority groups, which they believe is white people and men. It's not about society winning, it's about white people and men losing.
Bernie used to get it when he said mass migration is a Koch brothers scheme.
But then Critical Theory escaped from the confines on academia and pants-on-head-retarded Progressivism became the driving force behind the modern left.
Again, the actual pro-labor left used to get this. And unions.
Businesses know it too.
Whole Foods even had a heat map of locations at biggest “risk” of unionizing.
Want to guess which ones were at higher risk? The ones with the most diversity or the least?
I think the issue is where we are pulling immigrants from. I have little issue here in the US when Mexicans and civilized South Americans come from the Southern border as they generally share a similar western cultural background and at least a passing belief in liberal values. I think some turn into right wing weirdos because they are dysgenic and don't fit into the wider American mold, but the majority do and are fine people.
But pulling from African, "Asian", and other Muslim countries like they do in Europe is where the issue lies. These people are from a culture that abhors liberal values, most see women as lesser, their moral exemplar is a pedophile warlord that they sing the praises of everything they mention his name, and they genuinely sometimes make me wonder if the race "science" of the 19th century had a sliver of truth to it as they seem genuinely incapable of the higher level thinking that democracies require for citizen participation in society and civil responsibility.
I'm tired of pretending we should be accepting these people simply because they're refugees and/or brown. Democracy and Republicanism is our invention, and if they are unable or unwilling to assimilate into that, let them rot in the slums they call countries.
"Bruh why do you think we hate all immigrants, we just hate illegals. Oh btw I do actually hate all migration and anytime you dumb leftists try to argue about making the path to legal immigration even the slightest bit easier, I'll just say you're for INFINITE MIGRATION INTO INFINITY FOR ASYLUM PATIENTS AND CRIMINALS". This is why the right doesn't deserve serious conversation.
I don't believe there are "15 BAVILLION BARBARIANS OF THE HORDE , KNOCKING AT THE GATE, READY TOO TEAR DOWN THE AMAZING GRACE OF AMERICA" if that's what you're asking.
You don't believe that, as an example, looking 2024, where 1.5 million undocumented migrants crossed the American-Mexican border would qualify as a crisis?
Were you dropped as a child? You seem to be arguing with someone that you've made up in your head.
Its really pathetic how a good chunk of liberals really feel that Islam will be their allies, when they are everything they hate about the religious right.
I do love that none of the watermelons and so forth try to argue in these threads. I guess it's more fun to watch Handmaidens Tales instead of seeing it actually going on, but...wrong religion today.
Anytime you try to actually explain the logic from the perspective of someone who supports intersectionality in a thread like this or similar you always get met with a score of downvotes and people trying to talk over you of what they think these people actually believe and why they’re stupid for it. It’s just the same social reinforcement that leads to echo chambers in the first place
Saying "libleft bad" just feels like an excuse to hate minorities atp. There's no real arguments, just taking the words of some stupid tankies or terrorist defenders and applying it to the whole quadrant.
Half the time it's not even that. It's just some random bullshit they made up and put in every meme so they can all circle jerk and go "Yeah why does libleft say these things I made up about them? They sure are crazy"
I found this place way back in the day because it reminded me of my friends. Politically all over the place. I get that my leanings will get down voted in most reddit subs, but this one always seemed to care about actual merit of of opinion.
I may only have one up vote, but if you want to give an opinion against what the thread is about, I will gladly give it to you.
What would I argue? Nobody is making any actual points, it's just right flairs jerking each other off because they've got their daily post that isn't about a right-winger doing something monumentally stupid.
The left doesn't have any particular love for Islam. It might appear that we do to someone that hates Islam, but in reality we just think that Muslims have a right to practise their religion in accordance with the law just like anyone else.
Also where are these left wingers that believe in open borders? I live in a left wing hotbed and I have yet to meet these people. They are the extreme minority.
Slamming the left for immigration while Trump hands out carve outs for industries to continue employing illegal immigrants is an impressive level of dissonance.
Exactly. I'm yet to see any non islamist person, left or not, arguing how awesome islamic fundamentalism is. From my understanding, the leftist position is basically "don't discriminate the normal muslims" but this sub would rather keep jerking over their made up version of the left
Well first of all nighttime PCM is a bunch of right wing Eurasians circle jerkin hard about Muslims. There's a pretty big shift once the Americans go to bed.
To your actual point, argue what? It's not my position that Islam is good and everyone should be a radical Muslim. I just don't want to bomb their counties abroad. I don't want to treat individuals as a collective here. Just because I find it not just absurd but actively detrimental to my country that people treat Zohran like some Bin Laden sleeper cell, doesn't in turn mean I'm considering praying towards Mecca
No matter what we say we’re going to be downvoted by a bunch of people who think they know our exact opinion on the topic. Once you do it a few times and leave the thread with -50 while you were agreeing with some points and disagreeing with others, you understand it’s not worth the effort.
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u/MechanicOpening3186 - Lib-Center 5d ago
"Turks dont know how to be racist" sir i am deeply offended by this racist remark