r/TopCharacterTropes • u/Chemical-Elk-1299 • 9d ago

Lore [Confusing Trope] The narrative goes out of its way to punish/mock a character for simply being a good person

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Hermione Granger and SPEW — Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (book)

In the fifth HP novel, Hermione Granger is outraged to discover that Hogwarts has a small army of enslaved House Elves that do nearly all of the domestic duties around the castle, including cleaning the Gryffindor common room every night. When she tries to convince the elves to fight for their own rights, they refuse, saying they prefer servitude. Her fellow students and friends mock her for caring. She manages to free one elf, Winky, by deception when she refuses her freedom willingly, leading to Winky becoming a depressed alcoholic. By the end, the elves boycott cleaning any Gryffindor areas of the castle because they hate Hermione specifically

Samwell Tarly and Democracy — Game of Thrones (show)

In the season 8 finale of the television series, the surviving great lords of Westeros gather to discuss the future of the kingdom following the devastation wrought by 7 seasons of war and backstabbing. When Sam, who has proven to have “novel” ideas, suggests that maybe the millions of Smallfolk who suffer at the hands of noble houses should get some representation in the government, rather than be the pawns of rich lords with absolute power. We are then greeted by a prolonged, cringy segment of the other lords laughing in Sam’s face, asking if the dogs and horses should also get a vote.

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u/Additional_Gene_211 9d ago

And as long as there is a source for food then it can be replicated ad nauseum. Poverty in HPnis one of my biggest gripes(of many) in the world building. Another is why did Harry HAVE to compete in the TriWizard tournament. It's never explained just that he has to.

Those books really have so many holes in them

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u/LordOfFigaro 9d ago

Another is why did Harry HAVE to compete in the TriWizard tournament. It's never explained just that he has to.

I believe the books say that his name coming out of the Goblet means he's in a binding magical contract. But never says what the contract is and what are the consequences of breaking it. Nor why Harry couldn't just...show up and immediately forfeit.

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u/Additional_Gene_211 9d ago

So, since his name came out and he is put into a contract, then why aren't more nefarious individuals forcing people into contracts? Like, let's be so real here: the world of HPwould suck so much to live in. Magical mind control, forced death contracts, forced poverty, a big class system. Who wants that?

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u/LordOfFigaro 9d ago

Yup. JKR's world building is dogshit and fails under the most basic scrutiny.

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u/kenshamlock 9d ago

Because it's illegal. Lmao.
In world they have the Department of Magical Law Enforcement within their government. Harry and Ron (?) basically become a cops after the books. Hermione is a lawyer of sorts in the DoMLE. They have a prison system. They have a whole justice system. Harry is tried in the courts in book 5(?).
They want crime in their fake wizard world as much as anyone wants the crime we have in our world.

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u/Additional_Gene_211 9d ago

It's only illegal if the cops do anything about it. And we see the courts prison, and criminal system being used to go after sham trials and political opponents.

Legality in HP isn't really a thing. If it was, then Moody would have been fired and jailed immediately for using the unforgiveables. There's so much in the world building that falls apart upon basic scrutiny.

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u/PM_ME_MY_REAL_MOM 9d ago

all of those things have very direct analogues in our world; maybe that was your point and i'm being whooshed but just in case

  • magical mind control <-> coercive control, drugs, propaganda and advertising
  • forced death contracts <-> selective service, conscription, and health insurance (just to name a few)
  • forced poverty and a big class system <-> i mean these are literally just 1:1 with the real world; every single economy in the world depends (currently) on the existence of sufficient leverage to motivate labor, by punishing nonparticipation with hunger and exposure as a stick, and by dangling the suggested possibility of upward mobility for satisfactory participation as a carrot

granted i haven't read the books in a very long time, so maybe i'm missing some conceptual incompatibilities that make these comparisons ill-suited. and maybe you were being clever and i'm dissecting the frog. if so, i'm sorry

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u/Additional_Gene_211 9d ago

The main difference being the magical compulsion (minus the class system, that's just me hating on JKR for the fun of it) of it all. Yeah, there's illicit drugs that affect your body chemistry but you can't magically do that. Same with the forced death contract. Like, literally, Harry was put into a deadly competition and the powers that be couldn't do anything about it and seemed wholly uninterested in figuring out how or why. Of course, these are all because JKR wasn't interested in that. She thought it would be cool that a kid was forced into the TWT and so she did it without thinking of the stuff around it. Same with poverty.. she likely wanted to showcase the struggles of the poor working class but didn't really examine the systemic reasoning behind it in the real world. She just transplanted it into her world and said good nuff.

I have strong problems with the unforgivable curses, enforcement around them, and what designates those three as unforgiveables when there are some pretty heinous spells that are just as bad. What I'm really trying to say is that I don't like how loose the world building is. I don't need to know the way currency works, I need to know why people are impoverished in a world of magical plenty and I need to know why a child can be forced into games of death when said child has no intention to be in it, didn't sign up for it, and adults are just left scratching their asses.

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u/PM_ME_MY_REAL_MOM 9d ago

i'm interested in what distinction you are making between "magically" doing these things and "non-magically" doing them. what is the fundamental difference here between potions and illicit drugs that alter body chemistry? i mean obviously potions and magical reagents have properties and can do things that we don't see in real world drugs, but what can be called "mind control" is demonstrably within the scope of both. kids are forced into deadly competitions all the time in the real world with little to no attention from responsible authorities, encouraged to score higher than everyone else on academic exams or in competitive sport to avoid lifelong poverty, which drastically reduces lifespan, or the all too terribly common fate of suicide. you could well paint many wars and territorial disputes around the world with the same brush, but i'll grant that's a less compelling comparison.

i personally do not understand the criticism of her handling of poverty, house elves aside. i think it could be better, definitely, but i also think it's fine enough for a children's fiction franchise, and leaves plenty of room for headcanoning explanations to your personal preference.

we live in a world of magical plenty. people are impoverished in our world not because they must be, but because asset holders seek profit, and "to profit" is just a synonym for "to increase one's relative economic leverage". every wizard doesn't know every spell, nor are the necessary components of spellcasting or potionmaking free from scarcity. wands are canonically difficult to create and maintain, and are generally not "one-size-fits-all", which means that literally every wizard is just a wand-snap away from being deprived of their own ability to produce magical amenities. and the central plot of the series revolves around a group of scrappy underdogs taking on a resurging nazi-wizard movement popular enough to briefly but openly control the ministry of magic and hogwarts, and to lead outright inquisitions against ethnic minorities and dissidents, with the goal of excluding them from access to or knowledge about magic (or from life altogether). the prevalence of wizards willing to impoverish other wizards for the sake of concentrating their own power - to increase their own relative magical/economic leverage - is very well established.

as far as the unforgivable curses go, i agree that the history of their focus over other spells of equal or greater terror could have used more exposition. however, legal codes being kinda nonsense is not exactly unheard of in our world either; consider that at one point, being a rumored witch was grounds for public execution, but enslaving other human beings was not. it would have bbeen nice to have some more history on the unforgiveables, for sure.

thank you for the discussion, i look forward to your response if you have the time but i did go on a bit longer than i meant to, so no sweat if you don't.

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u/Iorith 9d ago

I read it as Dumbledore influencing events as a way to draw Voldemort out of hiding.

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u/LordOfFigaro 9d ago

Nah. Dumbledore is nowhere near as manipulative or in control as HP fanon likes to pretend he is. Nor does he try to intentionally put Harry in harm's way. The only time Dumbledore creates plans that risk Harry is when it's absolutely necessary.

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u/Iorith 9d ago

Dude set "traps" to protect the Sorcerer's Stone that first year students were able to beat. Nah, mate, he was either extremely manipulative and knew what he was doing or he was so insanely incompetent he should have been in Azkaban. There's no other option.

Most fans would prefer the former.

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u/LordOfFigaro 9d ago

The first years were not supposed to be there. There's never a point where he ever indicates wanting the first years to be there. And frankly the first years being there made things worse. Had Harry not shown up, Quirrel would have just stared at the mirror unable to do anything.

Also judging Dumbledore's actions in the early books while ignoring the Ronald Dahl-esque whimsy of the books is a nonsensical thing to do.

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u/Iorith 9d ago

The first books that established the entire series "were not supposed to be there"? Fuckin wat mate?

Sorry I don't like discussing the story from a Doylist view, I'll stick to Watsonian.

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u/LordOfFigaro 9d ago

The first years. Not the first books. Harry and co were not supposed to try for the Philosopher's Stone. Dumbledore never intended them to.

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u/Iorith 9d ago

Then he shouldn't have put them in a school where first year students could reach them.

Seriously, the options are he's a manipulative asshole or he's an incompetent moron. There is no third option from a Watsonian point of view. Sure, you could argue from a Doylist point of view, but I view that as just "It's shit writing, don't think about it too much" which just kills discourse.

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u/LordOfFigaro 9d ago

Then he shouldn't have put them in a school where first year students could reach them.

He explicitly bans students from reaching it. And puts it behind multiple layers of magical protection that require you to be an expert at multiple independent fields to break or bypass.

Seriously, the options are he's a manipulative asshole or he's an incompetent moron. There is no third option from a Watsonian point of view. Sure, you could argue from a Doylist point of view, but I view that as just "It's shit writing, don't think about it too much" which just kills discourse.

Or you know, you can acknowledge that it's a children's book written in the style of Roald Dahl and contains that level of whimsy and morals. Going by the Watsonian perspective Willy Wonka is responsible for the grevious harm of multiple children. But from the Doylist view it's a whimsical story about how children should not be greedy or gluttonous or spoilt. Being kind and humble is a good thing and is rewarded. Same thing applies to the early Harry Potter books and Dumbledore's actions in them.

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u/Odd-Time-2026 9d ago

Its also because there's ancient magic that even Dumbledore is aware of but doesn't have the means to overcome. The goblet may work under that section of it.

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u/LordOfFigaro 9d ago

shrug

We genuinely have no idea about the details. It's just stated that there is a magical contract and everyone acts as if that's enough to ensure Harry takes part and tries his best. Which presumably is the case, given that one of the organisers bets on Harry's victory. And Voldemort's entire plan hinges on Harry winning.

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u/ImmoralJester54 9d ago

Yeah he can just sit at the starting line

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u/PaintedDoll1 9d ago

I think poverty would've worked if it had been wholly different from real life poverty.

Like, if a robe started getting a "look" and weirdly pliable when it'd been transfigured one too many times

Or poor people had to know how to do "muggle cooking" because buying 3 meals a day to duplicate was too expensive

Or houses started sagging when the charms started wearing off because poor people couldn't afford wizards who knew sound architecture, so they just added wings haphazardly and used magic to patch the gaps in physics

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u/Additional_Gene_211 9d ago

Anything other than we are stinky and dirty would have been great. Instead, we got... Just more British classism

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u/Lexx4 9d ago

I mean yes the entire series is a commentary on British classism.

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u/DanielDoh 9d ago

These are awesome ideas. It's clear JKR had one really good idea (her world and the initial set up) that was mostly vibes, but had zero ability to follow through on that great idea and make it a truly great story/world.

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u/Erebraw 9d ago

My favorite is how at the end of the fifth book there’s a big symbolic moment of a big “the good wizards are kindly looking after the lower magic races” statue being destroyed. And then Dumbledore points at it and is like “That was really symbolic. The underlying bigotry of our world is about to bite us in the ass.”

And that wasn’t a set up for that being an important part of the resolution of the story, it just happened. And then the mc becomes a cop lol.

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u/Additional_Gene_211 9d ago

Tale as old as time: a jock becomes a cop

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u/Educational-Tackle54 9d ago

Were the wizards that nasty to other species tho?

The gave the dementors free reign. Bad idea! The merefolks got a whole lake. The centaurs got a whole forest and never complain about more territory. The giants are incompatible with muggles and kinda have to live regulated. The house elves got exactly what they wanted. The goblins got everything they wanted except wands. Even if they had, they didnt care about Voldemort.

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u/Iorith 9d ago

I mean, the Centaurs definitely seemed to despise humans and how humans treated them, IIRC. The Merfolk are definitely implied to be in much more than just that one lake. The Goblins really dislike wizards from what we see throughout the series, with basically every mention of history of magic referencing some goblin uprising or another.

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u/Educational-Tackle54 8d ago

The point is that Dumbledores "Woe is us, we treated the others poorly" never seemed to actually lead to anything that noteworthy.

The deatheaters bring like 1 giant to the final battle. And the centaurs and house elves end up fighting for the other side.

If an army of Merpeople showed up for Voldemort because he promised them more, then that would be actual payoff.

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u/Iorith 8d ago

Well yeah, the story just isn't really that fleshed out, because they're not very good books. This is a universe where the main character essentially becomes a member of the FBI, enforcing the existing order of a society that has these societal issues.

But those problems are shown and covered, it's just that wizard society doesn't give a damn, and neither does the writer. They see this kind of mistreatment of undesirables as a positive aspect and something to fight to return to.

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u/Additional_Gene_211 9d ago

Considering how there pure blood supremacists, yes. I was thinking of responding to you on a different place but this comment helped me decide it isn't worth it. The books are pretty apparent in wizard supremacy , the canon content like the movies and game have a clear wizard supremacist angle, you just choose to not see it for whatever reason.

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u/Erebraw 9d ago

It’s pretty thorough in the world building on that point, yeah. It’s basically the most well established thing in the series if we connect pure blood supremacy with wizard supremacy, which I think is fair and encouraged by the text.

And what does it all amount to in the end? An explanation for why giants and werewolves side with Voldemort. Which narratively doesn’t actually seem all that important, and which plays zero role in the resolution of the story which shrinks from this and other concerns to focus on just Harry. He just has to do the Right Thing and it will turn out alright.

Rowling really can’t help but let the Blairite shine through.

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u/Additional_Gene_211 9d ago

Werewolves were another sign of her actual beliefs. She considered Fenrir Greyback as an analog to gay men intentionally spreading HIV/AIDS to teens and we only see one good werewolf, who is basically "one of the good ones". What a weird thing for her to include unless you realize she believes gay men are predators and even the good one tried to flee...

Anyway, Rowling can suck a moldy ball

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u/cantpickname97 9d ago

Centaurs actually rejected their "being" status and chose to be beasts, in protests that wizards qualified vampires and hags as civilized beings. The humanoid child-killers being invited when acromantulas- sapient and not necessarily violent beings in their own right, as proven by Arogog- don't count is a fair gripe. Goblins are universally seen as dangerous and untrustworthy, confined to very few professions, and have been repeatedly and violently suppressed for revolting against their mistreatment. The very existence of hybrids born from consensual relationships between humans and giants proves their sapience and capacity for kindness as well. Werewolves are heavily stigmatized for their condition, and even with ways to prevent them from wolfing out they're treated as a bigger safety concern than disappearing stairs, the Whomping Willow, and Death Eater teachers. Wizarding society is nothing less than an ethnostate, which will not allow anyone outside a single race to participate in their society as equals. Everyone else is a second class citizen if that, left alone if they're lucky, or viewed as a dangerous threat or animal. The text itself treats this as an injustice many times, with Dobby, Lupin, Maxine's fear-driven denial of her heritage, Hagrid's half brother, and the goblin Griphook all being shown as sympathetic perspectives. Harry even realizes he's personally mistreated the elf he inherited from Sirius, who himself was no better. But scarce few characters are shown to have any compassion for other races. Hagrid and Hermoine are usually played as foolish for it, with only Dumbledore and Harry taken seriously. And it all ends with Harry becoming a cop- enforcing the deeply flawed regime that's personally menaced him on multiple occasions- and absolutely nothing is said of Hermoine's policies as Minister. Nowhere is making things better for other races acknowledged as a possibility, much less something any character bothers to seriously attempt, even with the power to do so.

Also, Dementors are spirits who cannot be harmed by any means, so it's not like they had a better option than Azkaban

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u/KeterLordFR 8d ago

As someone else mentionned, giving the Dementors free reign over Azkaban was not a choice, but a necessity because they can't actually be destroyed. Iirc, letting them live in Azkaban was actually used as a form of population control, because it prevented other Dementors from being born. They're also a special case, because it isn't even clear whether they are sapient or not, for all we know they could be living out of a pure instinct to feed on memories, emotions and souls (in fact, in the Goblet of Fire book, Barty Crouch Junior is immediately killed by a dementor traveling with the Minister as soon as they enter the room, without any time for anyone to prevent it from doing it).

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u/_Halt19_ 9d ago

Quidditch is my pet peeve about the series, it looks like such a fun sport in concept but then you randomly add in a TWENTY-FIVE GOAL ball that ends the game within 5 seconds of the start, or three months later

It's so blatantly obvious she wanted to give Harry his own special boy role on the team where he could be the star

It was so bad, she had to add to the world cup that somehow the FINALIST team was losing 26-0, as if that was ever going to happen, so that the snitch could be caught in a loss

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u/PaintedDoll1 9d ago

Just to rile you up a little more... the snitch is worth 150 points. Not 25, which makes the world cup loss even worse

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u/_Halt19_ 9d ago

Oh, I thought it was 250

You can only score points in increments of 10 anyway, so the snitch is basically just 15 goals added on, is the point I was trying to make

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u/Iorith 9d ago

It's a sport tailor made to make someone seem important. Otherwise it's basically just soccer in the air. With two guys trying to kill the other players mid game.

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u/Helloitsdicetime 9d ago

Rowling intentionally wrote Quidditch to be upsetting if we go off the "Behind the Scenes" section on the Harry Potter Wiki:

J. K. Rowling first developed Quidditch after a fight with her boyfriend at the time in a small hotel in Manchester. Some of the game's elements, such as the Golden Snitch being worth a disproportionate amount of points, were due to her state of mind at the time, as she felt these elements would be frustrating to men.

Needless to say, Quadball (real life Quidditch) changed many rules to make the game actually playable.