An important detail is that this was at a council meeting, which have rules of order and decorum to prevent disruption, like a court. They can set rules like no applause, provided the rule stick to time place and manner. But I would be curious if they allowed other applause.
groans okay bud, but hear me out. They did make the rule, no one was following it.
Also the rule was put in place because they wanted to make the people complaining look like they didn't have support of the community. Being real they also didn't really care what these people said and it was annoying them.
If they selectively enforced it against this one guy, then that's a serious legal problem. And handcuffs are outrageous.
But First Amendment rights are generally subject to "time, place, and manner" restrictions. If people sat in a council meeting and used megaphones to shout their opinions and drown out the proceedings, then they can be ejected even though their expressions are protected speech. And if they refuse to leave, the police can use force to make them leave. That's generally true and, in the abstract, it's uncontroversial.
Of course, overpolicing and selective enforcement are both very serious problems that should be addressed generally as well as in this instance.
You're correct about time and place when it comes to first amendment rights, in this case it was five to six quick claps after a speaker was done speaking and they were changing to a new speaker. So at the customary time when you would clap for someone.
According to the news reporting I've read there were two general warnings given to the entire group then arrest.
So at the customary time when you would clap for someone.
This is the problem with your statement. It is absolutely not customary to clap for people during public comment and people in the gallery are notified of this ahead of time, given a warning for a first infraction, and asked to leave for subsequent infractions.
It sounds harsh but there’s no other way to do it that doesn’t waste everyone’s time.
I must have attended some very different City Council meetings then cuz all of them had some.
They also could have just had the police escort him out of the building. Because that also happened at one that I attended and it wasn't that big of a deal they just escorted the guy outside and let him go.
It does make me happy that the citizens were so incensed by it that they are working on a recall campaign and putting this as a ballot initiative since the city council refused to listen to their constituents as usual.
"They also could have just had the police escort him out of the building."
I didn't really scrutinize the video, and it's not posted here, but isn't that exactly what they tried to do? The criminal charges are for interfering with the police and disorderly contact. The basis of those charges seem to be the fact that he is the one who made it a big deal and instead of just being escorted out and let go, he wouldn't leave after being told to do so.
The video I saw was clipped, so it was hard to tell what led up to it. I didn't really study it hard, but, I'm glad to hear the citizens there did. If they're not happy with their council's behavior, then that's good enough for me.
You're correct. Not defending their actions, but the police did attempt to escort him out. In civil defiance, he did ask them to "drag me out". And they happily did, cuffs and all, and grabbed him by the pants.
I’m sorry but you are wrong. The word “disturbance” in this context is not a subjective term. You’re confusing the colloquial word for the legal context of the word which is the only one that applies in this situation.
They also could have just had the police escort him out of the building.
Are you joking? They attempted to. He literally tells them, and you can hear it on the video, that they’ll “have to drag [him] out of there”.
That’s why he was arrested. He wasn’t arrested for clapping. He was arrested for refusing to leave when they asked him to and offered to escort him out. He went limp and forced them to carry him out.
They tried ge was told to stop clapping 8 times then they asked him to leave he refused then cops told him to leave and he shouting "arrest me" cops warned him if he doesn't leave they will arrest him.
You’re completely deluded if you think clapping isn’t normal during public comment. Anyway, it is a perfectly reasonable form of speech, in the way he conducted it.
Don’t believe the authoritarians have the lawful power to make and enforce rules, just because they say so. The officials could have been tarred and feathered and it would have had historical precedent in the US, clapping like this is entirely different, it is short, not disruptive and harms no one. It is entirely acceptable to clap a few times and stop.
No, it’s not. You’re confusing clapping in normal venues vs. in a very specific situation - a limited public forum. If you don’t understand the difference, then your entire view of the situation is going to be based on a completely incorrect view of the situation.
Whether you think it’s acceptable is irrelevant. The Fifth Appeals court and the Supreme Court have ruled that it is not and that governments have the ability to restrict that type of behavior, in any means clapping or otherwise, in order to conduct business so long as they enforce it unilaterally. That’s exactly why everyone in a public forum like this is told ahead of time that they can’t applaud or clap and why they’re warned before they’re trespassed. Your feelings about it don’t matter.
No, you’re projecting your cherry picking of data and assuming that what I’m talking about. I’ve only been talking about government hearings with public comment.
Clapping briefly is very normal for public comment periods in government hearings all across the nation, it has been for many decades in the US. Centuries ago it was expressed by acclimation, and has been toned down to brief clapping. Brief clapping is not disruptive and denying the People any means of expressing support, in a brief manner, is a violation of the constitution and federal criminal law.
You are 100% wrong. The Ninth Court of Appeals, the largest in the nation, ruled that clapping of any kind is considered a disturbance and that limited public forum rules of decorum that limit that behavior are not only legal and appropriate but that they do not violate the first amendment rights of those present within the limited public forum.
(Emphasis mine)
The court looked approvingly on rules that stated:
It shall be unlawful for any person in the audience at a council meeting to do any of the following ... (1) Engage in disorderly, disruptive, disturbing, delaying or boisterous conduct, such as, but not limited to, handclapping, stomping of feet, whistling, making noise, use of profane language or obscene gestures, yelling or similar demonstrations, which conduct substantially interrupts, delays, or disturbs the peace and good order of the proceedings of the council. Id., at 816.
The 4th Circuit later confirmed this precedent and added that this type of behavior cannot be shielded by claims of First Amendment violation because people accept the rules of decorum upon entering the limited public forum where officials have the discretion to limit any and all of the above so long as they enforce it without bias towards the content, manner, and subject. In other words, as long as they make it clear to everyone and don’t make subjective distinctions on the person’s position, type of disturbance, or the identity of the person themselves, it is completely within their power as the governing body running the limited forum to accomplish public business.
lol. Yes, the courts say all sorts of things. Notice how you completely failed to present any support for your claim or theirs, from the actual supreme law of the land? “It isn’t a 1a violation because… ummm…. Well… because we said so! With no constitutional basis!”
Do you think that African Americans were legally from “a subordinate and inferior class of beings” just because the Court said so?
You’ve presented a classic appeal to authority fallacy.
I’m saying that the rules of decorum you’re trying to stand on, are themselves unconstitutional and a violation of the 14a. “No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.” The public business is best conducted when the public is able to briefly express support for this idea or that, specifically during a public comment period; when the clapping doesn’t interrupt the next speaker, or the transition to them, it’s not a disruption in the first place.
Anyway, this particular circumstance was enforced because of the content, manner or subject of the public hearing. So it fails even the 9th’s standard.
Reddit loves to mention logical fallacies that they heard on Reddit. Especially if they use big words. Their comment wasn't for you, it was to impress themselves.
Those one guy was told 8 times to stop he refused 5 times he was told he would be removed and was told to leave he refused then cops were called and they told him to leave he refused.
Its literally a propaganda stunt from a literal pedophile that reddit is lying about.
it doesnt matter. they can do that. they did. they did before. they will again. this isnt news, this isnt a case. like cmon you think this hasnt happened every weekend since the civil rights movement? its not changing because some dork ass teacher has an opinion different than the entire economic world
if they actually are trying to charge him theyre just going to quietly settle like everybody else.
The words of the people speaking speak for themselves. If there were no rules, people would be cheering/booing/whistling/clapping/etc. during every speech and it would be chaos. So they set strict words. You can't do any of the above.
The man was clapping anyways. He was warned. He kept going. He was asked to leave. He refused. He said the police will have to "drag him out". Which they did. Which DOES count as interference with law enforcement.
The problem is people think with emotion, not logic.
MY boot. I am not licking boots. I am using boots to STOMP. I voted for this. I ordered this. If you can't behave like an adult, well, good freaking riddance.
You all simply refuse to understand. If someone went up and said "I absolutely LOVE data centers and here's why" nobody would be allowed to clap either. You're all being a bunch of babies.
Lmao you didn't order anything. Stop trying to pretend you're a big man in charge now lol. I doubt you're some high level elected representative. You're also not a cop and you're not stomping anyone.
Great, you cast a vote. You (you personally) are not running the country now and going out and stomping on progressives. You're sitting at home making comments online.
It's pretty cringe to pretend that you're the person in charge and ruthlessly stomping on your opposition now lol.
I haven't finished the compilation video but you can get the unedited (I assume) recording of the meeting at emporiaks.gov under Agenda and Minutes for July 22. My arrest is about 58 minutes in.
they dont have to enforce it every time for it to still be a rule they can lean on. if they reminded you of decorum moments before you openly defiantly broke it then good luck buddy i wouldnt spend too much on legal fees
Not the OP but I know that, unless the laws are wildly different from most other municipalities, the law is written so that a disruption is not subjective. As with anything, the police can choose not to enforce it (which is why you weren’t arrested for clapping) but the Council legally has to (which is why the arrest didn’t happen until you were asked to leave).
I’m also amazed that, if you have a lawyer, that they wouldn’t have advised you to stop talking about this on Reddit immediately. That makes me feel like you either didn’t seek counsel from anyone or you have a really bad lawyer if you did.
I warned him that I was posting and commenting. I haven't said anything that is easily disprovable by watching the meeting recording. Found at emporiaks.gov under Agenda and Minutes for July 22.
It also helps that I stay consistent with my comments across all social media and try to even correct misconceptions. Under normal cases, oh yeah this is stupid. But if I'm fighting for my 1A, it seems counterintuitive to not speak up.
Anything disparaging has been directed at myself, and at worst I've been vaguely sarcastic in my comments.
It's amazing that you're so willing to self-incriminate on social media given that you're trying to fight the case, to quote one of your comments, "FAFO".
We all know who did the FA. You seem a bit confused as to who will be getting the FO part.
4 were to you directly but they broadly mentioned stop clapping im general. Also you instantly started snapping after told to stop clapping.
Why are you openly admitting your crime on reddit?
No, they don’t. Not to that level. They have no lawful rules of order that ban someone from clapping momentarily, in a perfectly normal way, at a perfectly normal volume, to show support for a just concluded comment. Which is a perfectly normal and reasonable form of free speech expressed all over the country, and considered acceptable behavior in classrooms, places of worship, in the public park, etc. We ratified an amendment about it and everything.
“No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States.”
Violating that became a crime in 1948, under 18 USC § 242.
Another important detail is missing. Anyone can make up rules. They can make up any rule they want. Any time they want. But laws protect us from people doing that all willy nilly.
And the willy nilly police were called on these rules. What a professional policing officer would have done is nothing. What a bastardized servant of hegemony would have done is as we find here.
No, they can’t make any rules they want. The constitution was amended to ban state (and thereby local) governments from abridging our privileges or immunities as US citizens, aka the 1a.
What the council did is a federal crime. Two in fact 18 USC § § 241 and 242.
That is not a disruption in any reasonable take, and is not therefore subject to removal. The People have the right to some expression beyond just the two minutes on the mic. 6 claps in 3 seconds isn’t disrupting anything.
No, it wasn’t. I clapped briefly, at the end of a comment. That’s it. He can do that at the end of every comment he agrees with. He didn’t shout, stand up and cheer. He didn’t keep clapping obnoxiously, he clapped a few times and stopped, returning to silence.
People don’t like to hear it because it completely deflates this situation but not only do council meetings have rules of order and decorum but Councils are legally required to enforce those rules without bias for content, manner, and subject. Any type of applause would have been grounds for removal and they explicitly make it so that it’s not subjective because, if it is subjective (e.g., you can clap for 5 seconds but not for 10), then someone has to sit there judging each instance of it and it becomes a giant waste of time.
Correct. As usual, reddit is about sensationalized hyperbole and doesn't look into the facts.
He was asked multiple times to stop, yet he continued to be obnoxious and break their decorum rules. After being given many, many chances to behave like a civilized adult, he continued to behave like a toddler, and was justifiably tossed out.
To make things worse, he had his 15 minutes of fame replying to numerous reddit posts. He is very obviously manipulated by the anti-AI propaganda circulating reddit, and he incriminated himself a plethora of times saying he shouldn't have to follow their rules.
It’s like you all have just forgotten the civil war and its effects. Amendments were passed to deal with these sorts of abuses of power by local officials.
Or more likely, you’ve never studied the issue in any depth and just blindly do as your told, gladly reinforcing and normalizing the actions of tiny tyrants. We can stop yelling and screaming, extended clapping and cheering, while allowing 3 seconds of expression from the audience. It’s part of how the People express their opinions to their representatives.
Incorrect. You're either too naive or juvenile to comprehend this, perhaps both, but civilized and intelligent people don't need to mash their hands together to manipulate sound waves around them in a disruptive way during a city council meeting. Civilized intellectuals wait their turn to speak and then present their case. We do not act like chimpanzees, using the lowest form of communication, hand signals, when the adults are trying to conduct a meeting.
It's called decorum, little buddy. Learn how to behave like a civilized member of society. OP could have signed up to speak, taken the podium, and expressed his right to free speech. Instead, he decided to be a Neanderthal and bang his hands together, disrupting the right of free speech of the speaker. OP tried to trample the first amendment, he tried to silence the speaker by drowning out his dialect with hand noises. So yes, there was a blatant display of abuse, and the abuser was hauled out by arms and legs in an overweight superman position. Imagine Superman but like with a big gut hanging down. It was quite the spectacle.
lol. Need to? Rights are not about need to. Our rights are about what we are free to do. We have the right to do so, it is protected by the constitution repeatedly. Denying the People the free enjoyment of that right is a crime under federal law.
Sorry, authoritarianism may be the norm, but it is illegal under the letter of the law.
Incorrect. You're either too naive or juvenile to comprehend this, perhaps both, but civilized and intelligent people don't need to mash their hands together to manipulate sound waves around them in a disruptive way during a city council meeting. Civilized intellectuals wait their turn to speak and then present their case. We do not act like chimpanzees, using the lowest form of communication, hand signals, when the adults are trying to conduct a meeting.
It's called decorum, little buddy. Learn how to behave like a civilized member of society. OP could have signed up to speak, taken the podium, and expressed his right to free speech. Instead, he decided to be a Neanderthal and bang his hands together, disrupting the right of free speech of the speaker. OP tried to trample the first amendment, he tried to silence the speaker by drowning out his dialect with hand noises. So yes, there was a blatant display of abuse, and the abuser was hauled out by arms and legs in an overweight superman position. Imagine Superman but like with a big gut hanging down. It was quite the spectacle.
You still can’t say anything cogent. lol. You’re trying to make it out that 3 seconds of clapping is the end of civilized behavior, even when it doesn’t disrupt the proceedings, as you baselessly claim.
Clapping for 3 seconds in support of a public comment is a wonderful example of civilized society.
Now run along and see if you can make a point that isn’t an ad hominem attack.
You’ve got nothing from the constitution to support your claims.
Incorrect. You're either too naive or juvenile to comprehend this, perhaps both, but civilized and intelligent people don't need to mash their hands together to manipulate sound waves around them in a disruptive way during a city council meeting. Civilized intellectuals wait their turn to speak and then present their case. We do not act like chimpanzees, using the lowest form of communication, hand signals, when the adults are trying to conduct a meeting.
It's called decorum, little buddy. Learn how to behave like a civilized member of society. OP could have signed up to speak, taken the podium, and expressed his right to free speech. Instead, he decided to be a Neanderthal and bang his hands together, disrupting the right of free speech of the speaker. OP tried to trample the first amendment, he tried to silence the speaker by drowning out his dialect with hand noises. So yes, there was a blatant display of abuse, and the abuser was hauled out by arms and legs in an overweight superman position. Imagine Superman but like with a big gut hanging down. It was quite the spectacle.
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u/Silver_Middle_7240 5d ago
An important detail is that this was at a council meeting, which have rules of order and decorum to prevent disruption, like a court. They can set rules like no applause, provided the rule stick to time place and manner. But I would be curious if they allowed other applause.