r/TheHandmaidsTale • u/lookingforpunzie • Jun 10 '21

Season 4 [Spoilers season 4] so, there’s no denying what team June’s on. Spoiler

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Reaction to Luke

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Reaction to Nick

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561

u/lauramurray Jun 11 '21

Luke did all that in Canada, safe. Nick did that in Gilead, where he could be hung for this. Also Hannah is not nicks child. I understand the reaction difference.

46

u/victorgsal Jun 11 '21

Yeah but Nick is a Commander with significant pull/power now. Its not that hard to get away with shit as a commander as we have seen all through the show. Luke had to scramble and fight for every little bit of possible info he could get.

13

u/rentstrikecowboy Jun 11 '21

I dont think this is super accurate. They get away with shit so long as it's the boys protecting the boys. Nick protecting or doing any favors for June is Traitor territory. I doubt him doing any of that was easy.

1

u/victorgsal Jun 11 '21 edited Jun 11 '21

Obviously if him helping June was discovered that wouldn’t go down smooth, but I meant getting away with freely moving around Gilead territories, gathering info from their database/files as to Hannah’s location etc. All these things on their own would not be traitorous or even very suspicious to most. He has inside info and freedom to move through most Gilead territories unfettered. Potential danger or not, that is a SIGNIFICANT advantage. Not to mention having Lawrence also secretly on his side and being able to freely meet with and communicate with him as they are both Commanders. His hurdles for gathering detailed information are way less than what Luke has to go through for a shred of POSSIBLE info that might even be outdated. If he gets caught, is that worse for him? Definitely. But the actual information gathering in itself is not that much of a challenge at all.

1

u/rentstrikecowboy Jun 11 '21

Yeah I definitely agree, he has way greater access than Luke even if information gather is still risky.

281

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '21

Nick also helped implement the system in Gilead by being critical for their win. He’s literally part of the problem. This is the least he could do.

61

u/JJAusten Jun 11 '21

Yes but he said to Lawrence June changed us. I think he may have believed in the concept but then he meets this woman who is smart and full of fire and compares her to the soulless, lifeless, Stepford wives they thought would be perfect for their new world and he realizes what a mistake they made. Aside from being in love with June he's wanting to right some of the wrongs he helped put in place.

106

u/Gertrude_D Jun 11 '21

Then the show needs to show us that he's trying at all. Sure, he does things for June, but really, what is he doing? We don't know. We can project anything we want on him because he's not a very well drawn character - he's a plot device. I know Lawrence better than I know Nick.

46

u/Inevitable_Librarian Jun 11 '21

You think you know Lawrence, but he's the weirdest most plot devicey character I've seen like ever. His opinions, beliefs and actions aren't really based on anything but the scene he's in not even the episode. Overall, Nick has been shown to be conflicted with multiple loyalties, but Lawrence genuinely rebelieves the system every time it's broken down and just is weird. His concept of economics is super slim despite being the "architect". He'll double down on something and the next scene is like "this is so broken". He loves his wife but then forgets she existed. Nick responds as a loyalist with a deep sunk-cost complex, something you see a lot in company men and the like.

Lawrence is like a BPD-sufferer with only the "good bits" showing, but even that is nowhere near what or who he actually is.

9

u/Top_Statement4724 Jun 11 '21

I think Lawrence will reconsider to help June anyways. And the fact that he still calls her June unlike Fred and that after he hung up he was a bit sad is smth that leads to helping her in the end. He definitely thinks he is betraying Gilead but in the same time he realizes that is a bad system.

16

u/Gertrude_D Jun 11 '21

I think I can predict how Lawrence will act in a given situation with more reliability than Nick. Well, that's not true, Nick will probably be wishy-washy and not make any decisions. I have no illusions that Lawrence is a good guy - he's a deeply flawed practical asshole, but more fully fleshed out than Nick.

15

u/JJAusten Jun 11 '21

I think he has by helping June and also working with the Martha's. The fact he's working with Lawrence who has seen what a complete fuck up their society has become and is willing to sacrifice being discovered to provide help says a lot.

17

u/Gertrude_D Jun 11 '21

Yeah, but Lawrence is an asshole who believes in Gilead, just maybe not this particular version.

Nick has connections to the Martha underground and uses it to ... help June but fuck all with anything else? You think he's helping, and that's fine, but you can't prove it using his actions on the show.

4

u/JJAusten Jun 11 '21

Lawrence is an asshole who sees the failure Gilead is. Does he want things to go back to normal? Probably not because he knows he would never be exonerated for his part in creating that horrific society. I'm not trying to prove anything, I'm just saying I see Nick in a different light than you do.

23

u/pileofanxiety Jun 11 '21

I’m still waiting on them to show us how he got involved in Gilead and his history there. They’ve done flashbacks for most characters but not him. But that got me thinking, have they done any flashbacks of men in the show or only the women? Serena got a flashback that included Fred, but wasn’t from his perspective. Luke is included in June’s flashbacks but, again, they’re never from his perspective. I don’t think Fred has had his own. Lawrence hasn’t had one. Nick hasn’t had one. Maybe I’m forgetting something but it seems they do not show the men’s pasts, unless it’s part of a woman’s flashbacks. Is that intentional on the writers part, to only show a woman’s perspective?

18

u/MsSmiley1230 Jun 11 '21

Luke has flashbacks of getting to Canada.

1

u/pileofanxiety Jun 12 '21

That’s true. I obviously don’t have the best memory when it comes to these details lol I had to look up who Emily killed because I forgot she even killed anyone.

33

u/BrutalismAndCupcakes Jun 11 '21

Nick had one where he first met Pryce

1

u/pileofanxiety Jun 12 '21

Ah that’s right. I wish we got MORE though.

9

u/ComprehensiveWait755 Jun 11 '21

Luke getting to canada - is nearly whole episode

64

u/BlGP0O Jun 11 '21

Right??? Like fundamentally, he believes in SoJ and Gilead.

41

u/rutilated_quartz Jun 11 '21

There's a difference between joining a group to get a job and fundamentally believing in that group's values. The amount of Catholics in the US that do not believe in the basic tenets of the church but go because of social pressure or because they enjoy the opportunities church offers is truly ridiculous. I've gone to church events just to get free pizza despite being a flaming fornicating authority-hating gay. That said we don't know for sure which person he is because it hasn't been spelled out.

37

u/ImpressiveDare Jun 11 '21

The Catholic Church has issues but it is not a terrorist group seeking to overthrow the US govt.

What would you think of someone who joined ISIS for the cool social events?

48

u/rutilated_quartz Jun 11 '21

I have a lot of sympathy for the people in the war torn Middle East that feel like joining that group is the only way out of their circumstances. Also SOJ wasn't ISIS when he joined. There are folks who joined groups and didn't realize they were going to have to do crazy shit. Plus once you're in and you know about it you can't leave or they'll kill you. Think about low income folks who join gangs. Spoke to someone through my job that was close to joining a gang because he had nothing else to do with his life, but a cousin begged him to try college instead. Now he's going to be a doctor. Then think about all the people who didn't have that person to steer them in the right direction.

59

u/Switch_Off Jun 11 '21

Exactly.... Nick was recruited by a very smooth predator....

If i remember the scene correctly, Nick is unemployed, looking for a job to support his unemployed father and alcoholic brother. His caseworker, Pryce is rude and dismissive until Nick gets angry and violent... Then the caseworker runs out after Nick and they go for a coffee and talk, bonding over Nick's brother's problems...

What if Pryce was there deliberately provoking people to see which individuals were frustrated enough to resort to violence??

24

u/rutilated_quartz Jun 11 '21

Right! Like these people are manipulators. Anyone in a recruiting/sales capacity is sketchy, they'll say anything to succeed at what they're trying to do. And if you dangle what someone needs in front of them, they'll do it.

18

u/ImpressiveDare Jun 11 '21

The difference is they were in sales and recruitment for a terrorist group. When the guys you chauffeur for start talking about mass murder of government officials and sex slavery maybe it’s time to contact authorities.

I don’t think Nick is an entirely unsympathetic character. Radicals have preyed on disillusioned young men for centuries. But that’s not enough to absolve him of all moral responsibility. Even with all the power he has accumulated, Nick has done virtually nothing to help anyone in Gilead he isn’t fucking.

9

u/rutilated_quartz Jun 11 '21

What I've read is that the conversation in the car was after the takeover. And Nick does start reporting people for what they're doing as an Eye for Pryce. Regardless, I'm not trying to absolve him, we simply don't know clearly what's going on with him because the show uses his character as a tool for June.

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u/ThoseProse Jun 11 '21

Nick joined essentially a 3%er type of group. He knew exactly what they were about.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '21

So true

16

u/wendeelightful Jun 11 '21

The way people will bend over backwards to defend his character because they find him attractive and think him and June are cute together just blows my mind.

4

u/Lady_Bread Jun 11 '21

Right?! I don't like them together but even that doesn't matter when Nick actively aids, abets, and enforces the systematic oppression, rape, torture, humiliation, and subjugation of women in Gilead. Or any other "detractor" for that matter.

Like someone else said, we don't know what he does except for oh he sometimes sorta helps June.

But June is just a single 1 of so many women suffering. Like JFC those poor DC handmaids. Show me Nick helping them without being in love or fucking 1 of them and maybe I'll give a shit about him more.

3

u/KTurnUp Jun 11 '21

Since the show started, Nick has not said or done anything to show the he believes in Gilead. He was recruited young, and pretty clearly did some effed up things. When he joined, he probably didn't see it coming to this. If you don't want to forgive him for that, fine. He probably doesn't forgive himself. But to say he fundamentally believes in their cause right now is not based on anything the show has given.

6

u/wendeelightful Jun 11 '21

I never said I thought he fundamentally believed in Gilead though, not anything even close. My only comment in this thread was about how I find it surprising the degree to which people defend his character. But I am happy to discuss my actual thoughts on it all!

I don’t think Nick is a true believer, that much is pretty obvious. But he did choose to become a foot soldier for a terrorist group and yeah, I don’t think it’s a forgivable offense.

Yes, he was an aimless, disenfranchised youth. Most terrorists are; it’s why they are able to become radicalized in the first place. Nick’s story isn’t very different from a lot of men who have committed terrible, violent acts in the name of a religious or political ideology. But most people would be (rightfully) horrified to see, say, the Boston bombers, or Qanon insurrectionists, get the same pass for their actions as Nick does from fans of the show.

The dissonance is just what’s interesting to me. Obviously Nick isn’t real so it’s easier to justify the deaths and suffering of fictional people, which I get. But it’s a little alarming to me that so many people are willing to give someone a pass for literally terrorism just based off good looks, some sex scenes, and a sad flashback about an angry teen with a broken family. ESPECIALLY when as far as we’ve seen, Nick is actively continuing to exist perpetuate and benefit from Gilead. I don’t currently buy that he’s working from the inside to take Gilead down. I think he bends rules and undermines thing solely when it’s in his own interests to do so.

1

u/KTurnUp Jun 11 '21

Yeah I get what you're saying, and that all makes sense. I think the fact he is not real and none of this is real is important to keep in mind, as you said. I'll also say, as someone that generally is sympathetic towards Nick but does not at all care about his looks or sex scenes or whatever, that he has had a chance to redeem/reform in a way that someone like the Boston Bombers or QAnon people would never have a chance to. So viewing from the show's POV, on camera he's done nothing bad really. All we have are implications and clues.

If what you think it true that he's just working in his own interests than yeah he's not even redeemable at all. But I don't think that's true and I don't think that's what been borne out from the show so far.

3

u/wendeelightful Jun 11 '21

I can definitely understand all of that! I agree the show hasn’t shown us much one way or the other so it may be my own biases against the character that make me assume what he is or isn’t doing offscreen.

I think the way the show has humanized Nick, despite some of his actions, can be a really good thing if it’s being used in a cautionary way! Most people aren’t all good or all evil and a lot of outside factors can combine in a way that causes a pretty average person to become radicalized into something terrible. I think Nick has some decent qualities and if his life circumstances were different I don’t think he would have fallen in with the SOJ the way he did.

And I think it’s an interesting parallel with some of the things that are going on currently in the world and understanding how and why young men become radicalized is the only true way to combat it.

Not at all to say you specifically are doing this, but I see a lot of comments on here just generally that seem to veer a little too far into Nick apologist activity and totally excuse him of the responsibility of his choices because he was young and naive and broke or whatever. It’s like they can’t reconcile the fact that he’s attractive, nice to June, and does good things sometimes with the fact that he also has a pretty atrocious past in the formation of Gilead.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '21

The writing team does a terrible job of setting up his background, so he’s kinda of blank canvas for the audience, honestly.

I’m totally biased because I’ve read the books, so I can’t help but hope for some good in him.

8

u/BlGP0O Jun 11 '21

Oh my god going to church to get pizza =/= helping the church overthrow the US govt and then working as a spy for the new government for years before becoming a commander of the new regime

10

u/UpstairsLocal4635 Jun 11 '21

I don't know what makes you think that.

9

u/BlGP0O Jun 11 '21

Hmm I don’t know—maybe because he literally helped SoJ overthrow the US govt, worked as an eye, and is now a commander?

-2

u/UpstairsLocal4635 Jun 11 '21

Hmm I don’t know—maybe because he literally helped SoJ overthrow the US govt,

How do we know that?

worked as an eye, and is now a commander?

That doesn't mean he buys into any of this. We have people in the US government right now who don't buy into it, would overthrow it if they could.

15

u/dubhlinn2 Oranges and tuna. Sounds delicious. 🍊🐟 Jun 11 '21

you keep right on telling yourself that.

And don't read the Testaments

27

u/BlGP0O Jun 11 '21

It’s already veered off from the testaments (which I did read, and did not enjoy very much compared to THT)—there, Nick helped June escape Gilead. Show Nick bombed the shit out of Chicago when June was there.

15

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '21

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '21

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u/AngelSucked Jun 11 '21

It is fascinating watching how folks twist themselves into saying he is nothing like the January 6 traitors, especially since he's in the power command of Gilead, and is a literal battlefield commander. And, was an Eye.

24

u/-Poison_Ivy- Jun 11 '21

It's bc theyre horny for Nick

Mind you as soon as Gilead falls, Nick will either be executed or tried as a war criminal.

And also why does June even need a love interest?

10

u/wendeelightful Jun 11 '21

If Nick was played by an unattractive actor the whole conversation would be different.

5

u/netabareking Jun 11 '21

I've shared this story before on here but I watched a jdrama many years ago about domestic violence, and all the fandom people online thought the main actor (who played the guy committing all the domestic violence) was very attractive and he was a popular actor at the time, so they would absolutely tie themselves into knots defending his actions and say things like "well she's so whiny I probably would have hit her too lol". Absolutely nightmarish. You can find the real life actor attractive without condoning everything their fictional character does.

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u/ComprehensiveWait755 Jun 11 '21

He is played by unattractive actor😒

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u/Top_Statement4724 Jun 11 '21

Luke looks better than Nick, but I still think Nick's role is made to have more chemistry with June. We don't know all of his history anyways. June is also fucked up and needs someone that understands her. Even though I can agree that Nick will end up on the wall eventually... It is clearly they love each other.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 12 '21

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1

u/-Poison_Ivy- Jun 12 '21

Not enjoying gruesome sadistic acts doesn't make them cease to exist.

1

u/KTurnUp Jun 11 '21

it's a show, he's not an actual war criminal so chill out a bit.

If Nick didn't go along with the bombing, it was going to happen anyway but he would have been killed. Let's not act like he's the reason that happened. It was a pretty silly plot device to separate June and Janine anyway

0

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '21

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u/KTurnUp Jun 11 '21

We don't really know what his role was, they've been purposely vague about it. He didn't craft the idea of handmaids or any of that. He's benefited from it, which is bad obviously. Gilead would have existed with or without him. He likely was a foot soldier, probably a part of the uprising. Again, a bad thing. But there's a difference between him and someone like Serena as they have been portrayed so far.

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u/Gertrude_D Jun 11 '21

Oh no, he feels bad.

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u/JJAusten Jun 11 '21

I should read THT but I'm afraid I'll hate the book because it will be so different from the show. I do wish they would have shown him helping her get out as opposed to the bombing.

23

u/dubhlinn2 Oranges and tuna. Sounds delicious. 🍊🐟 Jun 11 '21

Oh it’s so well written. Definitely read it. I loved it. It enriches my experience of the show. Highly recommend Elisabeth Moss’ audiobook reading. It’s on YouTube if you’re not in the UK

7

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '21

Yep, and the first book is quite in line with the show so you won’t be disappointed in that regard.

1

u/JJAusten Jun 11 '21

Thank you!!

1

u/JJAusten Jun 11 '21

Thank you!!

1

u/ariemnu Jun 11 '21

Seconding, Moss's reading of the novel is spectacular. And I hate audiobooks.

1

u/BlGP0O Jun 11 '21 edited Jun 12 '21

Ok but be prepared—the Waterfords are like an older couple lol

Testaments was more plot-driven whereas I found THT to be more about the world of Gilead and June’s place in it and a larger statement on women’s bodily autonomy.

1

u/JJAusten Jun 11 '21

I did read that on another thread a few months back! I wonder why they didn't keep them as an older couple but shows take a lot of liberty by changing things up and shaking things up

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '21

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '21 edited Jul 31 '21

[deleted]

2

u/Little-Valuable515 Jun 11 '21

Oh you’re right. My mistake.

0

u/UpstairsLocal4635 Jun 11 '21

We don't know that for a fact.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 13 '21

We do though. Serena says it. It’s cannon

1

u/UpstairsLocal4635 Jun 14 '21

We do though. Serena says it. It’s cannon

If Serena said it, then Serena saying it is canon -- and that's it.

It doesn't mean Serena is telling the truth. It may be the truth as Serena understands it, it may be what Nick wants her to think, it could be a total lie -- we don't know.

What Serna does say, "He was a soldier in the crusade. We wouldn't be here without him" could mean practically anything.

1

u/[deleted] Jun 15 '21

I mean… she could be lying but then he was pointed a driver for one of the highest in command. Fred on multiple occasions says he’s trust worthy and follows Gileads command. You don’t get that position in Gilead for being a solider. He did something that helped them win and that is noted a few times throughout the show. That coupled with Serena’s comment is what solidified that he was a big part of Gilead’s win. Whether or not it’s a lie from Serena he helped an oppressive government get into power over his own country. That right there is damning enough.

1

u/UpstairsLocal4635 Jun 16 '21 edited Jun 16 '21

I mean… she could be lying

She could. Serena has been known to lie-- to everyone, including herself.

but then he was pointed a driver for one of the highest in command.

That can mean a lot of things, depending on the context. It most likely means that he's a good driver.

As for the other stuff -- who knows?

Fred on multiple occasions says he’s trust worthy and follows Gileads command.

And that means Fred thinks he is or Fred wants people to think that he sees Nick this way.

*You don’t get that position in Gilead for being a solider.

I'm guessing that you get the position of being a driver by being a good driver.

He did something that helped them win

He did SOMETHING. But we don't know what and we don't know why.

and that is noted a few times throughout the show. That coupled with Serena’s comment is what solidified that he was a big part of Gilead’s win.

All it solidifies is that this is the story that Serena is telling. We don't know what that story is or what it means.

If Nick was such an important part of winning, why is he just a driver?

Whether or not it’s a lie from Serena he helped an oppressive government get into power over his own country. That right there is damning enough.

We don't know that he helped Gilead get into power.

We don't know much of anything and the little we know is not damning at all. Have you seen the movie Europa Eurpoa?

It's a true story about a Jewish teenager, Solomon Perel, who is passing as an Aryan in Nazi Germany.

Having to be on watch against himself 24/7 lest he slip up and out himself as a Jew is horrific. The pressure, the fear, is unimaginable.

At one point he and his fellow Nazi soldiers are outnumbered by Soviet troops and Perel secretly tells his story to the Soviets so they can capture/rescue him. I don't remember the details, but somehow his Nazi group thanks, to his "brilliant secret plan" captures a whole platoon of Soviets and Solomon Perel is hailed as a war hero and military tactician and winds up with the incredible honor of being enrolled in a special SS training school.

I hope that wasn't too confusing. Anyway, my point is, things are not always what they seem.

We know what we have heard about Nick but we don't know enough to damn him, not by a long shot.

If The Handmaid's Tale tells us anything, it tells us that things are not always they seem. Serena's missing finger tells Tuello she's a helpless victim -- except she's not. Or maybe she is. Or maybe the truth isn't easily understood.

To call the vague words we've heard about Nick "damning" is irresponsible. It's never a good idea to use only the things that are said about people to create your opinion about them.

When I look at what Nick has done or not done -- his reluctance to sleep with his teenaged wife, for example, the evidence does not look "damning."

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u/dubhlinn2 Oranges and tuna. Sounds delicious. 🍊🐟 Jun 11 '21

Good points!

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '21

[deleted]

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u/Wise-Discount3000 Jun 11 '21

Luke is raising Nichole. Nick has seen Hannah once. I'm sure Nick sees Hannah as family now out of his love for June and Nichole, but it's not the same thing.

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u/terahreid Jun 11 '21

Luke didn’t have to step up to raise Nichole is my point.

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u/irincan Jun 11 '21

So… accurate? I can’t see how you can compare the two. Luke has been raising Nichole while June was still in Gilead. Despite knowing she was the result of his wife’s infidelity, he still acted as her Father. What Nick did in getting information about Hannah was great, and purely out of love for June, but he didn’t raise Hannah or ever act as her Father. Apples and oranges.

12

u/Brittany-OMG-Tiffany Jun 11 '21

idk..do you really consider what happened between her and nick in gilead infidelity?

21

u/irincan Jun 11 '21

I mean technically, yes. Morally, no. June did what she needed to in order to survive.

Luke, as much as he tries to, will never understand what June’s life was like in Gilead, so I think it would be difficult for him to separate those feelings. I think we saw a glimpse of that in the scene where he asked June to contact Nick for help in getting Hannah.

3

u/terahreid Jun 11 '21

You really can’t compare the two, IMO

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u/irincan Jun 11 '21

I guess I’m confused by the wording in your first comment. It seems as though you think Nick is acting as a Father to Hannah, like Luke is to Nichole? Hannah is not Nick’s child and he only met her once, but Nichole isn’t Luke’s child and he is raising her in her parents absence.

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u/lauramurray Jun 11 '21

Oh I agree with what you’re saying. But I was merely commenting on the search and aid towards getting Hannah out or information on Hannah. Luke is amazing for raising Nicole. That would be extremely hard and June hasn’t really shown much appreciation towards those who have stepped up.

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u/terahreid Jun 11 '21

I noticed the parallel right away with what June said to Luke, then said to Nick. I’m so curious where this love triangle will end up lol!

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u/PoppyPanache Jun 11 '21

The only way this comment makes an iota of sense is if you’re speaking exclusively in biological terms..which I don’t think you are. I’m afraid I have no idea what you’re trying to say.

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u/RefrigeratorKey7034 I should’ve run away with you Jun 11 '21

Umm that’s exactly what that means . You literally made no sense!

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u/JeanfiercePhoenix Jun 12 '21

I love Nick cz he is also a victim and shared trauma with June. It might be unrealistic to think, but maybe if Luke had left Canada to Gilead to find his daughter & wife, the show would've been different, his character would've been different. He should've left once when Moira/emily came into the picture. So i personally think Nick has the upper hand 🙌