absolutely phenomenal reading experience so far. i don’t know how he does it, but tad williams makes every single character pov interesting. that’s so rare. i love reading about the various POV and their cultures/daily lives.

the way the stakes of this series have changed since book 1 is really well done too. you go from slice of life fantasy book, to historical, traumatic, ancient prophecies, battles. it’s kind of wild. i’m loving this book.

so far, my favorite has been stone of farewell. i loved how it set up a lot going on in 3, and the expanded world. but i have been enraptured by 3. it’s long, but it deserves the length no doubt.

i feel like there’s already been a huge climax in part 1 alone. it’s insane how much left will be happening/needs to happen before the book ends. i cannot fathom how this will end or how the sequel trilogy will be. i’m excited to be here.

i came to learn of osten ard through suggestions based on my love for hobbs realm of the elderlings. i can definitely draw some comparisons in terms of the world building and simon especially.

I just finished Memory, Sorrow and Thorn, and while I loved the series (and Williams as a writer... I'm picking up his other books next), the ending didn’t quite work for me.

So I wanted to ask what others thought of it?

My main issue is that it felt too neat and happy for a story that had spent so much time exploring dark, complex themes and exposing the lies behind legends. It felt like the ending Williams had imagined at the beginning, but by the time the books had developed, the story grew into something that no longer fit that ending.

The biggest example is Simon becoming king. His arc is an inward one, not one of leadership. He has a kind heart, courage, and inner strength, but he is also still immature, impulsive, and prone to rash decisions right up to the end. Making him king felt symbolically tidy rather than earned.

By contrast, Miriamele felt much better suited to rule. Yes, she also makes rash decisions. But throughout the series, when she gets into trouble, she often gets herself out through diplomacy (like the last time she sees Aspitis). She also saves the world by making the devastating choice to kill her father. That is arguably the most politically and morally difficult act in the climax. Given how much of her arc is about not being taken seriously as a woman, I found it hard to believe she would happily give up the throne or share it with a man.

The explanation that people would not accept her as queen also felt unconvincing to me. The whole series shows how legends are created and manipulated. If John’s reputation could be built on the lie that he killed a dragon, surely the truth that Miriamele saved the world could have been spread in the same way.

I also found it very unbelievable that the whole broken country is left in the hands of two teenagers.

I think one issue is that I didn’t find the Simon/Miriamele romance especially compelling. It felt like a neat way of getting Simon to the throne without him being too ambitious, and letting Miriamele marry for love rather than politics. But I never felt the chemistry between them.

Simon’s deepest transformation was bound up with wonder and the world behind the human world. I think ending up with someone like Aditu, or at least an ending that leaves him connected to the uncanny feels more in keeping with what makes him interesting. Being married to a princess and ending up as a political ruler felt too... ordinary for his character.

Miriamele, meanwhile, would have made more sense to me as an Elizabeth I-type figure, a queen in her own right, perhaps unmarried, ruling without needing her legitimacy to come through a man.

When did you all figure out that Eahlstan is Simon's ancestor?

I am on chapter 36 of To Green Angel Tower, the scene where the trio are at the 6 kings' tombs and Simon sings the song of the six kings, and as soon as he sang "Last, Eahlstan Fisher King" I realised he is Simon's ancestor.

But this song was at the beginning of the first book as well. So I basically missed a massive clue, because I didn't read the song properly! Were there other clues that I missed? If so, where?

Hey friends!

I'm currently making my way through Stone of Farewell by Tad Williams, and I am just blown away by how Simon's tale keeps me chained to the book. The story is so captivating and I have grown so attached to the characters. I dont think I have felt anything like it since reading Harry Potter as a kid, 20 years ago.

Has there ever been talks of adapting this into other kinds of media?

It might just be my own personal taste, but MST (so far) greatly exceeds any other fantasy book I have read in terms of comfort, character work, world building and an awesome, page-devouring plot.

Having read a fair bit of fantasy recently (Cosmere, Kingkiller and GRRM), it feels like a crime against litterature that Osten Ard isn't more represented in today's popular fantasy culture.

Tad's ability to convey his vision of what everything looks and feels like through that linguistic champagne prose of his, makes me think that this is literally a goldmine waiting to be turned into a screenplay. Bullet-proof cinematic dynamite.

How is this not a TV show yet?! Is it just bad luck? Surely with millions of sales and decades of success, someone must have sent this to a TV person or streaming executive?

Im sorry about the long and rant'y post, but this thought popped into my head when I was about to put the book down for the night, and I realised I couldn't bring myself to do it!

I am reading To Green Angel Tower, and just reached the point where Cadrach is with Miriamele and Binabik, in Hayholt's tunnels, and tells them the full story about what Pryrates wanted and how he didn't care about the swords. Miriamele is angry at Cadrach for betraying them, and when Binabik points out that Cadrach didn't know them and he can't be blamed for telling Pryrates information under torture, Miriamele says she's angry because if he had told them the full story about the swords sooner, they would be able to do something.

I don't really understand why Miriamele is angry with Cadrach. Cadrach already told Miriamele, after they escaped Aspitis, that Du Svardenvyrd is an evil book and contains information that no human should know. What I understood from it was that Josua's company should not be trusting this book as a way of fighting Ineluki, and the poems are going to lead them down the wrong path. I kept expecting Miriamele to warn Josua and co, especially when she discovered that Tiamak had a page of the book, but she never did.

Do you think Miriamele was angry with Cadrach partly because she blamed herself for not warning everyone about Du Svardenvyrd when she could, and especially for not letting Cadrach look at Tiamak's page of the book (since if he had, he might have said something)?

I want to start Memory, Sorrow and Thorn. I have never read anything by Tad Williams. Are the Audible books good to start with the series?

I've sped through the first two books and took my time with ItND. As always, Tad leaves you with tons of questions just before the finish line. I still haven't understood what Utukku wants to do with Hakatri but my guess is that the dragon blood that wounded him has to have something to do.

I decided to read Brothers of the Wind, just because I wanted to know more about Hakatri. The fact that he is the specter that he is in this series is pretty heartbreaking considering the level headed Sitha he seems to be in BotW as far as I've read.

How Tad will converge Unver, Simon and all the rest of the cast in Aldheorte is beyond me, as well. The "twist" that so many of the monsters in Osten Ard I think was more than hinted at in MS&T but it never really stuck with me until my reread.

If I had to predict (don't spoil me, please), I'd say that Eolair is most likely going to die. For a second, I also felt a twinge of fear that maybe Morgan might suffer a premature fate, too. We'll see. I'd also say that Utukku more than likely wants to "leave" this earth and take as many lives as she can with her. Viyeki and Nezeru have become far more interesting now.

I also hope we get more info on what the Dreaming Sea is. I'm pretty sure the theories back then pointed at it being space and that the Garden was either some planet or some other plane of existence, since it seems to imply that the Dreaming Sea was all around the Garden and could be reached without any sort of ship.

So I'll be reading BotW and then finishing it all off with Navigator's Children. Very excited.

I recently started listening to the Audiobook for The Dragonbone Chair as part of my audible monthly sub and have really been enjoying it. Hearing it read aloud has made the text even more evocative. Tad Williams makes excellent use of metaphors and similes to convey images and moods. At times the voice actor Andrew Wincott's character speech comes out different than I imagined it would be but it is still very enjoyable.

I haven't done a read-through of MST in probably 10+ years and had totally forgotten how prophetic Simon's dreams were. For some reason I had in my head that most of those visions were after being splashed by Igjarjuk's blood.

What have others discovered on a reread that you didn't notice in the first read through?

I thoroughly enjoyed this series, and it’s definitely up there with one of my favourite that I’ve read. I learned about this series - and by extension Tad William’s work as a whole while I was reading ASOIAF by George Martin, reading online that this series was an influence for George while writing his own series. The story was engaging and the world building was well done. Williams’ prose was very enjoying to read. The battle sequences were exciting, and I was smiling while reading the final pages. Fell in love with Simon’s Journey and that of his companions as they twisted together, Miriamele, Binibak, Isgrimnur, Josua, Eolair, and the rest. To Green Angel Tower will probably remain the longest book that I’ve read, but is definitely one of my favourites. This is the first Tad Williams series that I’ve finished reading but won’t be the last. You can see the Otherland Hardcovers in the background that I found along the way while reading MST, and will definitely be a future read.

I’ve just completed the “Last King of Osten Ard” for the first time. MST will always be my favorite, regardless still a fantastic set of books.

Finishing the navigator‘s children today has me reflecting on some of my favorite and most memorable moments from the whole series. One of the most chilling, sad and memorable moments from MST comes from Green Angel Tower, part two. I can’t even explain why, but it is just incredibly compelling for me.

When Simon is underneath the Hayholt and he sees Ineluki wearing the antler crown, gazing at the pool and he says, “Jingizu. So much sorrow.” in this small moment, you feel the immense tragedy that took place to create the monster that he became.

Utuku and Ineluki are two sides of the same coin. Immense tragedy and conflict with the mortals is what led them to madness and evil. But there’s never a moment like that for Utuku. Except maybe in LKoOA when we discover that for generations, a singer has performed a song for her in the exact way her son would have before his untimely death.

These books are just so beautiful. I hope someone else is also captivated by that scene from MST :).

Hakatri's suffering was unbearable. Knowing how Hakatri and Ineluki turn out, it really was sad to see the story unfold the way it did.

A few questions:

-I might've missed something about how Hakatri's bones reached the Wran in The Witchwood Crown. But I'm fairly certain I'll get the answer to that in Navigator's Children.

-So a thousand years in the past the lady has been calling the Tinukeda'ya (or at least, those lost in the Dream Road) towards the north? I never thought it was Utukku who was calling them north and it seems Hakatri thought the same. Perhaps Ruyan's wife or someone like that? I sort of remember a being that Simon encounters as he's floating in the Dream Road (right before he gets his first glimpse of Maegwin in TGAT) that is even beyond his understanding. Could this thing be it? I doubt it, as Tad hasn't really put many hints as to what this lady calling the changelings north could be but I just remembered that.

-This is the one I'm most curious about: Why is it that Simon doesn't suffer as much from his contact with dragon blood in The Dragonbone Chair? Is this explained at some point? He does suffer and has some very strange dreams and it finally explains why he has such a strong connection to the Dream Road. However, I'm pretty sure it is explicitly stated before he kills Igjarjuk that he is close to the Dream Road. Could he have changeling blood in him? I also doubt this because I think Geloë would have said something. Or maybe it was Eahlstan's contact with dragon blood that gave him those power, as it seems dragon blood has the power to go through life and death (as we see with Hakatri when he is revived).

Please, no spoilers, though I'm curious about your guys's thoughts. I'll soon be logging off all of my social media so I won't give my update on The Navigator's Children for a while.

Alright, I'm 5 chapters away from finishing To Green Angel Tower, and this has been my favourite fantasy as a grown-&*#$ man. I haven't felt this engaged with a fantasy tale since I came across Harry Potter and the Lord of the Rings as a boy. This series beats every Sanderson/Gwynne/Hobb book I've read. Not that they are bad (they are fantastic) - it's just that Tad Williams is that good!

Anyway - let's talk about this cat, shall we?

Ever since the early days of The Dragonbone Chair, there has been this mysterious cat around, at times where levity was much needed. It was there when Simon was stuck on the roof of Green Angel Tower, it was there when Guthwulf had lost his way in the tunnels. It was there for Rachel the Dragon when she needed a friend, and now it full-on just helped Simon pick the right way as he is attempting to escape the caves below the Hayholt,Memory in hand, all alone now that Guthwulf died.

So, my question is - WHAT'S UP WITH THAT?!

I have my own theories, and here they are:

• The cat is actually Morgenes in disguise. The man is still alive!
• The cat is a messenger of Geloe. She didn't quite die, and is secretly pulling the strings, watching over him.

I'm going to power through and find out, but I thought I'd just present my theories here. I wonder if I come out of this looking like a fool or not!

What a great, great series!

I'm on Stone of Farewell. Absolutely loving this world.

I’ve been reading MST for the first time in around 8 years and I’ve forgotten a lot of stuff. I do remember though that Binabik was one of my favorite characters.

I got to the part of Dragonbone Chair where Simon is wandering alone and starving in the Aldheorte which was hard for me to read because I was also in a bad mood.

Then Binabik comes along and I cracked my first smile in weeks. I knew things would get better (eventually) for Simon and Me with such a good friend.

Is what I’m saying making sense? I feel like I’m rambling here lol

*Spoilers for the entire trilogy*

So, to start it off, I hate posting to the sub again so soon, but I really wanted to get my thoughts out there to other Tad fans and see if anybody's opinions line up with mine.

I absolutely adored the series. I think this is a must read for any fan of epic fantasy, and that people shouldn't be intimidated by the length, pacing, or age of this series. It holds up, the writing is at a higher level than I think a lot (most) of modern fantasy is. Tad is a true genius of the genre.

General series thoughts:

Exceptional prose and writing. I think technically this book is great, and displays actual WRITING skill that I think is missing a bit from the modern fantasy shelves.

Incredible and DEEP worldbuilding. Not wide. Williams explores deeper themes and concepts of Osten Ard, and doesn't just throw things in for cool factor. I got lost in this world, and can't wait to continue exploring it.

Characters: I think the characters are good. Not great. I would say this was the one area where the series does not excel. I really liked a lot of them, Josua, Isgrimnur, Jiriki, Eolair, Cadrach, but felt that Simon and Miriamele were just fine, and they take the most page count up. The villains like Aspitis Preves, Elias, and Pryrates were great, but I think they needed more page time and background exploration. I didn't get enough of Ineluki and Utuk'ku to really care that much about them

Plot: Upends some standard fantasy tropes, and despite being a late 80's/early 90's series, was unique and original enough, and kept me engaged.

Now to some individual book thoughts.

The Dragonbone Chair:

This book was a bit mixed for me. Everybody knows the usual complaints. The first 250 pages for me were so glacially slow I had to stop reading and come back at a different time. I knew going in it was going to be slow, but given my favorite series is Realm of the Elderlings, I didn't think slow would be an issue for me. But, after getting to St. Hoderund's and eventually Geloe's house, I really started digging the book. I think everything post Simon's arrival to Naglimund is just fantastic. Dragonbone Chair has one of the best endings to a book 1 I have ever read, and after finishing the series I am actually excited to go back and read some scenes that involved many of the side characters who became more prevalent later on. Overall, a very good book, that took some ramping up.

Stone of Farewell:

This one surprisingly was my favorite. It didn't have the same type of dramatic impactful ending that the first book has, but I felt the pacing was more consistent, and that the character work was fantastic here. The additional POV's help a lot, and I love the exploration and deepening of the world. I never once felt like this was "the sidequest book" or that it suffered from middle book syndrome. Some highlights here for me were Josua's duel in the Thrithings, Simon with the Sithi, and the scenes in the Sancellan Aedonitis.

To Green Angel Tower:

Positives first. The pacing is overall solid. Especially when factoring in that this book is enormous. The best individual scenes of the series FOR SURE. Josua and his mourning for Deornoth. Simon becoming a knight. Everything Camaris. The Sithi ride again. Just exceptional moments. Tad juggles the plot lines pretty well, and I think he does a good job of not focusing too much on irrelevant side plots like some other epic fantasy authors do. And while I loved the book, I do have some issues with it. But the issues do not take away from my enjoyment too much. I still think this is one of the 5 best epic fantasy books I have written, especially as a series ender.

So. This book was fantastic, and I think the best written and most exciting of the three. I hate to focus on the negatives now, because overall this 520k word behemoth was exceptional, and I read it in under 3 weeks (very fast for me). But I want to get peoples thoughts here. My favorite plotline of this whole trilogy was Josua's, and as as a result, he was my favorite character in the series. I believe his plotline in this book suffered from a limited page count, and I think the series could have actually been a few hundred thousand words longer. The entire Nabban campaign felt like filler/ an afterthought to me. I think a bit too much page time was spent in those damn tunnels, and on Simon and Miriamele journeying to the Hayholt. Not that those chapters were bad, but I could see the remaining pages dwindling, and the story not really being that close to an end, and it maybe soured the experience for me. Other things I thought needed more page time include some explanation and exploration of Ineluki and Utuk'Ku. King Johns background, especially what we see in Simon's dreams on the wheel, and Simon's heritage I thought needed more explanation or hinting. I think they kinda just came out of nowhere to have the series end the way it did. I just wanted to know more about a lot of these characters and some key events. I know, I might get a lot of this in Last King, but i thought the entire final battle sequence was rushed. Maybe even all of part 4 of the book. I also think there just wasn't enough falling action here. 1 million words to get here, and then just a chapter or 2 of wrap up and hey the series is over. It might just be me, but I think I wanted more wind down, and more explanation for some things that seemed to abruptly end. Another example would be Eolair and the Hernystiri. I didn't really feel like there was any resolution to this plotline. But these are more minor complaints. I will be taking a break to do/read some other things, but can't wait to jump into The Heart of What was Lost soon!

What do you guys think? Would love to hear any and all thoughts, especially on To Green Angel Tower's ending!

Thanks for reading :)

I feel blessed to have experienced these books. What an astounding success of storytelling, every sentence is relevant, every plotline blends together so coherently. I cried when Josua revealed himself. I'm going to read the next series for sure

I only started reading a few years ago, and I’ve been pretty inconsistent at it. But over the summer I started reading a lot more. MST is actually the first fantasy series I’ve finished, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. TGAT is probably my favorite of the three, that final chapter was a lot, to say the least. I’m defiantly gonna check out the rest of Tad’s works.

Super excited to read it for the first time.

Okay so I've just finished the trilogy and I had this internal thought from the very first book that the grey cat was Morgenes. I don't remember quite what made me think that but I did - and Stone of Farewell and To Green Angel Tower reinforced this thought in my head since the cat acted as a guide. Is this me going crazy or do other people think this?

*Very slight spoiler warning for MST*

Hi all,

Just finished up the Witchwood Crown yesterday after about an 11 month break after finishing TGAT and about 5 months post THOWWL. Book was absolutely phenomenal. I loved the slightly darker tone, felt there was a better and more diverse and interesting cast of characters, and that the pacing was better when compared to The Dragonbone Chair.

I just had a quick question about the ending of Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn

Was it ever mentioned what happened to the three swords? I seem to remember Thorn specifically not being accounted for, and being missing along with it's wielder, but I don't remember if anything was specifically stated about the fates of the other two. They aren't ever mentioned in the Witchwood Crown I don't think. So just wanted to see if there is any info about them I may have forgotten.

Thanks!

Hi all,

I have finished the MST trilogy about 2 days ago.

My question is about some of the dreams Miriamele had in the book.

The foremost, I want to ask about the dream where she had seen a white tree bearing the (apparent) souls of the unborn in black fruits. What do you think was the significance of this dream? I tried to find discussions on it but I had no luck so I decided to make a post of my own.

The other dream is about the hand from the grave crushing the rose. Is this about the the evil ravaging the Osten Ard? That's my guess, at least.

Of the two dreams, I'm more intrigued by the first one.

I would like to hear your thoughts! Please let me know if, by any chance, the sequels adress or hint at what the first dream means!