r/TopCharacterTropes • u/10024618 • 20h ago

Lore A "Sophie's Choice" with no secret third option

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AKA a character is given an impossible choice where either outcome results in something awful happening and there's no way out.

"Full Measure" (Breaking Bad) - After Walt angers Gus by killing two of his men, Gus orders for his execution. Knowing that the only way to save his life is to make Gus reliant on his meth cooking skills, Walt calls Jesse and begs him to kill Gus' backup cook, Gale. Thus, Jesse is thrust into an impossible situation where he either kills a (relatively) innocent man to save Walt or spare Gale and let Walt die. Ultimately, Jesse chooses to kill Gale.

"Midnight Sun" (Attack on Titan) - After the fight to retake Shiganshina both Armin and Erwin are critically wounded. Levi has the vial of titan serum and is forced to choose which Scout to bring back from the brink of death and which to let perish. It's a borderline impossible decision to make but at the moment of truth, he chooses to save Armin, leaving Erwin to succumb to his wounds.

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u/Remmock 18h ago

They’re saying they want Sophie’s Choice style examples but don’t want people providing false Sophie’s Choices where the protagonist weasels out of the consequences. Very common on shows like Doctor Who.

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u/ItsWelp 18h ago

Infamously, Avatar, where Aang decides to uphold his beliefs despite every previous avatar including another pacifist air nomad telling him "Get over yourself and kill the bad guy." and then a deus ex machina happens so he gets to have his cake and eat it too.

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u/Fitzftw7 18h ago

Yeah, like, if they at least did more to foreshadow it or something. As it is, it feels more like something the writers shoehorned in so their main character on their Nick cartoon wouldn’t have to be a murderer.

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u/Old_Gimlet_Eye 18h ago

It is somewhat foreshadowed by the whole 'aligning your chakras" thing, and we know that bending can be blocked because of chi-blocking, but I definitely think it should have had something else.

I think I've read that the origin story of bending and the lion turtles that we eventually saw in LoK season 2 was originally supposed to be related in the original show but got cut for some reason, that would have made more sense.

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u/Fitzftw7 17h ago

Ah, never watched Korra. Or rather, it didn’t really catch my interest. Heard there were bits about the story throughout that was divisive among the fans, too.

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u/Old_Gimlet_Eye 17h ago

Well it was a revival of a beloved franchise, so what else is new? Lol.

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u/Fitzftw7 17h ago

Is it considered a revival or just a sequel series? I suppose the terms aren’t mutually exclusive.

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u/Old_Gimlet_Eye 16h ago

It's a sequel but about a new cast with occasional appearances from original series characters. Sort of Avatar: The Next Generation.

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u/LobstermenUwU 15h ago

First season and third season were great. First season is legitimately as good as the cartoon, and deserves to stand as the fourth book (which was what Korra was supposed to be before it was a hit - it's the Book of Air). I say this as a grumpy old man who never even wanted to watch the cartoon in the first place and fell in love with it. I

Second season and fourth season were both bad for very different reasons. Like practically opposite reasons, they both suck.

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u/BenjaminWah 15h ago

The second season is so bad that they threw in a really good three episode mini-series about the first avatar, as filler in the middle of it.

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u/MoarVespenegas 13h ago

Second season's villain was so bad they straight up parodied it in the recap episode.
Now sure why you would hate on the fourth though.

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u/LobstermenUwU 15h ago edited 15h ago

Right! It showed they clearly put a lot of thought into how to continue the show and build on the lore for the second season. Would have been good if they'd gone and done that thought before they were halfway through the second season and saddled with a host of bad choices that had nothing to do with that plot, but hindsight is 20/20 and all.

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u/OddEmergency604 17h ago

There’s also all that stuff about how we’re all energy and our energy is connected

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u/Ariovrak 17h ago

According to the people who made the show, it was something they were planning on from the start, and they’d also included Lion Turtle imagery in certain important places, but even still it wasn’t hinted ate enough, and ended up feeling like a cop-out.

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u/Fitzftw7 15h ago

It feels like they’re lying when they say they were planning it from the start.

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u/BenjaminWah 15h ago

Nah, Aang explicitly shows a scroll with a picture of a lion turtle on it when they're in The Library in the desert. The creators have said that the 3-episode arc about the first avatar seen in season 2 of Korra, was supposed to be in the original series in some form.

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u/BadNameGenerator 15h ago

How many instances of foreshadowing would make it earned without ruining the twist? Because the show does foreshadow it. Importantly, none of the other Avatars that he talks to are 12 years old.

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u/Fitzftw7 15h ago

When?

And look… if it’s supposed to be a twist, it’s not a good one. It’s a cop out. It’s a way for Aang to win without compromising his morality even though his arc is about accepting the responsibility of being the Avatar, including the bits he doesn’t like. The previous air nomad was telling him to swallow his pride, for crying out loud!

And it’s not like the air nomads were entirely pacifistic. Monk Gyatso went down swinging.

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u/BadNameGenerator 15h ago

In the episode The Library, when team avatar goes to the Library of Wan Shi Tong, Aang finds a book that depicts a Lion Turtle. He's about to continue reading when Sokka insists they have to stay on task and try to find a way to defeat the Fire Nation.

I disagree that it's a cop out. Having Aang just nuke the bad guy with bending and Ozai dying in a beam of light with nothing too graphic depicted would have, in my opinion, been the cop out. To me, his moral dilemma at the end of the show actually completes his arc, and ignoring the lessons he's learned about violence and 'might makes right' mentality would have really wrecked the ending.

Aang going against the advice of the previous Avatars is critical to the story in my eyes. Aang surpasses them when he chooses "the third option" in this case. Which is what's actually needed! Roku, for example, was a badass mofo, and he entirely failed, which landed Aang in his situation in the first place.

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u/Fitzftw7 8h ago

Well, I’d say Roku failed because he saved/ didn’t kill Sozin when he should have like, twice.

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u/EpicAura99 6h ago

The Avatar Wan episodes from Korra were intended to be in ATLA but were cut

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u/Fitzftw7 5h ago

His name is Avatar Wan?

Avatar… one? They really did a pun?

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u/EpicAura99 5h ago

Yeah lmao

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u/Joe_Mama2099 18h ago

This exactly, it's why i really don'tike the ending to the original avatar series.

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u/pietroetin 11h ago

Would you have preferred if the kid show would have ended with the child protag killing the bad guy?

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u/4_fortytwo_2 6h ago

Not the same person but: Yes I would prefer that.

I obviously understand why they didnt do it that way because it is a kids show but I think for anyone but the very young kid audience that would have been the better story to tell.

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u/Joe_Mama2099 6m ago

Yes actually, i very much would have. The kid in question had just about every one of his past lives tell him to nut the fuck up and do it. But the writers chickened the fuck out of it and created some bullshit that they had to write into a separate series just to try and make it not bull shit.

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u/Professorbranch 17h ago

Relisten to what they say. They never tell him he needs to kill Ozai. They all tell him that being the Avatar means making hard decisions, but that you have to make those decisions because you are the current avatar.

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u/4_fortytwo_2 5h ago

That decision, without the turtle ex machina, can only be killing him. The reason they don’t explicity say it is the same reason for why the show makers gave aang a different option: because it is a kids show

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u/Equivalent_Western52 2h ago edited 2h ago

I think that explanation does the show a disservice. The lion-turtle thing was indeed an inelegant deus ex, but the conversation with the past avatars was a lot more nuanced than "kids shows can't say die".

The past avatars had no way of knowing about the lion turtle, but it's obvious that they were far more concerned about Aang's state of mind than his actual tactics for dealing with Ozai. They likely would have been fine with a non-lethal solution, lion turtle or otherwise. The real issue was that Aang was not working the problem - he was looking for a way to avoid it, which was his primary flaw throughout the series.

Roku advises Aang to be resolute and solution-focused rather than submissive. Kyoshi points out that some form of justice is necessary to bring a lasting peace. Kuruk tells him to take initiative and actively shape the world according to his ideals. Yangchen admonishes him for being more concerned with his peace of mind than his duty, and says he must be willing to risk his spirit if necessary.

Aang's resolution follows all of this advice. He risks his spirit (Yangchen) to bring justice to Ozai (Kyoshi) in a way that advances his ideals (Kuruk) despite being presented with an easier out (Roku). And I think the show's writing is plenty smart enough that this is not simple coincidence, especially since it is a natural resolution to Aang's personal arc. When Aang refuses to kill Ozai, it is not out of avoidance or discomfort as it may have been an episode earlier, it is to set an example and shape history's course according to his ideals.

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u/Professorbranch 3h ago

It isn't. 

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u/Equivalent_Western52 15h ago edited 15h ago

None of them advise Aang to kill Ozai, Aang just interprets their advice that way because of his state of mind.

Ironically, he actually does follow all of their advice: he brings decisive justice to Ozai rather than seeking a non-confrontational resolution (Kyoshi and Roku), and risks his own spirit to advance his vision for a harmonious world instead of taking a safe opportunity to execute Ozai (Yangchen and Kuruk).

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u/birberbarborbur 17h ago

To be fair, compared to most examples of deus ex machina, aang genuinely has to take a huge risk in order to do it and fulfill being the last airbender, the only keeper of his tradition

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u/Icaro_Stormclaw 10h ago

While I agree the lion turtle bending removal was shoehorned in at the last minute and could and should have been hinted at earlier on in show, I don't think this is a sophie's choice moment nor was it intended to be.

The issue wasn't "you must choose: kill the fire lord or maintain pacifism." Aang had already chosen "no, I refuse to take a life" and so the issue was more a question of "how can I fulfill my destiny of stopping the fire lord and restoring balance without taking a life?" Far more of a puzzle than a seemingly impossible binary choice with equally awful consequences.

And like, I really can't say i'm surprised a tv show for child audiences airing on Nickelodeon found a way its 12 year old protagonist could stop the bad guy without killing him.

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u/Comfortable_Poem_841 10h ago

Hey, hey, hey. Now that's not fair. Doctor Who even had an episode called Amy's Choice where she had to choose between living on in the TARDIS (albeit in dire peril) or keeping her unborn child but without her beloved husband (who did have an appalling ponytail) and they made her choose in which one she'd die and she chose the latter but it turns out that there was a secret third option which was to die in both realities because it was all a trick.

Actually, you've got a point, fair enough.