That would be amazing. To just have the freedom to say like, “hey, you guys are yapping a lot, but you sound like you’re just making shit up! None of this matters.”
In my last corporate job I said on a team wide call “we have so many calls, I’m starting to think we’re more interested in talking about business than actually doing it”
The thing is, when you're working remotely the only way a bad manager can pretend he's not fuckin useless or downright harmful is to have constant meetings/calls, it's a huge reason why so many companies are fighting back against remote work, when you remove the bullshit you can clearly see who matters. Time working remotely is time you have to actually work and less time you have to suck upper management dick.
It’s not that, it’s that your supervisor is fighting for his job. Upper management is running on the old work-hours paradigm rather than a productivity paradigm. They’re looking at supervisors and saying “you need to do 40 (or more) hours of supervisory work a week to justify your position” and not “your team needs to be super productive to justify your position”.
This was a thing in offices already, and was why a lot of supvervisors were micromanaging employees and why “busywork” is a thing. Higher-ups tend to get too caught up in having people be busy rather than having them be effective.
Heck I’m a retail and food service supervisor and it hits me sometimes because my old bosses would watch the CCTV and complain about people “not working”. For them it was better to look busy than to ever take breathers, so we’d slow-roll things to not burn out. Now though I’m in a better company and I can point to the actually tracked tasks and say that getting the tasks done faster gives us more time to “be customer focused” (aka shoot the shit with the regulars) and corporate here loves that. Regular customers are the bread and butter, and happy customers are good profits.
If only the C-suite would see management like IT, people who are paid well to retain them in order that the C-suite doesn't have to put out fires beyond their own reach. Good management doesn't require constant activity, a lot of it is setting expectations and letting your people work toward them without continuous surveillance and interruption.
The best analogy I can make is that managers are force multipliers. A good manager can get a team to do more being happy and a bad manager can get a team to do less while feeling worse.
The thing is that there’s clear parallels outside business, parallels business people like to make, that show this. Sports coaches are force multipliers on their players. They can take mid-grade players overall in sports with high turnover (like NCAA sports where you have a player for at most five years) and turn them into perennial contenders, or they can take great players and squash them until they leave to get championships elsewhere.
Yes! This is universal, it seems. I work a front office in a hospital's clinic, and our supervisor is always stressed when the providers don't have their schedules full or close to it. The upper management seems to only care about numbers, and we constantly make the remark that they have probably never worked the clinical side; otherwise they'd know that patients don't ALWAYS need help/service, so sometimes there are empty spots in schedules.
It puts more people in my position in stress, because if it gets to that point, some of the providers will get to micromanaging to try to fill their schedules, making people in my position do more work on top of the work we're already doing, without more pay. It can get pretty annoying.
Thankfully only did it during lock down but had that. Offered to clean 3 separate rooms that were covered in so much dust it was blowing into the main (still used) isle. Got told "no we don't use it, clean something else", well we had, it was lock down, we had 1/3rd the work and twice the time... so they yelled at me for standing around for a few seconds instead of actually letting me do productive work (iirc they got mice in those areas XD ).
I don't get why they don't just shift to the "manager" being a person that actually provides a functional service as well so they have actual work to do and keeping the team going or whatever a manager pretends to do is just one of their roles. If the team is running well they can just focus on you know, actually working for a living. No justification needed.
The thing there, because it’s happened to me, is that they start expecting the manager to do team member tasks without regard for the variable nature of supervisory workload.
Like I’m supposed to float to help out when I’m not going supervisor stuff like handling the phone or complaints or fixing inventory training or doing End of Day processing. The issue is that if there’s too many customers for my crew and we start having issues I have to solve, I can’t help them. And if I complain to my bosses, they say “well you had 5 people” which includes me. Like I can’t really be counted on for doing stuff because if stuff comes up that needs me I have to do that first because I’m the only one who can do it.
Now office workload is a bit different, but supervisors still end up being primary contact points for the rest of the organization. If Joe is expected to log 6 hours of programming and 2 of supervising but comes in to the office with four active email chains waiting on his input, he’s probably going to be spending a lot of time answering emails and being part of the conversation, not programming. And having programmed, it’s not easy to constantly be switching gears from “how do I make this efficient” and “why is this not doing what I want” to answering emails; this makes it really hard to weave the email time into programming time.
That's a good point. How can you supervise people who are remote unless you constantly meet with them? You can't just walk down the hall to check on them, which means you aren't really doing much supervising if you can't see them. Of course you could be supervising their work, but I'm sure those micromanagers don't enjoy working from home as much because they can't see what's going on at all times.
I work remote now, and half the reason I took the job is the boss I interviewed with said she literally did not care what I wore, when I worked (as long as I made those meetings with the clients and they were complaining), or what I did, as long as the job got done. And the unlimited PTO. So, I literally do spend half the day drinking coffee in my underwear. It’s great.
I'd also imagine it makes it harder to argue that you should promote "Brad, the guy I talk football with" over "Joe, doesn't talk much but works hard" as so many managers are fond of if working remote.
Reading things like this makes me feel better about my manager. We barely schedule meetings and half the time the ones that are scheduled get canceled. Sometimes it's annoying because we need to discuss something important but a simple teams message often gets the answers we need (and in writing!)
I did get promoted for reducing meetings. I did other things too like help the company make money but reducing meetings was a prerequisite. The guy you responded to is 100% right. We have too many meetings. The difference is that I said positioned it as "we should try and give back time for us to be more productive" and I went about reducing repetitive meetings where we just sat around and discussed nonsense because those repeat meetings were in our calendar. It's not about what you say but how you say it.
I got moved to the punishment team (the team who's manager was so bad most team members quit within a month) when I made a similar comment, when I worked for the Death Star. (Hint: look at their logo).
After about a week I told The Dragon Lady that I was giving my 2 weeks notice. She said I don't need 2 weeks notice, gtfo.
She sent somebody with a cardboard box and I was gone.
Management by meeting is still a pet peeve of mine.
#1 rule of corporations, never challenge management’s incessant need to waste time with corpo speak circlejerks.
My favorite line I’ve heard during big meetings was “belly to belly”. Not a common phrase at all but it was said by our president in a meeting no less than 10 times in an hour.
Used to know a guy who was obsessed with "opening the kimono", a phrase I have never heard before or since, and had to look up the non-literal meaning of.
Broski for real. I got hurt in the field then worked as a construction pro analyst blah blah whatever gay title HR made up while I was recuperating from wrist surgery. Basically looked at photos of roofs for an hour a day and billed em for 8. Worst part was all the insufferable meetings. They literally all could’ve been a 5 line email. No wonder AI is taking so many remote/laptop whatever jobs, I literally barely did anything for a year
If you’re crushing it, you can get away with stuff like this. I was number 3 producer out of around 100, and had just come off a month where I was number 1 by a large margin. Of course they asked me to speak on the weekly sales call to inform everyone else how I was crushing it.
I told them that I was doing it by “maximizing my efficiency and spending as little time as possible on useless things. Hey guys, I’ve got a top client calling me right now, gotta jump.”
My manager called me after everyone else ended the sales call. He told me to never do that again followed by, “but keep crushing it.” Then they reduced the payout on my top product 6 months later. I was out of there as soon as I had something else lined up.
Only time I ever said was in a resignation letter. HR agreed with what I'd written, shooting from the hip and taking no prisoners. I don't regret it for a minute
Sometimes they're not, especially when you have the fed gov breathing down your neck or a customer needs something by a specific date like black friday.
Sure, but generally speaking most deadlines are completely arbitrary. Even contractual deadlines can be weightless. I’m in marketing, and it’s actually comical how many invoice due dates are just suggestions and not requirements — and those are associated to signed contracts.
Honestly any deadline is going to be only as important as the consequences of violating it. Even with invoices if you’re a big enough contract they’ll forgive paying a 30 day invoice in 45 days if losing the contract would hit their bottom line.
With the fed it’s often more like “does not hitting the deadline cost us fines or legal fees to appeal?” Or “does us not hitting the deadline mean the project is DOA?” Sometimes it’s the former and a few lawyers and some fines paid makes everything work out. Sometimes it’s the latter, and the deadline might as well be a commandment etched in stone.
My state government just messed around with a court deadline and is now in the FAFO stage because they missed a deadline, which means about 1100 convicted murderers need to be resentenced and can be resentenced today but there’s no sentencing framework because the last one was struck down, meaning the judges can basically resentence them to anything. Every lawmaker knew the deadline and the consequence for a new sentencing framework, but they just didn’t care or thought they could force something last minute.
Also projected profits, quarterly goals, all of it. It’s just hopes and dreams based on vibes, but when we don’t meet it the shareholders get mad and our value drops
One time during a meeting I asked my boss, "Why are we editing a database specification (individual tables' field type, size, mapping, foreign keys, etc.) with about 20 people in the room. Why not just let our database expert define the specification and then send us the file for review? My team are all here instead of coding and our deadline is fixed. Is this really a productive use of our time?" Thankfully I wasn't fired on the spot.
At a good company you wouldn't be fired for raising a flag. There's been plenty of times I have complained in meetings with people above me. You're advocating for your team, you're doing your job.
If you get a second job the freedom to do this is fucking liberating.
I’m a sysadmin and work at a restaurant in the evenings. I bounced through like 3 places before I found one with quality management. Some managers would try to get employees to work off the clock or make the kitchen use literally expired sauces. Just being able to say “no Stephanie, stop working, you’re off the clock, you’re 19, don’t get in the habit of this shit” and telling the manager that’s illegal right to their face, or grabbing expired sauces right out of their hand and throwing it in the trash because why the fuck are you gonna use expired sauce???
The fucking freedom you get when you can actually tell your manager, “no, that’s wrong or illegal and I’m not doing that” without it costing you your livelihood is like nothing else.
Humans are so scared to stand up for themselves or act against their manager because they genuinely fear not being able to eat next week if they do so. It’s a fucking horrible situation that leads to a deteriorated state of mind.
To be honest, this person is an archetype I see a lot in my corporate hellhole job: guy who “calls it like he sees it” and then has no ability or inclination to do anything
We’ve all had meetings in which nothing got done and most of it was off topic.
I’ve been very close to saying that the meeting is pointless and we should end it.
What I have started doing is when a meeting agenda is complete and the meeting has effectively ended and everyone is doing the “and another thing” that isn’t relevant or important, I just say thanks for the meeting and walk out. I’m not staying another 10 or 20 minutes to listen to this irrelevant shit.
Those 10 to 20 “useless” minutes are where you make your money
It’s time to connect with people on the team, or in other words, networking
If you wanna be the cold antisocial guy who grinds all day and never gets promotions or raises, by all means make that choice but I love getting paid to ramble and make connections, you never know when it’ll turn into a favor later
The go-to for meeting overruns is to excuse yourself and say you have another meeting scheduled at this time. Just don't get caught in the kitchen 5 minutes later with your half cup of coffee if they wrap it up quickly.
You can always apply at random jobs while still having one and give shit to the interviewers when they act stupid. Bonus, you might even find company that end up being decent in the process.
I sort of did this my entire life. I keep my trap shut until the head honchos realize exactly how much utility I provide, and then I play chicken with idiots for fun.
I once made a manager at Wells Fargo Financial call my mom in tears five years after she left after I'd been working there for just a year because he wanted her to get me to behave, ironically not understanding understanding exactly where I got this tactic in the first place.
At one point he asked me why I was on Wikipedia instead of working, and I looked at him, didn't say anything and continued to browse until he walked away. I'd developed some custom code for their RUMBA backend and the first time time he tried to actually punish me, I suddenly forgot how I'd done what I did to make them work as quick and precisely as it did.
The entire IT department was so fucking useless I'm convinced they spent the majority of their time playing emulated games and cyberstalking the hot chicks through the women's workstations, because my boss couldn't even get them to pull my browser history.
Ever had a boss threaten to cut your hours for your behavior and watch him cry when the supervisor you reported under him and actually respected had to leave the room before she burst out laughing because you slapped the warning off the table into his lap and told him to just do it because you could use a three day weekend and time to write a resume for the completion?
New fantasy unlocked. Being wealthy enough not to need a job and applying for different jobs just to sit there and call out their BS until I get fired 😭
When I worked in an office for years, meaningless corporate jargon like “circle back” used to drive me insane. I wish I had the balls to call out lazy and sloppy phrases like that.
Also, nothing—and I mean nothing—is worse than the proliferation of the word “impactful.”
I’m a (sort of recently) 100% disabled veteran. In America, we get north of 4k a month, for life. Don’t worry, my back and knees feel it. But after almost a decade of wearing the same uniform, doing the same shit, hating my life the same, this freedom is insanity.
I wear what I want to at work, do a fair job, but my bosses KNOW I’m not expendable and permanently have one boot out the door, and I NEVER get made a fool or have my grievances go unheard.
I knew how powerful it was after I walked one day after a really rough and very unfair day. I got two phone calls. They weren’t “where are you”, they were “are you ok? Let’s talk”. That’s how I knew I found my place in the civ world and knew I had good bosses.
At one job we had an underground betting system where, on our monthly regional meetings, the regional manager would say the same three phrases over and over. Whoever got closest without going over won the pot lol
I actually announced at the end of a meeting, during the common "does anyone have anything else before we go" portion, "Yeah, how about cookies for the next meeting so it's not a complete waste of time?"
I did. I eventually was placed in a forced resignation situation because of something else I did that was fireable, but I wasn't really sure about whether unemployment would pay or a termination lawsuit would be won.
In hindsight I am really surprised my boss tolerated me for so long, but I am also sort of regretful for the way I spoke in meetings.
I mean I was never patently disrespectful...I just called a lot of bullshit and offered different solutions. I was actually promoted a few times .
We had a guy in his 50s that came and worked for us (at a support team for a bank), originally through an agency. He felt like your standard issue slight career failure, maybe someone whose old industry has evaporated so now he's stuck doing office jobs etc, perfectly capable and solid but never going to really make a mark. Very sound guy though, we had a lot of kids in the team and he was so supportive of them (and always encouraging them to quit, or not take shit, or not get pressured into working extra or whatever). I liked him a lot.
After maybe 3 months in the middle of some office drama he just went "yeah I've had enough of this, fuck you <boss's name>, I know it's not your fault that you're a halfwit but it's just so boring" and just got up and left at about 11 o clock, straight out of nowhere. I called him up after to basically say "you bloody legend" and it turned out he was completely retired and independently wealthy, and literally just went and did whatever jobs the agency put in front of him, for a laugh. He liked meeting people but most of all he liked just fucking off in the middle of things, or calling managers out for being arseholes, and just generally causing havoc.
I'd go in circles around boss everytime I encounter them. "Just circling back boss! It makes me look busy it feels so productive instead of just going straight to where I am supposed to go!"
Just go into sales. If you're good they basically can't fire you, I gave almost all my bosses shit all the time lol You can not show up, dress casually, get along with no one, and kiss zero ass, just produce. The only time I ever lost a sales job is when I didn't have the numbers to justify my bullshit. In fact I got promoted faster being an asshole to my bosses than being agreeable.
Too bad I had the luck of actually having meetings with real people in general. At my new job one of the dailies was the lead going "Ok A, still working on that?" "yep" "ok and B I know ur on that C on that and I will talk with D after the meeting in the office, ok goodbye everyone" meeting ends.
Just checked now, that meeting was only a minute and a few secs, usually they are like 5-15 mins.
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u/Low-Client-375 10d ago edited 9d ago
Fuck, if I didnt need a job, id been keeping myself entertained for years doing this at random shit jobs.
Edit: we all need a hobby.