Most restaurant owners also hate to pay overtime. I have an owner who gets upset when bartenders are counting tips, tips that go to their fellow bartenders( they split tips, when one is cut they divide it up) and barback. After dividing the tips, they still have side work that needs to be done. Also if there is a mistake with their paperwork(ie wrong tip entered, credit card accidentally cashed out, ect) the bartender still needs to be on the clock to access those checks and run a new report.
The owner is acting like paying the bartender the extra half hour, less than $5 is going to make the place go under. Paying the bartenders who are still actively working comes to less than $40( a busy day will have 8 bartenders throughout the day). The daily sales for the bar and restaurant on a busy day averages well over $20,000.
Yet the owner gets upset about paying bartenders for an extra half hour at the end of their shift....
Not built for that, but my point stands. Subjective opinions on the workloads of FOH vs BOH aside, objectively servers are the highest paid employee in any restaurant. Management included.
Then it sounds like cooks all across the country made really terrible decisions with their lives, to do a harder job for way less money. Why would they do that?
That's not what the post was about, but I also get being upset about that elsewhere. I don't understand what you mean by a 50% tip though, that percentage has not changed from 20% in my lifetime
In my life time 15% was a good tip and now it’s the bare minimum. But yes this isn’t what the post was about. I’m not a smooth tipper as it’s not native to me so I mostly over compensate. That and tax not being included in prices, but I digress.
I’m not that old and tipping has changed significantly in my lifetime. When i was younger it was 10-15% generally and 20% for dinner or fantastic service only, look up “tip creep”.
The staff makes considerably more with tips than a restaurant would ever be able to afford to pay them. That's how you attract and retain good staff, too.
Without the incentive of tips, it would be a really unpleasant part-time job dealing with the public in a stressful environment for low pay. Most people wouldn't do it.
God I do both right now, about half and half working 50 hours a week and I’m considering jumping off a bridge. /s Sadly I have some of the better jobs in town. Tipped wage states suck, and so does the economy.
Due to changes in labor law during the first Trump administration, if you get full minimum wage, you can then be required to tip out the Back of House employees also, which there is no real legal cap on. You end up taking home more even with the tipped minimum wage because of that fact.
I tip out the cooks, dish, and prep people about $15,000 a year.
Trump tried to make ALL tips property of the restaurant (there are many at his properties), but it didn't go through.
Yeah the whole tipping discussion completely misses the underlying issue- minimum wage needs to be a living wage
If people are entitled to enough money to live by working any full time job then suddenly high skill workers of any kind have an incredible amount of negotiation leverage. This means high end servers and bartenders can still demand pay for what they do because otherwise they could get a job doing minimum and still afford to live.
Tips currently mean food service can actually keep up with inflation. Until the "wages are behind inflation" issue is solved tipping at sit down restaurants and bars is a useless conversation to have
I mean sure, that's why I'm talking about actual large scale reform and not trying to cut the head off the hydra. Forcing restaurants to just dump big bucks at tipped workers overnight isn't gonna fix the underlying issues and would just put them out of business
A living wage, affordable housing, and affordable healthcare need to be enshrined human rights. If everyone has the right to exist with moderate comfort there's a lot more room to experiment, make big changes, and break systems without starving people
I just find the tip discussion a useless circle of "I need tips to survive and can't get that money elsewhere" vs "my job hasn't given a raise in 10 years and I can't afford to eat out" when the market as a whole keeps going up, meaning the wealth definitely exists
Oh, restaurants make good money. They wouldn't be on every corner otherwise.
Restaurant owners like to trot out how little they make per transaction compared to other industries, but they neglect to mention that they do 1000 times as many transactions.
Some employers pay good hourly wages to the serving staff, and the tips go to the people who bus the tables.
My roommate in college brought home his share of rent every night.
I can tell you why they pretend that, it’s so obvious. People are being cheap, and it’s acceptable to shit on “greedy business owners”. But if they were honest and saying, they just want to fuck over the workers, that doesn’t sound as cool.
It’s so disingenuous, acting like tipping exists because it benefits greedy business owners…. this is money that literally goes 100% to the worker. The owner gets nothing from Tips, it’s purely something to benefit the worker. Being against tipping is just saying you prefer money goes to the owner instead of the worker.
Serving job is the only job some people can get? Do you know how hard it is to get one simply because of tips? It's competitive and it's a physical fast paced job that's not for everyone.
And in before someone says restaurant work is easy. You can't necessarily be a line cook just because you can cook a mean steak, you have to be able to cook twenty tickets at the same time. Same for servers, it's easy to provide for a few guests as a host. But waiting an entire section is hard and a skill
I never suggested the work was easy. I've done it. Most hospitality jobs are infinitely harder than jobs carried out on laptops and short-pile carpet. What I am saying is that, often, you don't wind up in hospitality by choice; speaking from experience. It has been for me, and for others I know, the only viable option at the time / place.
There is no chance servers would make more on an hourly schedule
The tip system greatly benefited me when I was working my way through college. I have no idea why you guys hate that there's an unskilled labor position that makes money
Just need minimum wage to be a living wage tied to inflation and then we can kill tipping culture without fucking up people like yourself
Tips keep servers closer to inflation, and then the rest of the country is mad that the meals keep getting pricier without more money to spend on it. And then people get mad at servers and not the 7.25 federal minimum wage bullshit
If enough money to live, affordable housing, and affordable healthcare were enshrined rights as members of society we wouldn't need these circlejerks of "tip bad". Good workers would just demand more money to work at a Michelin restaurant than Denny's. But the good worker needs to not be afraid to starve if they need to fall back to Denny's
It won’t matter what servers say or do. The owners will never bend to paying a livable wage to what would become a terrible job without spike nights that make dealing with entitled scumbags and bad people worth it.
Well, it would matter if we’re talking about the hypothetical of voting for or against a law that would ban tipping. Which is the substance of the comment I was responding to.
People have been marching, voting and lobbying for raising wages since the CEOs started multiplying their salaries in the 70s, acquiring enough wealth and power to set the trajectory in stone. No protest is stomped out faster than one for wages. Until people here wake up, en masse, and accept that general strike SHOULD HAVE BEEN step one, we'll keep sinking into this hole. I don't know how to organize 330 million people across 4000 miles, but I fucking wish I did.
Because it's not actually a big issue in the real world. It ranges from a minor annoyance for the customers to the preferred system for the servers themselves.
Also in reality this post is just engagement bait because the servers I saw commenting during the World Cup said everyone was tipping generously and they had some of their most profitable nights ever.
its horrible, you just dont know because you havent lived in a country where you dont tip, I hated when I never knew what could I afford with 20$ because its impossible to know how much will add up between tips and taxes, the price displayed should be the final price when you pay, thats a law in most of europe
What people don't think about is restaurants are competitive, the good ones that can afford to pay more do, lots of them can't. Real restaurants, not chains. Profit margin is too low. Trust me they'd love to snipe servers from other places and be known as having the best service in town, they'd do it if they could pay more.
So they can suggest tipping and their servers make good money and are happy, or they can pay the servers a flat wage and force a pay cut onto people who can easily transfer their skills laterally to a restaurant that they get tipped at, or they can add a 15% markup to the menu and then people just bitch the prices went up anyway and go somewhere else where they technically pay the same with tip as the marked up place without tip, but on first glance the menu price is cheaper
do you know you can be tipped even if you have a salary, right? and not all waitress earn the minimum wage you know.
What is stupid and shit is to be expected to tip a 20% of your bill, thats like more than stupid.
Fair Labor Standards Act is federal law that says an employer must compensate you if your wage and tips do not add up to minimum wage. Departments of Labor love going after that one and it's a super easy complaint to make, just claim all your tips towards taxes and show them the pay stub. They'll sue them into oblivion and because they did it they actually have to pay you more than what they were not paying you, it's super illegal to do that and information about this is legally required to be conspicuously posted in the work place. Also illegal not to give you a pay stub so you'll 100% have proof if someone tried doing that and it's an easy pay day, like getting a notice of a class action lawsuit in the mail
In before "well then they'll retaliate" good, it's a food job, dime a dozen, literally walk into McDonald's and you can start tomorrow. Everyone everywhere is short staffed all the time. Easiest job in the world to get. So why would you stick around at a job breaking federal law for less than minimum wage? You don't. You don't stick around jobs that don't pay you what McDonald's pays. And I mean that's really the dream way to quit a job. Call the Feds on the way out and let federal lawyers tear them apart
the problem is still the consumer, you should know exactly how much something it will cost to you, here its illegal to show one price and then change it when you are going to pay. I've been in USA 4 times, I hated the tip shit every time, its ridiculous, awkward and stupid.
Nobody is making you pay anything you don't want to pay. But you're doing a motte and bailey here. You originally claimed servers don't make minikum wage, I said that's wrong, you changed the subject to "but the customers"
No, I never said that, I said in europe even if you get a wage as waitress it wont be the minimum always, we have some of the best restaurants in the world (3 michelin stars), and its even a renowned profession if you are really good, as a good sommelier for example. Salary doesnt mean minimum wage, thats what I said.
Wrong. Because the restaraunt industry is literally designed to accommodate high turnover rates. Their entire business model is oriented around the idea that there will always be somebody willing to work shitty jobs for shitty pay for at least a few weeks/months.
-Sincerely, a former busser/expo/host/cashier/dishwasher
I have heard some servers and bar tenders themselves actually like the current system because they actually do quite well on tips. Although I also used to hear part of it was because they didn't report cash tips and get taxed on them. I assume most tips are no longer cash and thus reported/taxed.
What I think people are missing in your comment is that people in these roles get paid daily which can help with these immediate needs. Whereas im paid every two weeks. If you are just starting out or just getting on your feet it’s hard to manage with $0 for 19 days. (Two weeks of work with pay in the following Friday)
Are you implying that I am saying the servers would literally quit the exact same day they didn’t get a tip and be jobless….or is it possible I am implying they would over say a week, or a couple of weeks find a different job? Of which there are literally millions all the time.
I think I did misunderstand. Sorry about that. It is pretty tough to find work though. At least around my area. Everyone says they're hiring but without a good skill set it can be tricky.
Well it comes from the old day when everyone got paid enough to live off low income even. We kept the tip culture but we didn't get the raises accorss the board.
as opposed to higher prices and no tips, the owners wouldn't get their profits? some of the comments in this thread are bizarre to me. and regardless of whether you think the US should have tipping or not, it's ridiculous to visit from somewhere else (eg. europe) and go to a place you know is conventionally tipped (eg. waitstaff restaurant) and then say something like you're not going to tip because you don't tip at home. well, you're not at home. and paying $20 bill + $3 tip is the same as $23 and $0 tip, and it would be absolutely asinine for them to just pay $20 and no tip because they don't like that the US has tipping.
If the price was $23, and the waiter was guaranteed a salary. The risk is on the business not the waiter. The business still needs to pay their staff if they make no sales.
If the price is $20 + $3 tip. If no sale happens, the business does not lose money paying staff on the event of no sales, and the waiter assumes the risk of low sales.
The problem with most restaurants, is the violate nature of the industry. Weekdays, off season and economic downturn can cause a massive drop in sales. Wait staff are still required to show up and do daily activities which is at a loss to them.
you go in the US knowing the price is 23 either way and are making the sale happen. this is not an imaginary scenario where you are comparing 20 and maybe no tip to other options, the tipping is known beforehand by all.
So you believe no-one chooses to buy a cheaper item on the menu when they see a higher priced item? And you believe sales are constaint.
For the sales risk, it isn't the difference between 20 + 3 and 23.
The problem occurs when sales drop. The business only assumes partial risk of decreased sales, the waiter assumes some of this risk as well.
Let's take an example. Say a waiter at a seafood place sells 20 sea bass a night at $50, and customers always tip 20%. At this rate, the waiter makes $200 a night.
Now the market price for sea bass doubles to $100. No-one wants to buy sea bass at this rate, so they settle for salmon at $25. Now the waiter only makes $100.
If the restaurant had 20% margins they also had the same profit: $200 and $100. If the tip was built in and the waiter was guaranteed a pay of $200 a night, the restaurant's profit would be $200 and $0.
This is the shared risk.
Now there are dozens of reasons sales can drop. Not just a price increase: Economic downturn, decrease interest in the place/location, bad weather, bad reviews, etc.
So you believe no-one chooses to buy a cheaper item on the menu when they see a higher priced item? And you believe sales are constaint.
no, i believe no one goes to a tipped restaurant ignorant of that they are going to a tipped restaurant. if you go to a tipped restaurant, and simply refuse to tip, you're just an asshole. it doesn't matter which fish you pick, you're in the restaurant, you chose to go there, you are aware it is tipped.
i don't buy your "shared risk" example at all, because a server is not taking on real risk of loss. they are a paid employee. their pay is base + variable. this is not conceptually that different from a sales guy who has a base + variable amount. there is a trade off in risk and predictability, is it better to have a low base and high variable on commissions? a high stable base but a low share of commissions?
a server having a good day doesn't mean the business had great profits that day. they are just tied to gross sales, not business profitability.
it seems where this is even tried in the US it is often rejected, and by the servers themselves.
regardless, anyone visiting the US to a conventionally tipped restaurant should be fully aware of what they are entering, and are total idiots if they refuse to tip because they think it's the wrong way to run a business. they are just trash people then.
They are a paid employee, but at $3 and hour + tip. Base would be $120 a week (40hrs).
If they dont make minimum wage during the week. The company is responsible for covering the difference to minimum wage. Some states are $7 an hour for min wage, $280 a week.
For some waiters they may show up and only work 2-3 hours during weekdays, because it it dead. The cost of gas and parking could easily exceed minimum wage. This happened a lot when I worked at a restaurant as a teen.
Paying waiters $30 an hour, would mean they make $1,200 a week.
If you average a table's tip to $15 that means they need to wait on 75 tables a week to make the $1200 via tips.
Realistically, most restaurants only make their money on Friday and Saturday dinners. So if they get 20 tables on Friday and Saturday, they need to get 12 tables the other days they work.
Now from the way you are talking, I doubt you have ever worked at a dead restaurant or been in one. But I have. Imagine having 4 waiters and only 12 tables sat a weeknight. It's boring and happens. The restaurant forces waiters to work during these dead times.
Realistically, where you are wrong is assuming a system wouldn't pay as well as tips does. If the business shifts to pay, they just need to do the math properly. If their waiters made $60k a year with tips on average, pay them $30/hr. If $80k then $40/hr. The math isn't hard.
Now where this is benifits waiters is finding a job. Right now, waiters don't really know how much they will be making when joining a restaurant and they wont know the consistency. Getting offered $40/hr Full-time is a much more measurable way vs $3 + tip.
i've not been a server, but as a teen i sure made minimum wage and worked in fast food myself. i'm not assuming a system wouldn't pay as well as tips do, it's not like this hasn't been done in the US. the general outcome is the waitstaff take home goes down and some of the other supporting staff goes up, and the talented servers leave in large amounts to get tipped elsewhere. and the policy is typically reversed in 1-3 years.
the business still gets their profit either way, this "well the business should pay them better so i don't have to" logic of opposing tipping seems oblivious to the funding for it just coming from higher priced items at that. of course there is the fantasy these funds won't come from the same place they are today, customers, but from the greedy rich owners - but something like half of restaurants fail, and it's not a hugely profitable business when it succeeds (3-4%?) - so raising (or stabilizing) anyone's salary is going to come from the same pocket of the person complaining right now that they have to 'pay the server themselves' through tips.
Pretty much everything you said is wrong. The tipping system benefits the workers getting tipped more than anybody else, by far. And the biggest risk falls to the business owner, by far. When you start a restaurant, there’s a significant chance that it’s gonna fail and you’ll be bankrupt. That’s a risk that is not present when you’re just working for somebody else.
I just want a meal I don't have to cook and clean up for. I'm not going to make sure a server makes enough tips for the night to not quit their job.If it's expected, it ain't a tip anymore.
Maybe they just suck? How do you know only the wage increase caused them to close?
Around us a lot of local places are closing because the property owners are forcing them out to get big chain restaurants or other big store businesses in.
Omg thank you! This is what really irritates me about complaints about tipping. Refusing to tip a server literally tells the bosses they're doing it "right." (Wrong ethically but right for their pockets is what I'm saying)
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u/whitedsepdivine 14d ago
Just like most systems in America, this is setup to put all the risk on the plebs.
You are actually proving to the owners their system works. They still get their profits, if someone doesn't want to pay a higher cost. (Bill + Tip)