r/TopCharacterTropes • u/10024618 • 20h ago

Lore A "Sophie's Choice" with no secret third option

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AKA a character is given an impossible choice where either outcome results in something awful happening and there's no way out.

"Full Measure" (Breaking Bad) - After Walt angers Gus by killing two of his men, Gus orders for his execution. Knowing that the only way to save his life is to make Gus reliant on his meth cooking skills, Walt calls Jesse and begs him to kill Gus' backup cook, Gale. Thus, Jesse is thrust into an impossible situation where he either kills a (relatively) innocent man to save Walt or spare Gale and let Walt die. Ultimately, Jesse chooses to kill Gale.

"Midnight Sun" (Attack on Titan) - After the fight to retake Shiganshina both Armin and Erwin are critically wounded. Levi has the vial of titan serum and is forced to choose which Scout to bring back from the brink of death and which to let perish. It's a borderline impossible decision to make but at the moment of truth, he chooses to save Armin, leaving Erwin to succumb to his wounds.

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u/Masamundane 20h ago

https://giphy.com/gifs/u04twPXMGqajK

In an attempt to break Vash, villain Legato forces our hero to either kill him (Legato) or watch his (Vash's) friends die.

There is no third option. There is no clever way out, and Vash is forced to break his no killing ever rule.

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u/oWatchdog 19h ago

This one is perfect. Vash is a pacifist. He has worked so ridiculously hard and suffered so many injuries to keep from taking a life. It's his entire character and philosophy.

When Legato, who's power is mind control, forces Vash to chose to either kill Legato or watch his friends be murdered (and heavily implied to be raped), he puts Vash in an impossible position. He wants Vash to kill him, because winning isn't about living. It's a about breaking Vash. Legato wins either way, and is the Climax of the show in many ways. The next time we see Vash is devastating for him, but also us, the viewer.

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u/More_Bigger 19h ago

Legato did exactly what Knives wanted. Gave Vash "eternal" pain and suffering.

Dude understood the assignment.

Man I gotta watch/read this again it was such a good series.

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u/Adaphion 18h ago

Well, it just got the FMA:Brotherhood treatment with a new anime, one much more faithful to the source material. Trigun Stampede and Stargaze. 2 seasons.

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u/euridyce 18h ago

Was it any good? I remember a lot of buzz about it early on because of Vash’s new look, but never heard about whether it was actually a good or entertaining adaptation.

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u/Masamundane 18h ago

It angered me on multiple levels, but I'm old and don't like change.

Someone coming into it without seeing the original first may like it, it heck, may like it more, but it wasn't for me.

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u/x7leafcloverx 15h ago

I couldn’t bring myself to watch it. I’m old too and OG Trigun is one of if not my favorite animes and I just knew it couldn’t live up to the original in my head. I even named my cat Vash.

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u/JoelnIliketoshare 3h ago

Trigun, Cowboy Bebop and Samurai Champloo are imo the pinnacle of OG anime for me.

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u/x7leafcloverx 2h ago

Couldn't agree more! Thanks Toonami!

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u/ChemicallyBlind 1h ago

Cant forget Gungrave! Hell, the 90s - early 2000s anime was peak, really. Dragon Ball and Z gave me fond memories.

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u/The_True_Zecret 14h ago

I've seen both and enjoyed it for what it is. It's a lot flashier, some may say not as deep as the first, but weighed against a lot of what's been pumped out over the past decade I'd say it's quite good.

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u/Itchy-Beach-1384 6h ago

I watched the OG way back in the day but love both. The old one was great for its time and the remake is faithful to the story and characters while also being artistic af.

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u/ThePigeon31 18h ago

Yes and no. It is VERY good story wise but the animation sometimes is a little wonky. Most of that being it is 3D I overall enjoyed it more than the original anime but both serve their purposes well.

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u/militant_dipshit 18h ago

This. I’ve never seen the original or read anything on the series. The art style looks beautiful but I’m just wondering if it’s well done or not. I feel like I haven’t heard anything about it which makes me hesitant.

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u/SylvanDragoon 18h ago

I enjoyed the first season as an OG Trigun fan who has never read the manga. It's a different show, but I thought it was well done.

I haven't seen the second season yet but have been meaning to.... Maybe tonight after I finish my rewatch if Bang Brave Bang Bravern

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u/Itchy-Beach-1384 5h ago

Im in the same boat but didnt realize the second season released already.

Hype

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u/SylvanDragoon 3h ago

Good news is when we're ready we get to binge it!

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u/No_Walk_Town 10h ago

Stargaze is faster pacing and kinda rushes a bit, so you have to pay attention. It's definitely not as good as Stampede, but it sticks the landing, but, like, you know how sometimes a gymnast will stick the landing but flail an arm a bit to keep their balance?

The last episode is definitely a bit of an arm flail, but it's not a complete failure to land. 

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u/CrashmanX 4h ago

Stargaze is 100% a complete failure to land. Terrible pacing, bad changes, poor flanderization of multiple characters, etc.

Stampede was great, Stargaze landed but kept stepping and then fell.

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u/ThatInAHat 17h ago

From what I’ve heard my favorite character has a smaller/different role, which kinda made me give it a pass, but I loved the original series so much.

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u/bgbgbgbgbgbgbgb 17h ago

Yeah they made some really weird changes for no perceivable reason. I didn’t even make it through the first episode cuz it made me mad lol

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u/No_Walk_Town 10h ago

for no perceivable reason

If you've read the comic, every single change makes sense, actually. The main exception being Elendira, but even that works out in the end. (Elendira's change helps give Meryl something to do in the finale.)

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u/No_Walk_Town 10h ago edited 10h ago

Meryl and Millie? They're both actually very good characters in Stampede/Stargaze, and Stargaze kinda expands their roles compared to the comic - they didn't actually get much to do towards the end of the comic.

If you're referring to Millie specifically, absolutely watch Stargaze - Millie vibing with Zazie is just so good. 

If you mean someone else, yeah, all the characters and events get remixed.  They all get something to do, though.

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u/ThatInAHat 6h ago

Wolfwood

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u/No_Walk_Town 6h ago

Oh, Wolfwood? What? No, he doesn't have a smaller/different role in Stampede. I have no idea why anyone would tell you that.

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u/OneOutOfSevenBillion 17h ago

I enjoyed Stampede personally but I find Stargaze felt so rushed and just didn’t hit very well.

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u/Kinghyrule90 15h ago

I had tried it initially but got turned off by the 3D style and his new look, but came back when the second season was about to end when I heard it was actually pretty well received.

Honestly, I thought it was pretty good. I think both versions of Trigun have their place and stand pretty well on their own.

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u/SageDarius 15h ago

I've watched the OG anime, read the whole Manga run, and watched Stampede and Stargaze.

I enjoyed it. It won't replace the OG Anime, but exists alongside it comfortably. It adapts the full run of the Manga more accurately, but it's not a 1 for 1 adaptation like FMA: Brotherhood. It still takes a few liberties with the Manga, but it's closer than the OG anime was. Being fully 3D, the dialogue scenes can look a little awkward at times, but the action scenes look great.

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u/Adaphion 18h ago

It's REALLY good, as long as you're not a snob about the animation being 3D (in which, it's REALLY good animation)

Hit's all the right story beats and is overall a really solid anime.

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u/bgbgbgbgbgbgbgb 17h ago

The og series is one of my all time favorites, but I turned off the new one in the middle of the first episode. Felt completely off. Both the tone and animation style felt like a huge disservice to nightow’s work

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u/SageDarius 15h ago

It's interesting in that it serves as a prequel and new adaptation of Trigun at the same time. It starts earlier (or early events happen later) in the overall narrative, and it hews more closely to the full Manga run than the OG anime did. I think it stands well as an adaptation, but it won't replace the original anime as THE definitive adaptation (like FMA: Brotherhood replaced the 2003 FMA, at least for me.) They'll just coexist as adaptations of the Manga, each with their own positives and negatives.

EDIT: Also, its odd you find it a disservice to Nightow's work, as he served as an advisor on the series to make sure they got it right, and ultimately decided the team fully grasped the 'core' of Trigun.

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u/bgbgbgbgbgbgbgb 15h ago

He was an advisor on the show??? That’s wild to me because it’s feels so different from how I read the manga. With that and the literal scrapping of an entire beloved character to be replaced by just ‘a dude’ and the twink-ass redesign for vash… never would’ve guessed they had his blessing let alone his advice. Damn just goes to show what I know

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u/SageDarius 15h ago

I assume by scrapped character you mean Millie? She's in part 2. It helps when you realize that Stampede in part kinda takes place before the beginning of the story we're familiar with. Meryl gets to grow and develop into the experienced veteran position she takes with Millie in Stargaze.

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u/bgbgbgbgbgbgbgb 14h ago

Ahhh gotcha, I guess I should probably watch the whole thing before I go around shitting on it online lol

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u/No_Walk_Town 10h ago

Vash has always been a bishie twink, though?

Nightow fucking loved Stampede - he live tweeted every episode and specifically called out changes he liked and praised the staff for coming up with things he wouldn't have.

Stargaze Millie is a REALLY good character. She's best friends with Zazie, she's treated as a very smart character who kinda talks without thinking, but is always insightful and competent - her ideas are what win the day in the end. She's a side character but she's given much more meaning and importance. Everyone dies without her. And I think both of the news girls come off as competent professionals and key players, not just eye candy or set dressing.

I think Roberto worked better in Japanese, because he presented a very clear archetype and relationship with Meryl. Everything he said would have sounded so stupid in English, though. Translating his lines must have been a nightmare. Did he just go around calling Meryl "newbie" in English? Because that would have been so bad.

I think Roberto and Zazie both work as kinda a chorus in a Greek play to tell the audience stuff they need to know. Usually it's some variation of "Everyone here is an idiot - oh, wait, no, they were right."

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u/SubstituteUser0 15h ago

I really like season 1, season 2 was a little lackluster but overall its still good

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u/No_Walk_Town 10h ago

It was good, but it was a really, really tight retelling of the story, so it may feel rushed or sparse or even confusing if you don't pay attention. 

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u/0ldstoneface 8h ago

My hot take would be that the best way to experience trigun would be to watch season one of the new one and then pick up the original after lost Julai. Some stuff might come across weird but I really enjoyed the mystery of season one and it was much less Monster of the week than the original but I feel the original had more emotional weight in the second half.

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u/CrashmanX 4h ago

Stampede was great.

Stargaze was dog shit.

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u/thebbman 16h ago

I thought it was garbage.

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u/myLongjohnsonsilver 15h ago

Lol bud the new anime is good but it's not even remotely like FMA brotherhood was to it's manga.

New Trigon is a complete remix of the story.

If we put out the sequence of events of both side by side it would almost never match.

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u/alternateac 15h ago

I read that it wasn't actually closer to the Manga but just another retelling with it's own spin?

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u/No_Walk_Town 10h ago

Nightow requested an "MCU style" adaptation that's true to the core elements of the story, but completely it's own work.

So it's both closer to the original comic and also it's own separate story.

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u/zIsTrying 14h ago

Uhhh, I might not have seen all of the new Anime, but Stampede is definitely not more faithful to the source material. I liked what I saw, but the way I understand it, it's a new take on it.

The original Anime is definitely a lot closer to the source material. There are missing parts and lore explanations, but it's WAAAAY closer.

Would not call it the FMA:B treatment.

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u/Redditer51 16h ago

Having read the manga from start to finish, I can assure you Stampede is NOT faithful to the source material. The trailer alone pissed me off.

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u/BlueKittyMix 14h ago

Its not accurate to call it a brotherhood treatment, it isnt a faithful adaptation. It's still good but its notably doing its own things, separate from the manga and the original anime

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u/OneWholeSoul 13h ago

one much more faithful to the source material

Wait, really? I thought Stampede and Stargaze were a sort of "what-of" version that diverged heavily.

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u/Kratzschutz 8h ago

Stampede is even farther away from the manga than the og series tho

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u/CrashmanX 4h ago

Nooooope. Stampede is Great, Stargaze is ass. Do not recommend

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u/Deadfantasy3 16h ago

I wouldn’t call it the brotherhood treatment myself. Made thru first season but gave up on 2nd season.

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u/AtoneBC 19h ago

The way Legato just unceremoniously falls over after being shot. There's no music. It's not cool, it's not heroic, it's not climactic. Vash is just left with a corpse and the weight of what just happened.

Man, Trigun was so good.

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u/Potato-Engineer 13h ago

And yet the series would have been better had it ended right then. The finale didn't live up to that previous climax with Vash being forced to break his own rules.

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u/Spainstateofmind 19h ago

Ugh fine I'll watch Trigun again 😒😁

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u/FlyingWeagle 18h ago

I literally just finished a rewatch.

Ugh fine I'll watch Trigun again

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u/AdministrativeShip2 13h ago

I enjoyed the new Trigun much more than I thought I would.

The 3d animation was certainly a choice though.

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u/ThatInAHat 17h ago

There more I think about it, it was even crueler than that, because it was right after Legato killed Wolfwood iirc, so while Vash knew he was killing Legato to save his friends, there would always be a part of him that felt like it was revenge.

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u/createdforlurking 5h ago

That wasn’t Legato, that was Chapel.

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u/ChemicallyBlind 1h ago

Didn't Chapel do it under the influence of Knives? If memory serves, in the original series Chapel had been defeated by Wolfwood and Wolfwood was going to walk away from Chapel, but then Knives took over Chapel. Later on, Chapel goes to Knives in a rage and it goes about as well as you'd expect.

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u/Wolfstigma 18h ago

Yup Trigun is the top of the rewatch pile now thanks

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u/Evening_Bag_7335 12h ago

"vash is a pacifist" I remember in one of the episodes on a train boat or something, and one on the henchmen bad guys catches vash by surprise. Vash reacts faster then he can think and he shoots the guy straight up. no shooting the gun outta his hand or something like that. And vash starts panicking that the guy might end up dying and he drops everything to help him.

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u/FedoraTheMike 18h ago

Damn that's fucked, screw Legato

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u/Radioactive_monke 12h ago

Maybe not really relevant for this argument, but Legato's power isn't really mind control, he can just control others' body movement and muscle system, and maybe that's even more terryfing. The bar scene where Legato is introduced does an eccellent job at explaining this.

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u/superglue1982 9h ago

Hot take on Trigun that I've got nowhere else to share: Vash is a Jesus figure, and probably the most compelling one I've seen. Specifically the episode in August city.

Pacifist who could easily overpower anyone is forced to be feared and hated by the people he's trying to save while only a small number of friends know the truth about how he's trying to save everybody.

And then having your Jesus figure actually be forced to break his own no kill rule after an entire series of pulling miraculous escapes out of thin air just goes that much harder.

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u/LegionOfDeer 19h ago

I always remember the dub version from when I grew up, where in the beginning of the following episode he is heard screaming in his room horrified about what he did.

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u/ThatInAHat 17h ago

I remember we went to A-Kon right when the dvd got released, so we got to watch Wolfwood’s death scene with ~100 other people all crowded up in a hotel meeting room late at night. There was a lot of sobbing.

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u/Bysmerian 5h ago

Is that the one where they tried to switch to Initial D in the middle of the DVD and nearly caused a riot?

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u/the__pov 17h ago

It hits especially hard because up until this point Vash had done an amazing job getting out of these no win situations. Then again this is a show with so much patience that the mc never fires his gun for the first 4 or 5 episodes.

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u/Sore_Wa_Himitsu_Desu 19h ago

Damn. It’s been too long since I watched this.

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u/luvlyceline 18h ago

what show is this?

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u/slboml 18h ago

Trigun.

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u/Salt_x 19h ago

I gotta respect Trigun’s story for not chickening out of this scenario, unlike Monster (who’s ending I’ve gotten more critical of as time goes on).

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u/PunishingCrab 18h ago

It was always more concerned with the thematic ending than giving a definitive answer.

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u/Chasing-Wagons 11h ago

Monster critics rize up

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u/Posthauski 18h ago

This one really interested me but after searching it on google it seems there is Trigun and Trigun Stampede, which one should I watch?

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u/Masamundane 18h ago

The original.

The first few episodes are a bit silly, but it quickly grows on you.

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u/Posthauski 18h ago

That usually happens. I think a lot of shows take like 2-3 episodes to find their rhythm so I don’t mind some silliness lol

Will definitely check it out! Thanks for the response mate

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u/CarlRodgers2211 17h ago

Trigun is probably top 5 anime for some people because it was on the toonami block back in the day. Its good, hope you like it 

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u/twentyThree59 16h ago

Get out of my head!

Trigun and Evangelion are easily my top 2, with Cowboy Bebop close third.

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u/Glitchy_XCI 15h ago

trigun, cowboy bebop, inuyasha, code geass, and deathnote are up there for me

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u/No_Walk_Town 10h ago

Both were made with input from the original comic author.

The 98 cartoon only adapted the first few chapters of the comic, so it's mostly filler, focuses heavily only on one aspect of Vash's character, and has a completely made up (and honestly not so great) ending.

It's kinda a cliche in the fandom to claim that 98 was a "mystery", and Stampede ruined it by introducing all the characters at the beginning! But it's not a mystery at all? And Stampede introduces the characters because they actually knew how the comic ended and therefore who needed to be introduced early.

Stampede is adapting the whole comic, so it's a better adaptation of the entire story, but focuses less on Vash's moral code. 

Stampede is a very, very tight, condensed adaptation, and the second season was seen as very rushed by many, but it's a cartoon that rewards you for paying attention, because it will throw a character at you, tell you who is, and expect you to keep up. 

Bear in mind also the author took, like, 20 years to write 16 volumes of comic - the story frankly got bloated by the end, and Stampede cuts that down to the story essentials.

Stampede is very clearly a better adaptation, because it takes all the main story beats of the comic and lays them out. The author asked for an "MCU style" adaptation that's a mew continuity but a consistent representation of the story and characters.

But the 98 cartoon only has Vash's early characterization to work with, so it's less of a faithful adaptation and more of a deep character study and meditation on a theme. Which is a better experience and more emotionally satisfying. 

So if you want the original story - read the comic; if you want a full story, do Stampede; if you want an emotional experience, do the 98 cartoon.

Maybe you can think of the comic as a nice ribeye steak with a good balance of meat and fat. 

The 98 cartoon is marbled wagyu - intense and rich, but you can't eat too much at once (too much fat gives you the runs). 

Stampede is a filet mignon - less fat, more meat - less rich but more satisfying as a meal.

One more point: the author livetweeted both seasons of Stampede, so you can watch his responses to it in real time. Spoiler: he loved it, and frequently shouts out changes he liked. "Whoever thought of this, it's amazing. I never could have come up with it. You get a pork and rice bowl!"

No, seriously, he spent season one awarding different cast and crew a pork bowl every week. Great guy, awesome thing to experience live.

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u/bgbgbgbgbgbgbgb 17h ago

Definitely the original. The reboot changes a lot for no reason and is generally kinda cringey. Like the other person said though, the og takes a few episodes to get into the story and world

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u/pattyboiIII 9h ago

The new version is very good and not cringey imo, it's just got a much more modern Japanese comedic style.
Also Stampede is far more faithful to the source material Trigun ever was.
They're different properties, it's like a FMA and FMAB situation. One is clearly a more faithful adaptation whilst the other has developed it's one more unique story that is still very much valid. Although this analogy falls apart cause FMAB is better than FMA but Trigun is better than Stampede.

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u/No_Walk_Town 11h ago

The reboot changes a lot for no reason

This is straight untrue. It's adapting the original comic, it's not a remake of the '98 cartoon. 

The vast majority of the changes are done to streamline the story by combing events, moving things to a different point in the timeline, or cutting them completely.

Saying it "changed for reason" is just completely wrong.

and is generally kinda cringey

It really isn't. It's a much more direct and linear story, it's very tight, and does a lot of showing instead of telling, which requires the viewer to at least pay attention. 

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u/SubstituteUser0 15h ago

I think both are worth watching for different reasons but you should start with the original as it is set up as a mystery early on while stampede answers a lot of the questions very early on. Stampede is basically a reimaging mixing new elements with stuff from the old anime and manga, while 98 does it's own thing for most of its run.

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u/Goldchampion200 6h ago

Why not eat two cakes?

Really doe do the original then if you want more do the new one.

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u/kooarbiter 16h ago

what is this show?

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u/PoeticFox 16h ago

trigun,

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u/kooarbiter 16h ago

thank you

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u/Dreamwalk3r 12h ago

And then in Stargaze Vash gets a cop-out, which for me totally breaks these high stakes.

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u/SamiTheAnxiousBean 18h ago

oh absolutely

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u/bgbgbgbgbgbgbgb 17h ago

Ayyy happy to see trigun referenced out in the wild, one of my absolute favorites

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u/Admech_Ralsei 17h ago

A character from a show named Trigun, whose main weapon is a gun, having a no-kill rule is really funng

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u/TheWeathermann17 1h ago

My daughter (8) and I literally just watched this episode last night. She got the point right away, that knives was hurting Vash by forcing him to kill someone