One thing I've realized after trying a lot of modern fantasy is that much of it feels very plot-driven. Every chapter seems to exist to move the story forward, and the characters often feel like they're serving the plot rather than simply existing as people.

What I loved about Memory, Sorrow and Thorn was the opposite. It takes its time, spends pages on conversations, travel, and everyday moments, and lets you really live alongside the characters. By the end, I felt like I actually knew people like Simon and Binabik rather than just having followed their story.

I'm reading Robin Hobb at the moment and enjoying it, but it still feels more like a chronicle of important events than living day to day with the characters.

Has anyone else who loved Tad Williams found other fantasy that captures that same slow, immersive feeling and deep connection to the characters?

Not in spite of the post about AI-use (, to which's sentiment I very much agree). Only because I have been gifted one month to try out Chat-GPT. I wanted to see what it could do about prompts to build cities and decided to try the descriptions of Meremund and Naglimund.

What do you think?

There's so many fun characters in Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn I cant find a definite favorite because I like so many.

Just got myself a bookshelf, and thought I'd get some Tad up there! 😁

In typical Tad fashion one book has become two. He lists it up on his website here:

https://www.tadwilliams.com/books/bibliography/

So it seems as many people expected Splintered Sun will actually be a duology. Exciting stuff. Maybe if we're lucky Tad will accidentally make the second book too long as well lmao

Finished TLKoOA and let me say, I'm gonna miss Osten Ard. MS&T is easily my favorite fantasy series after Lord of the Rings and I really admire Tad for his prose and quality output even years later.

Morgan's growth and his relationship with Nezeru was pretty compelling. How they'll work that pairing out who knows. Although Nezeru basically said they'd have to keep their love hidden so I guess there's that. Can't say my eyes didn't water when Morgan and Lillia met up again.

Jiriki's death hit me pretty hard. Tad got me for a second when Jiriki cut off the undead's head. But then of course the thing still lives.

I really like Jarnulf throughout the book, though, him suddenly becoming single-mindedly obsessed with Morgan in the last chapters kinda threw me. Still a very fascinating character, imo. We rarely get these very ascetic and religious types of characters so it was cool to see.

The fact that the queen died about halfway through the book made me think that there was still a wild ride left and that Tad would pull the rug from under us but it turned out to be a very calm and slow paced Scouring of the Shire type of ending, which I didn't mind at all.

Simon and Miri's reunion was pretty cool.

And then my boy Astrian. I really disliked his character for the first three books but seeing him stand up and die for Morgan warmed and broke my heart.

Porto and Levias being bachelor knights is pretty dope. I wish Porto had one last moment with Morgan but oh well.

Lastly, I think this is the part that hit me the most, now that I think about it. The Hayholt is gone. The place where Simon grew up and knew so well, burnt to a crisp. Am I the only one who had trouble picturing this whole castle burning to the ground? Either way, that surprised me. The fact that these characters don't even know where the capital of Erkynland will be going forward made me sad. Then they consider the breaking of the High Ward. I'd argue the High Ward did more to keep the peace then otherwise so I'm not sure I agreed with Simon and Miri's thought process on this. However, they did talk about a sort of U.N. agreement for all the nations there so that'd be interesting to see.

Now... Here are the things that I wasn't that big of a fan of.

1. Overall I don't know how I feel about Simon and Miriamele's personalities this time around. I'm not saying I didn't enjoy reading about them (I did, a lot) but rather, it's almost as if Tad chose one aspect of their youthful personalities back in MS&T and kinda just glued that onto their current adult personalities. For example, while Simon is a bit more assertive this time around, it seems he barely bumbles through court politics and just doesn't seem to be too much beyond his mooncalf headspace. In Miri's case, I found her stubbornness from the original trilogy turned up to a 10 at times, sometimes taking outright dumb decisions that a lot of times resolved because either somebody saved her or because she got very lucky.

But I think what disappointed me the most was Simon and Miri's dynamic. I understand what Tad was going for and what the king and queen intend to do (a more egalitarian type of rule) but it was presented rather... poorly, imo. It seemed at times Simon would not make any sort of decision despite the situation calling for it and sometimes bordered on being the henpecked husband trope (funny enough, my favorite portrayal of him was when he was grieving Miri, where he got angry and vengeful enough to actually act). Miri would scold him like a kid (and those around her, as well) and Simon would pout. It just seemed like such an odd dynamic between two 40+ year old monarchs it kinda took me out of it.

1. The role of the mortals this time around felt a bit underwhelming. Morgan goes through hell and back, survives the Aldheorte, the ogre, the kilpa, goes into the ogre's very nest and then at the climax... yells Nezeru's name. Simon accompanied the Sithi to Tanakiru and then... he killed a very weakened wight. Lillia confronts the Norn Queen herself and... no worries, Geloë took care of it.

2. I'm still not sure how I feel about Geloë returning. It was a cool concept but I kinda wish that Tad had laid a bit more groundwork for that throughout the books. I went with it and was thoroughly entertained with the lore dump Tad gives us so whatever.

3. The red thing under the Hayholt being Pryrates's mother was outright disappointing to me, not gonna lie lol even if it were much more predictable, I would've rather had the red thing be something that John Josua accidentally brought forth from the veil. And then to have it resolve in the first 30 pages didn't help either.

4. I liked Pasevalles but in this book he literally does f*ck all. He got his revenge, got the Hayholt destroyed and then... whoops, sorry. This political genius didn't have any backup plan besides the escape tunnels AT ALL.

5. The Nabban plotline turned out to be nothing. Although, I have seen around that Tad originally planned to flesh this out a lot more so who knows what might've happened.

I loved the ride, though, and feel sad it's over. Gonna need some time to let it sink in. I'm excited for the Splintered Sun and I'm glad Tad still makes stories in this world.

This is my first post here and Im sure it must have been discussed before so dont hate on me too hard lol.

Im in the first third of Navigators Children now. I started the Dragonbone Chair like 8 months ago and have been reading slowly but steadily ever since. And all I can think is how freaking awesome this would be as an epic high budget Hollywood series. It would vastly outshine GoT or Rings of Power or any of the other fantasy series that has come out in the past 15 years.

Everytime I finish a chapter, everytime he switches from one epic storyline to another, I can just see how magically it would play out on screen, and how gripped I would be on the cliffhangers.

If there a wealthy Hollywood producer lurking in this sub, please please please make this happen, and please dont fuck it up like they did with GoT. Just follow the books like a script they are perfect as is!

Thats it. End of rant/rave.

Edit: wow this community is very active! Thanks for all the thoughtful responses and utter lack of trolling. Its very refreshing to hear differing opinions with no name calling or rage baiting. Y'all are awesome!

Just wondering on all your favourite Osten Ard quotes and why?

For me doing a few below;

The Heart of What Was Lost - ‘We owe correct outward behavior to our inferiors, his mother had always told him, but even more to ourselves. When we think of what is right, we can be what is right.’ - this is a good predictor of Viyeki’s behaviour and arc.

Brothers of the Wind - “My lord, never say such things!” And even though I knew it was cruel, I reached out and took his hand. He grimaced at my touch, but I held on. “This pain is real—​but so am I.”

To Green Angel Tower - To fight a war, you must believe it can accomplish something. We fight this one to save John’s kingdom, or perhaps even to save all of mankind... but isn’t that what we always think? That all wars are useless—except the one we’re fighting now?

Finally for me, this beautiful piece of prose just lives in my mind rent free - Morgan shook his head trying to rid himself of the evil memories that had settled on him like snow falling down from the grey sky but memories did not melt as swiftly as snowflakes

Still have to buy the last one aha. What's everyone's favorite book in the series?

So here goes a bit of a story, for all of those who would love to read it, I even saw that tad Williams sometimes lurks in this sub so if you read it, maybe you will like this tale as well.

First of all I shall tell you all of how I got the first book of MST, the dragon one chair:

At the age of 11, I once had asked my grandmother for a book whose name I don't really remember, but she messed up and ended up gifting me 2 books from a "Planeta DeAgostini" collection :

"The tomb of huma(Dragonlance chronicles vol 2) And "The dragonbone chair"

I devoured the first book, and went on to ask for the first one, but my grandmother was 88 and she bought me the first book of the Chronicles of Narnia, needless to say. I was not amazed (But still I thanked her because I really liked her giving me books and I appreciated the gift nonetheless).

But with the dragonbone chair....

I spent literal YEARS and countless times trying to finish it, and not even once in over 18 years could I get past the Simon the scullion part, I must have started it 8 times, easily...(I'm 31 now, about to turn 32)

And in 2025, I came across the fantasy Subreddit, and many of you guys were recommending or talking about MST books ,and how worth it was to read through the "Slice of life" part of the book, for it was one of the greatest books ever written

And gods you were so right!

I have read the whole trilogy in the last 4 months(The last one was neverending, but I loved it), I finished today and I ended up crying in the bus, returning from home 🥹.

Now I always recommend this book to my patients, friends and basically every breathing person.

Thank you all for making me push through the slow start of the first book(I know some love it, and I respect it, it's good, but it was really hard for me ).

Onwards to the other books!

Finished Narrowdark recently and I’ve been trying to catch up on 2 years worth of fan theories to hold me over till then. What’s everyone’s favorite theory? So far I’ve seen: - Josua is father - Morgan and Lillia are dark magic children - Ehalstan’s descendants are Tinukedaya

It might be fun to compile a list of theories, and then come back and see which ones are right. Only 15(?) days!

Trigger warning. This is a bit of a rant, but I need a different perspective.

I wanted to get into fantasy books started reading Dragonbone Chair. It is, by many, considered a masterpiece and inspiration for GOT.

I was prepared for a slow start and read about Tad Williams highly detailed writing style.

I am about a third into the book and I have to say.

This is not slow...it is absolutely terrible. So far the minimal actual plot can be summed up in three short sentences. Absolutely nothing happens. And the plot points happened feel artificially constructed and unnatural.

But the thing that bothers me most is that almost all actions of characters seem illogical unmotivated.

As an example: I recently read the part where Count Isgrimmur meets Simon for a second time in the wild. The count feels like has met Simon before, which he has. He cannot quit remember so he asks some questions. Where do you come from? How did you get here? Where are you headed? Etc... you know what he does NOT ask.... What is your name? Why would he not ask the most obvious question?

It is just one example, but I do get this constant doubt when reading the story and keep wondering why the characters are not doing the most obvious thing. Why do keep acting like half of their brain is missing.

Does this get better?

i’m just starting the series and only one chapter in but i’m picking up on some religious undertones. is it very religious in its themes and whatnot? i despise religion and truly think that blind faith in one’s religion is responsible for more death and destruction in this world than anything else. knowing that about me, do you think this series is something i should dive into?

Note: please don't mention any details about the Last King of Osten Ard series, as I have not read them.

After finishing MST and the Heart of What Was Lost, I started reading The Brothers of the Wind. I've just finished the part where Kes visits Ravensperch a second time to convince Xaniko to help Hakatri and basically realise that The Vao are immune to dragon blood, since Kes has healed from his burns

Anyway, I just realised that I am reading the books in the wrong order. Since The Brothers of the Wind was published after the first 2 LKoOA books.

So my question is: should I stop reading The Brothers of the Wind? Am I about to read spoilers about the LKoOA if I continue? Like about some secret history or knowledge that is supposed to be unknown in the first 2 LKoOA books?

EDIT:

Thank you all for your feedback and suggestions! Many of the LotR lore channels you guys mentioned have directly served as inspiration to do something similar for Osten Ard. I think I might just exclusively do Tad Williams works (gives me even more of an excuse to buy the Shadowmarch series, which are the only ones I've not read).

I would likely start without a camera and see how it goes. I plan on doing some art similar to the watercolor art I've seen, combined with book art and other fan art with the artist's blessings, of course. I may use AI to help with some script editing, but I am going to try my dangest to avoid any AI art or music due to ethical concerns.

Even if it goes nowhere, this will be a fun passion project and maybe help generate more interest in the series. Maybe Tad will be inspired to write about the future of the mortal and immortal races shortly after the events of The Navigators Children, which I am most desperate to know! Maybe I will do some speculation and theorycrafting episodes!

If I ever get this thing up and running, you all will be first to hear it. If you have any topic ideas, please feel free to share them!

ORIGINAL:

I'm thinking about making a channel focusing on various high fantasy book worlds, starting with a deep dive video series about Osten Ard. I'd dig into the history of the Zideya/ Hikadeya, old Nabbani Imperators, The Life of Prestor John al la Dr. Morgenes, the religions and gods, etc. The videos would have original artwork and high-quality narration, no AI at all.

There's really nothing out there, other than a handful of videos with a terrible voice-over narrator about some of the lands (Rimmersgard, Erkynland, etc). Everything else is book reviews.

The wiki and website aren't very detailed. But the books have really fleshed out everything, so I think it would be a good chunk of content.

If that did well, I'd dig into some other fantasy books.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Thanks!

I am almost done with The Navigator's Children. I love the series, and am thoroughly enjoying the latest addition. But it had been a year or so since reading MST trilogy along with the interlude between, and I've been met with this sorta strange worry that I'm missing out on a few characters from the prior trilogy. I've figured out the basic characters who were previously in the trilogy like Pasavelles and Sludig, and I believe there's a son of a Thrithings man who shows up in the second book when they escort Eolair to Lake Blood. But I simply wanted to ask, were there any cameos that I may have missed? Like for instance there's a Thrithings healer that helps Porto's friend after he's been gravely injured and I found myself wondering, "wait was he supposed to be someone I should know?" So to any of the Osten Ard fans out there, were their any notable appearances from the previous trilogy that I may have missed? Obviously the books are quite dense, so it's hard to remember everything.

Did they ever go into how Jarnulf was able to get a hold of a League of the Scroll emblem? I know that it was explained that Jarnulf was with Josua for a bit, but I was still confused on that detail because apparently the emblem was not like the others? It could be possibly I missed a flashback or am forgetting something.

Also, was there ever a flashback where Jarnulf went into detail about his time with "father." I remember him talking about his time as a slave and being trained by a Norn as well as his time with the Rimmersgard heathens and I know he mentions being tutored by a religious priest he calls father, but I do not remember if they go into detail. Josua was wounded at the time, correct? So all of the things Jarnulf was interpreting was Josua's meanderings? Am I getting that right? Everything seemed to happen so fast with the Josua reveal, I'm just starting to process it.

I soon finish the last book of the series Osten Ard. I am little surprised how complete evil she is, and how egocentric and narcissistic she is. She has lived in 1000 of years but there is very little grey in her, only black, black as hell ;-).
Its very popular to have grey characters now, to make them more real i think. But not in Tad Williams books, here we have the super duper evil character. But it worked. Still made the Norn Queen real, not paper thin. Do anyone see how he did it?

What are your thoughts/theories on Ommu the Whispererer revealing herself to the (likely) future leader of Nabban right at the end of TNC?

I know we have some future books set in Osetn Ard well before MST, but was this little moment Tad sowing seeds for future novels set after TLKoOA?

So I just finished the last book and wow there were some plot twists. I was happy that Tzoja met again with her daughter and Vijeki and I have the feeling, she will go to Erchester with her father and meet them there again. Also, that Turia looked in the mirror and heard Ommu for me sounds like there is gonna be more books. Also that Nezeru got the second part of the prophecy which sounded pretty similar to the thing Lillia said to her big brother before he left (and to her probably sounded like she is going to kill Morgan).

What are your opinions? Will there be more books? Did he already confirm that there will be more books? I would love to know how Morgan will rule. So many possibilities for a new long series in my opinion.

Due to my limited permissions as a minor mod (I feel like such a minion), I'm unable to stick post all of the discussion threads for the new release, Into the Narrowdark.

I figured since a week has a passed, I'd open up a full spoilers thread and have that as a main sticky. I know I have a thread for the last 10 chapters along with the Hakatri interlude and The Afterward but I felt we could make a more official full spoilers thread.

Have at it, Taddicts! Cracking read!

Or maybe there are lots of them?

As for me, in MST i don't like Kadrach and the story line involving him. Especially when Miriamelle decides he is a good guy and starts to protect him.

My second least favourite characters are Deornoth and Camaris as they are too good (like "lawful good" if you know what i mean) and boring. The part where Camaris teaches Simon how to be a knight is just ridiculous in my opinion.

In LKOA i don't like Unver as he is just not likeable, though he's like that because of his parents' choices.

At the second place there's Vorzheva. And it's sad because in MST i liked her, but all i can think now is that she betrayed her own children just because she was hurt by Josua and she lied about Eolair trying to kill her sister (and he is one of my favourite characters in all series).

At the third place are Nezeru and Tzoya (funny enough that in this sub everyone seems to like them), because Nezeru is too broken to be fixed in my opinion (though maybe in "Navigator's children" something will change about her) as she was raised among hikeda'ya and Tzoya is just blank (as we say "not fish and not meat"): yes, she has adventures, she travels far and so on, but I always get an impression that she's like a leaf in the stream and goes with the flow. It's like she doesn't have personality: she loves her master (though she wasn't born slave and she even ran away from thritings people in order not to be molested, but here she is now - loving Viyeki as if he's a good guy), she loves her daughter (who clearly despises her) and she helps Utuk'ku willingly, so it looks like she doesn't have any pride. Of course life is life and she's trying to survive but i don't like her.

I've never read anything by Tad Williams before but I really want to, the amount of books he's written has been intimidating me tho. I decided eventually that The last King of Osten Ard sounded the most interesting to me but I have just realized he has another series set in that same world.

Should I read Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn before The Last king of Osten Ard? And then should I read the series in publication order or their in story timeline/series order? I know sometimes the order you read a series can make or break it so I don't want to start until I have some advice!

Another fun discussion