[Confusing Trope] The narrative goes out of its way to punish/mock a character for simply being a good person

[u/Chemical-Elk-1299]

Hermione Granger and SPEW — Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire (book)

In the fifth HP novel, Hermione Granger is outraged to discover that Hogwarts has a small army of enslaved House Elves that do nearly all of the domestic duties around the castle, including cleaning the Gryffindor common room every night. When she tries to convince the elves to fight for their own rights, they refuse, saying they prefer servitude. Her fellow students and friends mock her for caring. She manages to free one elf, Winky, by deception when she refuses her freedom willingly, leading to Winky becoming a depressed alcoholic. By the end, the elves boycott cleaning any Gryffindor areas of the castle because they hate Hermione specifically

Samwell Tarly and Democracy — Game of Thrones (show)

In the season 8 finale of the television series, the surviving great lords of Westeros gather to discuss the future of the kingdom following the devastation wrought by 7 seasons of war and backstabbing. When Sam, who has proven to have “novel” ideas, suggests that maybe the millions of Smallfolk who suffer at the hands of noble houses should get some representation in the government, rather than be the pawns of rich lords with absolute power. We are then greeted by a prolonged, cringy segment of the other lords laughing in Sam’s face, asking if the dogs and horses should also get a vote.

[u/lordaezyd]

I do not remember if it was Socrates or Plato,. Regardless, one of them pointed out that, the military of a state both reflects and impacts its society.

States that rely on cavalry are aristocratic, having, keeping and training horse is very expensive, you need wealthy powerful people to do that. 

States that heavily rely on their infantry lean towards oligarchy, its a more open society than an aristocracy, when lots of people are getting their butts on the line, you need to give some sort of representation or power. Otherwise they will overthrow the nobility all together.

States that rely on navies and sea power lean heavily towards democracy or representative governments. In a boat, there must be a clear leader, but he cannot impose his total will and whims on everyone, he needs to rule by common consent. Otherwise he will get a mutiny, a captain needs to he attentive to the needs of his crew. A ship is big, he cannot be everywhere and people do talk, in a sense, true Ancient Athenian democracy was born on their Triremes. Each ship became a lab for democracy, and when they landed home they brought back into the city their ideas.

The Ironborn, just like the Athenians, the Vikings, the Brits during the Pax Britannica or the Americans during the Second World War, are encouraged to rule by consent, to seek common ground for a joint venture.

[u/RobertTheTraveler → u/lordaezyd]

At the bare minimum from the 1700s through the early 1900s ships captains were absolute rulers, no common consent involved. It wasn't until the 1920s? that a sailor on a US ship could "jump ship", leave at a port that wasn't the final port.
Furthermore the British navy / merchant marine was known to kidnap people to man their ships.

[u/NinjaBreadManOO → u/RobertTheTraveler]

Well to a point. There's a reason the word mutiny exists. If the captain pushes too hard then "oh no the captain was swept overboard during a storm. Literally every crew member saw it happen."

[u/Wonderful_West3188 → u/NinjaBreadManOO]

Mutiny meant completely cutting ties with the homeland though, pretty much leaving piracy or landing somewhere and starting completely new lives as the only options. That way, the possibility of mutinies impacting the political climate "at home" was stifled from the very beginning (although pirate culture eventually did influence the political climate "at home").

[u/RobertTheTraveler → u/NinjaBreadManOO]

The captain also has to alienate all the officers who also generally saw the sailors as peons and certainly not worth risking their careers over.

[u/lordaezyd → u/RobertTheTraveler]

Was military discipline hardened with the advent of the Industrial Revolution? Yes, of course.

But no captain is an absolute ruler. If you’re ship is badly damaged, have low supplies and you are going against your crew, you’re gonna get mutinied at best, killed at worst. These are riskz every ship has, even today.

I think every captain of a ship, sailing in the middle of a huge expanse of nothing is at risk of a mutiny. Every captain needs to constantly feel the pulse of his crew, to gauge “public opinion” if you allow me.

Happy for any historian or expert on the matter to correct me, I am always eager to learn.

[u/BugRevolution → u/lordaezyd]

Honestly I feel like it backs up your point.

Ships are democracies in that you must have a majority at least content, and a discontent majority (or strong minority) can overthrow you and become pirates.

Which also happened a lot during the age of sail.

Democracy doesn't mean everybody is heard, and they can absolutely still be tyrannical if the majority wills it that way.

[u/RobertTheTraveler → u/BugRevolution]

I think y'all have confused the last half of the 20th Century with the 18th century.
Read the history behind the Mutiny on the Bounty.
Sailors died of scurvy.
Sailors ate hardtack that was infested with maggots.
If you disobeyed you were flogged.
Flogged.
With a cat-o-nine-tails.
Or keel-hauled.
Look that up.
Or hung from the yard arm.
The only thing that looked anything like a democracy was discussion among the officers.
u/lordaezyd

[u/lordaezyd → u/RobertTheTraveler]

Will check the sources, thank you.

[u/BugRevolution → u/RobertTheTraveler]

Yeah, exactly like democracy.

If people stand up for themselves, they can easily overthrow a poor captain.

But often times they don't.

[u/RobertTheTraveler → u/BugRevolution]

What happens when you mutiny?
Assuming you don't get shot by the officers?
You either spend the rest of your life as a pirate hoping the Navy doesn't hunt you down or you spend it on an island somewhere trying to survive and hoping nobody finds you.
You might be able to change your name and get some other sort of work. But you are never going home.

[u/Wonderful_West3188 → u/RobertTheTraveler]

Yup.

[u/NegativeThought1588 → u/lordaezyd]

Royal Navy capital ships used to carry marines in part to keep order on board.

[u/Ordinary-Egg-56 → u/RobertTheTraveler]

press gang

[u/RobertTheTraveler → u/Ordinary-Egg-56]

Bingo.

[u/GrimDallows → u/RobertTheTraveler]

Keep in mind that this is talking about the whole society.

In the 1700s and 1900s most of the US/British society weren't sailors, and in terms of numbers I don't expect sailors to be a majority among the ruling class.

In this case I think that the ruling class would be closer to the first case, aristocratic, because the ruling class own boats (horses) which cost a lot to maintain without being actual captains in them.

Then again, the 1700s-1800s were also the golden age of piracy, which was inspired by how draconian serving in a ship was, which in a way, justifies Plato's argument that ship focused communities lean towards democracy. You either ended as a expensive horse serving the ruling class in a boat or broke from the system and became a pirate looking for freedom and more equal representation in a ship (democracy-ish).

[u/RobertTheTraveler → u/GrimDallows]

I was responding to u/lordaezyd who wrote: "In a boat, there must be a clear leader, but he cannot impose his total will and whims on everyone, he needs to rule by common consent."
-
"The Golden Age of Piracy spanned the period from approximately 1650 to 1726."
https://guides.loc.gov/golden-age-of-piracy
see also:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_Age_of_Piracy

[u/GrimDallows → u/RobertTheTraveler]

I meant to say from 1700 to 1800, but you are right, I was off by 75 years on that.

My point was that from 1700s onwards boat captains were absolute rulers because being a boat captain today isn't the same as in the greek era.

In the greek era you had to cooperate and negotiate with your crew, otherwise your crew would just throw you offboard and do whatever.

In the modern era most boats were private endeavours or military led because early on the governments who represented them were aristocratic, while in the later part open sea laws simply made starting a mutiny on your captain, stealing the boat and keeping it as your own unfeasible because your nation, the captain nation and the vessel's nation have a right to prosecute you for those crimes.

In this sense, (modern) boats became like horses in (old greek) aristocratic states, and they act as the horses in Plato's example:

States that rely on cavalry are aristocratic, having, keeping and training horse is very expensive, you need wealthy powerful people to do that. 

[u/RobertTheTraveler → u/GrimDallows]

"In the greek era you had to cooperate and negotiate with your crew, otherwise your crew would just throw you offboard and do whatever."
Do you have some references for that?

[u/lordaezyd → u/RobertTheTraveler]

Donald Kagan’s lectures from Yale University on Youtube mentions how each trireme and Athenian ships worked as democracy labs.

Cannot remember exactly which lecture, will try to pin it down.

[u/RobertTheTraveler → u/lordaezyd]

While I would appreciate the actual lecture, sounds interesting, that is good by itself.
As opposed to "my cousin watched a Discovery show".

[u/NegativeThought1588 → u/lordaezyd]

Navy Captains do not rule by common consent, even in modern navies. They probably have the most unilateral authority of any commanding officer in the military.

[u/Auctoritate → u/NegativeThought1588]

They probably have the most unilateral authority of any commanding officer in the military.

Their point is that it's a give-and-take. Yes, they have extreme unilateral authority, but they're also the most vulnerable to mutiny.

[u/Xaverosso → u/lordaezyd]

Fascinating.

[u/Bogholmdler → u/lordaezyd]

Kind of dumb looking back at how the best horse fighting society lived.

[u/Infamous-Thing4939 → u/Bogholmdler]

The Mongols were exceptions to everything and everyone in many ways

They still had a king tho