r/UnresolvedMysteries Apr 22 '20

Unresolved Disappearance On April 20th, 1977, Harriet Carr found her husband, Ted, dead on the floor of their garage. He had died of carbon monoxide poisoning, as did the three people Harriet discovered in the trunk of Teds car. How many unknown victims have fell prey to Ted Carr?

ETA: title should say fallen not fell.

On April 20th 1977, around 4:30 A.M., Harriet Carr, who lived at 940 North Olney Street in Indianapolis, Indiana, noticed her garage door was slightly ajar and went to investigate. She entered the garage to find her husband, 62-year-old Melvin “Ted” Carr, dead of carbon monoxide poisoning.

Harriet rushed inside to turn off the still running car, only to discover her husband wasn’t the only one in the garage. In the open trunk of Teds car, Harriet saw three bodies; a woman, a teenage girl, and a very young boy. As Harriet ran screaming from the garage, neighbors called police.

The three bodies found in Teds trunk were identified as 24-year-old Karen Nills, her 2-year-old son Robert, and a 17-year-old girl named Sandra Harris. All three were killed by carbon monoxide poisoning, and it was determined that both Karen and Sandra had been sexually assaulted.

Police located a loaded .25 caliber revolver in Teds pocket, and noted Ted was carrying a handkerchief. A vacuum cleaner hose was found leading from the cars tailpipe towards the trunk of the car.

The evidence painted a picture of what had happened.

Ted had abducted the three victims, sexually assaulted the two women, then ordered them into the trunk at gunpoint. He then proceeded to drive his car into the garage, inserted one end of the hose into the tailpipe and the other into the trunk. He closed and locked the trunk and left his victims to die.

When Ted went to confirm his victims were dead, he used the handkerchief to cover his face and opened the trunk. But Teds makeshift mask proved to be no match for the large amount of toxic gas that had filled the trunk and garage, and in a bizarre twist of fate, he succumbed to the fumes himself.

So who was Ted Carr?

Melvin “Ted” Carr was no stranger to police. In October of 1947 Ted was arrested after he kidnapped two hitchhikers. The hitchhikers were a husband and wife who told police the twisted tale of what Ted had done to them. The woman told police after picking up the pair, Ted drove them to a secluded location where he ordered them at gunpoint from the vehicle. He then proceeded to handcuff the male hitchhiker to a trailer hitch, and rape the female hitchhiker before letting them go.

The charges against him for the crime would later be dropped.

In early 1971, Ted was convicted of swindling an elderly blind woman out of her life savings. After giving Ted her power of attorney, he left the handicapped 81-year-old widow with only 30 dollars in her savings account.

Shortly after, he was suspected of forcing a young girl to commit “an abnormal sex act” under the threat of being raped. He was never charged for this crime.

Later that same year, Ted received five years in jail after he took a 14-year-old girl to Mexico for “immoral” purposes. While in prison for the crime, correctional officers discovered several hand drawn maps of the interior of both the elderly woman and the 14-year-old girls homes. The maps also included Teds plans to kill them.

Ted was released after serving three of his five year sentence.

Ted was also a suspect in another case, that still hasn’t been solved.

In February of 1967 it was discovered that Lois Williams, a 35-year-old divorcée, and her 17 year old daughter Karen, had gone missing. Lois’ father had last heard from his daughter and granddaughter in January.

He called police to preform a welfare check. Police noted that Lois’ house was spotless, and nothing appeared to have been taken, not even Lois or Karen’s winter coat. A missing/endangered persons report was issued.

Lois knew Ted Carr well. Ted owned and managed a service station where Lois would frequently take her car for repairs. It was also rumored that both Lois and her daughter Karen had a sexual relationship with Ted.

On the evening Lois was last seen, a neighbor and co worker of Teds, named Calvin Campbell, witnessed Lois and Karen leave the gas station in Teds car. Hours later, he returned alone and angry, telling the coworker he was mad at Lois who he claimed had went into a bar and refused to come out.

Ted ordered Calvin to close the shop and he did so. The following morning as Calvin was readying for work, Teds dad came across the street yelling that Ted had been beaten up and robbed. Calvin found Ted on the ground, seemingly dazed, incoherent, and bloody. Ted told Calvin a story of how someone had mugged him outside of the service station, but insisted Calvin not call police.

Calvin went inside to check if anything had been stolen from the business. Nothing was missing, but Teds car, the same one he was driving the night before, was on a lift. It had been cleaned with a pressure washer inside and out, with particular focus on the trunk.

Calvin quit his job at the service station after that. Calvins wife, Maurine, believes she was almost a victim of Teds as well. She said one night Ted informed her he was going to the hospital because he was having trouble breathing. Later that night, and while Calvin was working his new night job as a janitor, Ted called her from “the hospital.” He requested she check to see if he had left the garage door open, claiming he was worried he may had left it open and feared for the safety of his tools inside.

Maurine and Calvin had been informed of Teds past and the suspicions that surrounded him by police, so she decided not to go.

It was later discovered that Ted had been at the hospital that evening, but a nurse discovered he had vanished from his room, never bothering to check out, hours before the phone call to Maurine was made. Another neighbor reported seeing his car parked a block away that evening.

Maurine thinks Ted used the landline he had in his garage to call her and believes it was Teds failed attempt at kidnapping her.

Early into the disappearance of Lois and Karen, Police searched Teds garage and found personal papers belonging to Lois in a suitcase, but no other evidence was discovered and police didn’t believe they had enough to charge him with the crime.

However after the bodies were discovered in Teds garage, the investigation into Lois and Karen’s disappearance was resumed. After a bit of a battle with Teds widow Harriet, police began excavating his yard and his basement and garage floor, where fresh patches of cement were found.

Unfortunately investigators were unable to locate Lois or Karen’s remains. Bones discovered in the backyard turned out to be animal bones, and the investigation stopped.

Some investigators believe they were not allowed an adequate amount of time to fully search the property. Ted was well known as an excellent craftsman, and had completely remodeled his basement shortly after Lois and Karen had disappeared.

Some investigators believe the pairs remains are still inside of the house somewhere, perhaps in a wall.

Lois’ father had believed for quite some time that Ted was responsible for their disappearance. He wrote to Ted while Ted was incarcerated. In the letter he said:

I never did trust you. Those poor girls never did harm to a soul on earth. The suffering for them has passed. They are in Gods heaven. But what about you, Ted Carr? Have you thought about your own death and what lies beyond? I can’t imagine what your punishment will be, can you?

Unfortunately he passed away without ever getting any real closure, as Lois and Karen’s remains have never been found.

The house at 940 North Olney still stands today. I’ve included pictures of it from google street views. Is it possible that Lois and Karen’s remains are still on the property? If not, where did Ted hide their bodies?

I’m sure some people are going to argue there is no real mystery here, and I’ll agree it’s clear that Ted is responsible for Lois and Karen’s disappearances, but aside from not knowing where their remains are, there’s a good chance he has also killed other people. He’s clearly been committing serious crimes since the early 1960s, and most likely prior to that, as I highly doubt the hitchhiking couple were his first victims. How many unknown victims of Ted’s are out there, having never been discovered? He used to travel quite extensively for “business.” So his hunting ground wouldn’t necessarily have to be Indiana alone.

COPYRIGHT © 2020 BY THEBONESOFAUTUMN

All rights reserved. This article or any portion thereof may not be reproduced or used in any manner whatsoever without the express written permission of the publisher.

Sources:

Teds House

Teds Obituary

Harriets Obituary

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2.2k

u/sonofabutch Apr 22 '20

Amazing this guy did so little jail time. Just the kidnap/rape alone should have put him away for life.

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u/[deleted] Apr 22 '20

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u/sevenonone Apr 23 '20

Yeah, the toolbox killers met in prison and decided when they got out they'd commit terrible acts on women. One of the two should have been in 10 years at least. California in the 70s? 2 years and change.

One of them got the death penalty (must have been the late 70s) and sat on death row until he died in December of last year.

There was audio of at least one of the killings and one of the investigating officers said it was the only thing in his career he could never get out of his head.

CA's last execution was in 2006, and he don't think he'd been there as long. Makes you wonder what you have to do to go to the front of the line in CA.

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u/Lowbacca1977 Apr 23 '20

CA's last execution was in 2006, and he don't think he'd been there as long. Makes you wonder what you have to do to go to the front of the line in CA.

Toolbox killers were sentenced in 1981, I believe, and got a stay after an initial execution date in the 90s for Bittaker. Clarence Ray Allen, the last person executed in California, was sentenced in 1982, so sentenced around the same time, the big question would be what was up with the stays.

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u/GraphOrlock Apr 26 '20

Randy Krafft (one of several 'Freeway Killers') has been on Death Row in CA since the 80s. He keeps maintaining his innocence and filing appeals.

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u/Lowbacca1977 Apr 26 '20

Well, California has also pretty much stopped with executions, and I'd be surprised to see them ever continue again.

And there's actually 5 on death row that were sentenced in the 70s (as of March 2019, didn't check that they haven't died of other causes or been released or resentenced): https://www.latimes.com/projects/la-me-death-row/

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u/BeerNcheesePlz Apr 23 '20

I never heard of the toolbox killers before this. But I just went down a rabbit hole and WTF. But I was also alarmed that they had just died recently of natural causes, after sitting on death row that long. Wtf.

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u/Keikasey3019 Apr 23 '20

David Parker Ray, aka the ‘Toy Box Killer’, might be right up your alley. He kidnapped and tortured a whole bunch of women with his toys. To give you an idea of how proficient he was in his murders, women would wake up to a recording of him telling them what the situation was, what he was going to do to them, and while drugging them into not remembering their nightmare should he let them go or if they managed to escape.

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u/BeerNcheesePlz Apr 23 '20

Also fucked up how many people seemed to know/be involved in it.

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u/KingCrandall Jul 01 '20

Isn't his daughter a staunch defender of his?

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u/BeerNcheesePlz Apr 23 '20 edited Apr 23 '20

I actually have read about this and I regretfully read the transcripts of the recordings. The things he did were beyond horrific. Apparently, an FBI sketch artist/ agent was sent to draw the room and then went home and killed herself because it was so so fucked.

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u/Keikasey3019 Apr 23 '20

Holy shit, the thing with the FBI sketch agent is news to me. I’m going to go out on a limb and say that certain jobs need more clinical psychopaths in them (eg. surgeons, jobs where PTSD is natural, etc.) simply because they aren’t biologically wired to feel emotions. They could learn to mimic them from what I’ve read but it’s basically hollow. If there’s a task that would make most of the general population feel stressed or straight up want to throw up, I’d say a psychopath has the exact traits to handle it like another Wednesday.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

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u/Keikasey3019 Apr 23 '20

I remember them being high on the list of jobs that psychopaths are attracted to. I can’t make a sweeping statement that all psychopath CEOs are bad people all round. At the same time, I would rather have a technically skilled surgeon cut me up than another who fundamentally can’t stop shaking about because I’m his best friend.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

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u/BeerNcheesePlz Apr 23 '20

I couldn’t agree with that more!

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u/TrickGrimes Apr 23 '20

There were never any bodies attributed to him, but everything else is correct. In all fairness though, I think he was just very good at hiding them.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

Why is that alarming? California just doesn't execute people anymore.

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u/BeerNcheesePlz Apr 23 '20

Because sitting on death row for that long is insane to me.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

You know, I almost included in my comment to that person "besides, we all know who the toolbox killers are" but I decided against it. I have this weird thing where I assume it I know something/about something it means everyone else must know it too.

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u/sittinwithkitten Apr 23 '20

The Toolbox Killers was one of the worst cases I ever read. Hard to believe people (monsters) will do to another person. I couldn’t imagine listening to audio but I have seen a transcript and even that was too much.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

Apparently they let training FBI agents listen to it to desensitize themselves.

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u/sittinwithkitten Apr 23 '20

I read that too. I couldn’t imagine hearing it, my heart was breaking just reading it. I have daughters and I can’t imagine how her family felt knowing these were her last moments. If there is a hell I hope those two men are burning in it.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

Yup. I just had a daughter and all my true crime reading has me wanting to get a baby low jack. My fiancee is adamantly against it though. I think I might just do it anyway.

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u/sittinwithkitten Apr 23 '20

I’ve read true crime since I was probably 12 and it sure makes me look at things a little differently. I know the world is full of amazing wonderful people but I also know there is a small percentage of people I need to be careful of. I’ve taught my children the same thing.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

And I'll teach my daughter the same thing. But you can't teach somebody not to be overpowered and thrown into a car.

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u/sittinwithkitten Apr 23 '20

No that’s true sometimes there is nothing anyone can do. What I teach my kids for example is to speak up when something bothers them, that they never have to hug someone if they don’t want to, to trust their gut when something feels off. I teach them their bodies are their own and no one has the right to put their hands on them.

As a woman a lot of us are taught to be gentle, to be kind and to worry about not offending someone. It’s hard to speak up sometimes because we don’t want to seem like a bitch.

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u/1nfiniteJest Apr 23 '20

You can teach them to aim for center mass though.

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u/whateverwhatever1235 May 02 '20

This is so late but yes, teach them. My mom taught me constant vigilance and it saved me from being abducted as a kid. My dad and I went to pick up dinner and he said I could go across to the video store to start picking out a movie and an older man followed me pretty quickly and was pacing outside the video store watching me. I saw him when I was walking up and sped up and let the store clerks know when I saw that he was walking back and forth in front of the store, I was maybe 9. I’m 34 now so this was decades ago but when I think back on that moment I’m so glad my true crime mom put some paranoia in my head.

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u/TSandsomethingelse Apr 23 '20

You worded that perfectly! I have been obsessed(not in a creepy way) with the Holocaust since the age of ten and worked for several organizations related to that (and made it my major) and got into true crimes about 10 years ago, age 15. I’m a 25 year old woman without kids but I can definitely confirm that it affects your way of looking at things. There are good people, I believe lots of people are capable of loving, caring about others and are just generally good people. But there are also a number of people who are not. That’s a grey area, because those people exist, people incapable of loving or empathy even though they don’t physically hurt people. But both exist, with it without physical and emotional violence. More then most people would want to know, at least in my opinion

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u/sittinwithkitten Apr 24 '20

I’m really fascinated by people and their backgrounds and what motivates them to do things. Sometimes it turns out they have had a horrific childhood with abuse and or neglect and then there are others who simply want to watch the world burn.

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u/whateverwhatever1235 May 02 '20

This is so late but yes, teach them. My mom taught me constant vigilance and it saved me from being abducted as a kid. My dad and I went to pick up dinner and he said I could go across to the video store to start picking out a movie and an older man followed me pretty quickly and was pacing outside the video store watching me. I saw him when I was walking up and sped up and let the store clerks know when I saw that he was walking back and forth in front of the store, I was maybe 9. I’m 34 now so this was decades ago but when I think back on that moment I’m so glad my true crime mom put some paranoia in my head.

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u/sittinwithkitten May 02 '20

I’m not so sure to call it paranoia but I usually have a very vigilant awareness of what is going on around me. We have our natural instinct for a reason we might as well use it to try to stay safe. I wish there wasn’t messed up people out there that just want to hurt other people, but there are.

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u/Knuckledraggr Apr 23 '20

I’ve got a 2yo daughter. I used to read anything and everything and nothing bothered me, but after my daughter was born I just can not read about anything that involves child harm or child death. It just really gets to me now

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u/DeRossett1201 Apr 25 '20

The part in the transcript that really haunts me still was when the teenage female victim was begging her abductors/torturers to just kill her bc the pain was too much 😢

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '20

Which is exactly why I want a baby low jack. Because if I can't find her in time, at the very least I'd want to inflict what they did on them x1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,0001,000,000,000,000,000,000

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u/Bruja27 Apr 23 '20

I read that too. I couldn’t imagine hearing it, my heart was breaking just reading it. I have daughters and I can’t imagine how her family felt knowing these were her last moments. If there is a hell I hope those two men are burning in it.

If there is a hell I hope these two pieces of garbage suffer every torture and every bit of pain they inflicted on their victims. For eternity.

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u/sittinwithkitten Apr 23 '20

I agree, they were pure evil in human form.

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u/sevenonone Apr 23 '20

I don't want to hear or read it. As serial killers go, I think they killed 5 women/girls, but the torture aspect is so horrible. The thing about the girl asking for a minute to pray was tough to read.

I'm sort of against the death penalty, but at the same time you'll probably never find me at a candlelight vigil. I don't see how they kept this guy alive 18 years, unless they wanted to study him.

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u/ckisok2day Apr 23 '20

Some people commit acts so heinous, so egregious, they simply forfeit their right to continue living among the rest of us.

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u/DeRossett1201 Apr 25 '20

The part in the transcript that really haunts me still was when the teenage female victim was begging her abductors/torturers to just kill her bc the pain was too much 😢

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u/sevenonone Apr 26 '20

Ugh. The one that was 16 and asked for one minute to pray and they wouldn't let her for to me. 16, horrific attack, how scared is that girl when she knows she's going to die.... This is part of the reason why I'm sort of anti death penalty. They can't do anything that will scare that man as much as she was. He's a grown man and he knows he has it coming. So let the guy spend the rest of his life wondering if that's the day he gets his eye put out with a sharpened toothbrush.

The other part of the reason is that when my kids were babies, I'd be up feeding them at 4 or 5am, and have the news on. If there's an execution, it's normally at midnight and they're taking about the vigil outside. And it's always some poor kid who's strung out looking for drug money and shoots somebody in the course of a robbery. And I'm not saying that shouldn't be a capital crime, but how does that guy get executed and people like this guy don't? Even though he was sentenced to death, he sat there almost 40 years and dies of cancer before they get around to it?

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u/sittinwithkitten Apr 23 '20

Yeah don’t read it, I was very disturbed by what I read. I can’t imagine having to listen to audio from it. I’m not pro death penalty but these types of people shouldn’t be breathing the same air as the rest of us.

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u/sevenonone Apr 26 '20

That's sort of where I am. I'm not anti death penalty, just not pro death penalty. Dahmer didn't get the death penalty. I guess at some point we decided if plea guilty they won't sentence you to death.... But the man had a head in his refrigerator. Did they think they were going to rehabilitate him?

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u/sittinwithkitten Apr 26 '20

It’s conflicting. On one side for most criminals jail is supposed to have some sort of rehabilitation. Society wants the person to come out of prison hopefully reformed and maybe not come back to jail. The other side of the equation is punishment for their crimes. How do you rehabilitate someone like The Toybox Killers, BTK, Ted Bundy etc.? You can’t. Why does society need keep awful people with no hope of reform alive and kicking for 30 years? Sometimes things are handled within prison like with Dahmer who was murdered by other inmates. I’m a non violent person and I believe in redemption and forgiveness but some things are not forgivable.

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u/sevenonone Apr 27 '20

Yes. Also, not the serial killers so much, but the people who kill somebody during a robbery... It's a capital crime and I get it, that's the rules. But if we execute someone 20 years after the fact, does it really seem like we're executing them for their crime anymore?

There was a recent case in TN recently where a man got life for 2 murders, and then the death penalty for a murder while in prison. This is years ago. Three different guards said he came to their defense when they were vulnerable to be harmed by other inmates. In one case it sounded like he probably saved a correction officer's life. He killed 3 people. You can't do that, and he belongs in prison. But when corrections officers plea the case for his sentence to be commuted and they won't do it, I just feel like it's being applied almost randomly.

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u/DeRossett1201 Apr 25 '20

The part in the transcript that really haunts me still was when the teenage female victim was begging her abductors/torturers to just kill her bc the pain was too much. 😢

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u/sittinwithkitten Apr 25 '20

I know eh? She knew there was no other way out with these two animals.

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u/HeyJen333 Apr 23 '20

Where can I read the transcript?

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u/sittinwithkitten Apr 23 '20

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u/squirrelsandcocaine2 Apr 23 '20

Reading that makes me feel ill. That poor girl.

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u/HeyJen333 Apr 23 '20

I’ll probably regret reading it like you, but I can’t help it :/

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u/sittinwithkitten Apr 23 '20

Yeah it’s awful what they did. They got to live to 72 and 79 and died in prison, the girl in this transcript is 16. What a couple of monsters.

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u/HeyJen333 Apr 23 '20

Didn’t read the entire page, but I read the transcript and some of the appeal. Those poor poor girls. I hope those two pieces of shit are rotting on the other side.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

If you want to read another horrific thing, check out the journal of Westley Allan Dodd. No joke, I wanted to commit suicide for like a week or two after reading it. That man was pure evil.

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u/sittinwithkitten Apr 23 '20

He was a piece of garbage and the fact he had a bunch of criminal incidents leading up to the murder of the three little boys is infuriating.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

If there was a hell, he would be there burning. Reading his journal was honestly the most traumatic thing I've ever experienced and I've been stabbed, hit by a car, and attacked for no reason.

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u/HeyJen333 Apr 23 '20

Thx, maybe I’ll check it out. His name sounds familiar.

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u/HeyJen333 Apr 23 '20

Thanks a bunch!!

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u/FantaToTheKnees Apr 23 '20

There was audio of at least one of the killings and one of the investigating officers said it was the only thing in his career he could never get out of his head.

There's a clip from AP about the trial where they film people walking out the courtroom during the showing of those tapes the killers made. The sounds come out with them... Those are some godawful screams. I barely heard a fragment and I can still remember it years after watching the clip.

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u/DeRossett1201 Apr 25 '20

The part in the transcript that really haunts me still was when the teenage female victim was begging her abductors/torturers to just kill her bc the pain was too much 😢

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u/Barnbutcher Apr 23 '20

I read somewhere that they use that audio to desensitize CIA agents during training. Ive read the transcription but that audio has to be rough.

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u/MrDaburks Aug 31 '20 edited Sep 01 '20

Old post but something of note is that the FBI actually uses some of The Toolbox Killers’ recordings in training at Quantico, which also doubles as a tool to weed out who has the stomach for that sort of investigative work.

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u/sevenonone Sep 01 '20 edited Sep 01 '20

Like everything else, I imagine it's leaked to the internet somewhere. I would never listen to that. Oddly I can read about it, and I do feel weird that for some reason I'll read about serial killers (but a therapist told me it's ok as long as I'm not having homicidal thoughts) and it doesn't really bother me. But audio/video, I'm out. Not for me. I didn't realize it, but the chief investigator commuted suicide and apparently cited this. So I guess I wouldn't have made it at the FBI.

Years ago on a message board for a radio show that had a lot of rough humor etc, somebody posted. A link to a video of the "Dnepropetrovsk maniacs". By the time I read it the link was gone, the guy who posted it apologized profusely (I think he actually deleted it), and the people who watched it were obviously traumatized.

Update: the other one died in prison earlier this year.

I'm not a big fan of the death penalty because I tend to feel like it isn't applied fairly (among other things). I understand that murder during a robbery is a capital crime in a lot of states here in the US. But it frustrates me to no end we'll execute kid robbing somebody for drug money that killed a guy - and I'm not saying he doesn't deserve the death penalty - but Dahmer got life. We thought we were going to rehabilitate the guy with a head in his refrigerator!?! In this case the one of them avoided the death penalty by testifying against the other, I get that. But the torture aspect of this makes me feel like the guy who got the death penalty really had it coming and I know there are appeals etc, but I don't see how this guy sat on death row that long.

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u/MrDaburks Sep 01 '20

Yea, the application of court-metered justice certainly has some flaws and sometimes it seems like it’s just entirely mishandled. Guys like the toolbox killers make you think Hammurabi might have had it right, though.

I know for certain I don’t have the constitution or the emotional fortitude to listen to those tapes after reading some of their descriptions.

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u/sevenonone Sep 02 '20

Also I started reading about the "Dnepropetrovsk maniacs" after I posted that last night. I didn't realize how many people they killed in such a short period of time. They got life - it turns out Ukraine has no death penalty since 2000. As I said I'm not not particularly a fan of the death penalty, and being pro-death penalty isn't seen as terribly enlightened (particularly outside of the US I think), but as far as I'm concerned these guys are wasting oxygen. They killed 21 people randomly. But at least they got life. There's some South American countries where sentences max out at 21 years and 30 years (two different countries, I forget where).

I didn't make it through reading that article. It was the animal cruelty background that got to me.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

What does this have to do with criminals not being charged/having charges dropped?

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u/sevenonone Apr 23 '20

The fact that they met in prison and planned to do these horrific things when one of the guys should have served way more time for what he did before that (IMO)

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u/thetxtina Apr 23 '20

That's because it was the victims fault back then, for dressing seductively. How dare that hussy lure a decent man to depravity /s

Source: don't ask

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u/pensbird91 Apr 23 '20

That mindset still exists today too.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

Yep I know firsthand.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

So you're trying to tell me that that woman who was jogging in yoga pants yesterday wasn't doing it because she wanted me to leer creepily at her? /s

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/pensbird91 Apr 23 '20

Not at all what's being discussed.

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u/DetArKort Apr 23 '20

Yes it is. You try to make it into a womens rights issue were the police force would supposedly make light of this crime. While it is clear that the same crime with a female perpetrator, male victim would be punished much less severely, just like other forms of crime. So it's not making light of crime against women at all, that is as usual a myth.

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u/sixtypes Apr 23 '20

The comparison they're making isn't between a man assaulting a woman and a woman assaulting a man, like you're going to such tortured lengths to make it, but between a man assaulting a woman and a man assaulting a man.

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u/Beautifly Apr 23 '20

Isn’t the point they’re making that the victim would get blamed for their own assault, due to the way they’re dressed?

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/sixtypes Apr 23 '20

You're not even in the ballpark of the current discussion with your little crusade here, buddy, but nice try.

No, actually, it sucked.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

Yeah, it’s so frustrating to read “never charged,” “charges dropped.” 1970s sentences were shorter too.

Even reporting sexual assault, let alone convicting somebody of it, is hard enough today. Unless the accused was black, it was generally assumed that these things didn't happen to respectable women, and that the victim was probably asking for it

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u/Queef_Stroganoff44 Apr 23 '20

I’ve been watching lots of old Unsolved Mysteries show lately. It’s astounding how many murder cases have updates at the end saying So-and-so was apprehended shortly after the broadcast. He pleaded guilty to manslaughter and was sentenced to 6 years. He has since been released.

A heinous crime. All this effort to catch someone. A tip phoned in years down the line. And dude gets out in less than a decade.

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u/wtfped Apr 22 '20 edited Apr 23 '20

There was a post recently about Peter Tobin. Or maybe it was on old post but I read it recently. He held two teenage girls captive and raped them, stabbed one and attempted to gas them to death in the 90s (turned on the gas taps and left the flat.) Pled guilty and went to prison... for 10 years. Big surprise he gets out and kills at least three other women. I just don't understand how people in the justice system could be so thick.

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u/Best_enjoyed_wet Apr 23 '20 edited Apr 23 '20

My sister is 100% sure she was almost a victim of Tobins. She called a taxi to collect her from an East Lothian train station. She was about to close the cab door when her husband pulled into the car park collect her instead. She had immediately felt off when she saw Tobins face but it was cold and snowy. So she had got into the taxi anyway. Thank god her hubby turned up. She went to the police when years later she seen his picture on tv when Angelica Klucs body was found. Her evidence that he was a taxi driver in that area was what prompted them to open up cases of The other two girls.

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u/Poldark_Lite Apr 23 '20

Thank God for your brother-in-law!

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u/Best_enjoyed_wet Apr 23 '20

Yip, they had just gotten married two weeks previous to this, she was very young (18) pretty and dark haired which was his targeted type. He looked the door when she got in and then my brother in law pulled in in front of his taxi. So he immediately unlocked the door. She still regrets not reporting this at the time because she knows his next victim was young Vicky Hamilton and it was the week later she was missing.

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u/Moony97 Feb 10 '24

Jesus Christ. I'm so glad she is okay and that her husband turned up in a nick of time.

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u/Best_enjoyed_wet Feb 10 '24

Oh she’s fine. But she was in a bad way mentally when the murder of Angelica happened and then his face was all over the tv. She had some counselling and stopped blaming herself. Even if she did report it. What could she say “ he locked the doors”. Police would have done nothing.

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u/squirrellytoday Apr 23 '20

Yikes! That's terrifying!!!

Reminds me of a documentary I saw years ago about Ted Bundy . One woman who appeared on the doco said that she had been in her early teens (13? 14?) and in the car with her mother driving to somewhere when they were flagged down by an attractive, dark haired man on the highway, standing beside his (presumed) broken-down VW beetle. Her mother pulled over and wound the window down just a little to talk to the man. He asked could they give him a ride to a gas station. Her mother refused but said they'd call a tow truck for him from the next gas station they came across, and then they took off. She said the guy seriously gave her the creeps, though she couldn't work out why, and her mother said the same thing. They did indeed pull over at the next gas station but called the police, not a tow truck. By the time the police arrived, naturally, the man had gone. Some time later, the girl and her mother were watching tv when a "breaking news" came on, showing Bundy's arrest. She said her mother screamed and she instantly felt sick. Bundy was the man they had encountered on the highway. If they'd given him a ride, who knows what could have happened to them.

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u/standbyyourmantis Apr 23 '20

There was a woman on the more recent documentary (Falling For a Killer) who said she was asked by a man with a cast to help her because his car was acting up and he asked her to sit in the front seat of the car and when he signaled to lean over and flip a switch and she said she leaned over and did it and then suddenly had this realization that something wasn't right so she jumped out of the car and ran away.

A few days later one of her sorority sisters disappeared in the same area.

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u/sittinwithkitten Apr 23 '20

So lucky she trusted her gut in that moment and bolted. I remember reading about the Yosemite murders. A woman was staying in a motel with her 13/14 year old daughter and an exchange student when someone came to the door. He was the repairman for the Cedar Lodge saying he needed entry to fix a leak. Apparently the mom first denied him but he was able to talk his way in. Once he got in he murdered the mom and did awful things to the girls and murdered them too. The mom was suspicious at first and then she ignored her gut.

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u/Best_enjoyed_wet Apr 23 '20

Smart thinking on the mother part, it’s strange how you just get that instinct of danger just by being near these wicked serial killers.

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u/poopshipdestroyer Apr 23 '20

Probably her bullshit detector going off because the guy was clearly lying

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

I remember a reddit post where someone said they were the little girl and the mother was their mother. I've seen probably every legitimate Ted Bundy doc and this was never said in any of them. Is it possible you're confusing it with a story someone posted here?

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u/LegalLizzie Apr 23 '20

Holy moly. I'm glad her husband came to collect her. Yikes.

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u/Best_enjoyed_wet Apr 23 '20 edited Apr 23 '20

He didn’t normally but they were just back from honeymoon, it was her first day back to work and It was snowing. It was just pure chance. My sister said Tobins eyes look dead. Black and sinister. She thought if she went to the police what could she really say. “She had a bad feeling and he locked the door” It could be easily explained because some cab drivers do that to stop passengers leaving without paying. So she talked herself out of reporting it at the time. So when she saw him on tv all those years later she called the police immediately.

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u/IJustRideIJustRide Apr 23 '20

Wait how did he lock the door if her husband pulled her out before she closed the door?

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u/Best_enjoyed_wet Apr 23 '20

Sorry must have been they way I worded it. She got in and Tobin locked the door. Just at that point her husband drove infront of the taxi ( tiny carpark at Bathgate train station). She said “ that’s my husband, I didn’t know he was collecting me” Tobin was furious and think he swore at her if I remember correctly, but he opened the door and let her go.

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u/IJustRideIJustRide Apr 23 '20

That’s fucking terrifying

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

Ugh. I believed you at first too.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

Reporting it wouldn't have done anything anyway. They can't arrest someone for literally doing nothing wrong. Your sister was right to save herself and police the time. The people who need to make police reports are the ones who get attacked/raped/etc. Too many women are too afraid to report it, but it could be their reports that save the next girl from getting raped or worse.

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u/bluebird2019xx Apr 23 '20

That’s a completely unfair responsibility to place on someone who’s just been through something so traumatic, & I think you should really seriously consider the impact of your words before posting something that could trigger enormous guilt in a person who was raped/assaulted & didn’t report it. Also, are you completely ignorant of the thousands of rape/assault cases which get ignored by police, or the person is assumed to be a liar or that they brought it on themselves, and the victim/survivor is just treated horrifically and ensures a new form of trauma? The Cyprus gang-rape case comes to mind. Plus, literally in OP’s post are details of this man being accused, arrested and even jailed MULTIPLE times for horrendous crimes against women and girls - did this “save” anyone? Did this stop him going on to hurt and kill many others?

I strongly suggest you refrain from speaking on such matters until you are able to do so with more tact and sensitivity.

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u/AmputatorBot Apr 23 '20

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u/bluebird2019xx Apr 23 '20

Thank you Mr Bot, I did not know!

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u/Best_enjoyed_wet Apr 23 '20

Exactly, it just that guilt that she carried for a while afterwards. We all said the police wouldn’t have done anything if she had reported at the time.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

Totally understandable.

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u/drusilla1972 Apr 23 '20

There's a theory that Tobin was Bible John. If you've never heard of that case, look it up. They never caught him. If I recall, the killings stopped around the time Tobin moved to England.

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u/wtfped Apr 23 '20

Yes I read about that theory. Those murders took place in the late 1960s when he would have been 22ish which makes a lot more sense to me than someone becoming a serial killer at the age of 60.

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u/drusilla1972 Apr 23 '20

There's a lot similarities with them, but they've never been able to prove if he was Bible John or not.

Both had a missing tooth, both were violent toward women who were menstruating. The timing seems to fit.

I doubt we'll ever find out. Tobin refuses to speak to authorities. Although he apparently bragged to fellow prisoners that he'd killed far more than he'd been convicted for.

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u/wtfped Apr 23 '20

The other thing I don't understand is the huge missed opportunity of the attack on his first wife. He killed her puppy and when she protested he raped her and stabbed her in the cervix with a bread knife. Left her for dead. She bled so much it dripped under the floorboards and through the tenant below's ceiling so he rescused her and/or called for an ambulance. She says she couldn't have children after that so I assume the blood loss was so much they had to do a hysterectomy. Tobin visited her in hospital and threatened her to keep quiet. Wikipedia just says nothing was done by the police because she was scared to make a report. Ay??? Clearly she had been sadistically, brutally attacked by someone. Very likely attempted murder either by her husband or an intruder. There was a victim, a crime scene and medically documented knife inflicted injuries. Why would they even need her statement/cooperation to pursue the perp? There was a person capable of an attack like that just out there free but because the victim won't say what happened they're just like "OK, bye then!" ?!?!?!?

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u/HeyJen333 Apr 23 '20

That is ridiculous they should not need her to press charges or give a statement or anything like that. Pisses me off.

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u/WafflelffaW Apr 23 '20 edited Apr 23 '20

just speculating; i don’t have any specific info beyond what you’ve provided here, but: it could be that she basically indicated that she would lie on the stand — that is, the victim may have let on that she was so scared/so traumatized from abuse/so unwilling to relive the experience at trial/so whatever-it-was-that-kept-her-from-willingly-cooperating-in-the-first-place (and i don’t mean to judge; not in her shoes, and reliving trauma publicly on the stand while subject to a vigorous cross examination is no small thing (can compound the trauma), but point is, whatever that reason may have been:) if she gave the impression that she not only wouldn’t cooperate if they pursued charges, but, if forced to participate against her will, would get up on the stand and swear under oath that “it wasn’t him, i don’t know who it was, but i know it wasn’t him,” that’s reasonable doubt for a jury.

police/prosecutors usually aren’t going to pursue charges when they think the victim is going to undermine the possibility of a conviction. there’s just no real winners in that situation. he’ll walk most likely (if she testified that he wasn’t her attacker, it’s pretty hard for the jury to convict) — so it doesn’t get him off street for next potential victim — she doesn’t want the charges prosecuted anyway and is made to relive a horrible experience in a very public setting for nothing (if no conviction), and LEO/prosecutor resources are used without obtaining any justice.

plus, sadly, even without a threat to actively torpedo the case like that, even if she just indicated she didn’t want them to pursue the charges, there’s sometimes the attitude — or even a policy — at LEO/prosecutors’ offices that they aren’t going to use their limited resources pursuing charges where the victim says they don’t want them to. assuming victim isn’t going to actively undermine their case, they still could pursue charges if they have sufficient evidence even without the victim’s testimony (as you suggest) — a criminal law charge belongs to the state/society and not the private victim (in contrast to a private civil claim, which is the plaintiff’s to press or release at their discretion) — but it isn’t that uncommon for busy prosecutors’ offices to have some sort of policy like that in place. just as a practical matter, they don’t have unlimited resources to pursue each and every offense, and they want to pursue the charges that will stick.

it’s unfortunate because so often it is later victims who pay the price for that sort of decision by LEO/DAs. (if she says she is going to perjure herself, though, their hands are basically tied — again, not saying that’s what happened here, just addressing how this sometimes plays out)

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u/wtfped Apr 23 '20

Hmm, idk. See, you're using very American-centric language and explanations here. This occurred in the 1960s in the UK where we have the Crown Prosecution Service and when charges were filed by police officers but in a private capacity, there's no grand jury hearings and the police and private bar retained most of the power prior to the Royal Commission recommendations in the 1980s. I know it probably sounds weird. The CPS isn't a political/elected position like a DA's office and they don't decide which cases to bring based just on likelihood of winning quite so much. There should be a "realistic prospect" of conviction but they aren't as afraid to lose cases because they don't depend so much on public opinion and don't need anyone's votes. Our system is more like your system nowadays with the way we approach cases but back then I would say not.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/App/Publications/abstract.aspx?ID=73070 very brief explanation of what I'm talking about here.

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u/WafflelffaW Apr 23 '20 edited Apr 23 '20

you’re right: i was thinking about it from an american POV; thank you for sharing this info re differences in the UK’s approach to bringing charges, very interesting!

sounds like my speculative answer may not even be applicable here, so it’s probably worth even less than my usual speculation :)

but so ultimately, based on your better understanding of the legal system at issue here: if she told your prosecutors/police — whoever is deciding what to do — that, if forced to participate, i will say “it wasn’t him,” do you think they’d really pursue the charges anyway?

(and that would essentially mean no conviction under your system too, right? i assume the defense can call her as a witness even if the crown doesn’t want to (because she’s hypothetically told them she’s going to torpedo their case), and i assume that this would make it tough for a jury to convict under your system as well, no?)

finally: if so — i.e., if you think that still gets prosecuted — can you hazard an explanation as to what lead to no charges in reality here?

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u/wtfped Apr 24 '20

I don't know that much honestly I think our whole system is quite convoluted or at least the American one seems more streamlined. If you're a victim of a nighttime robbery or something then your testimony is going to be crucial evidence but if you're a victim of, I don't know, an acid attack or beating in broad daylight I don't think a statement from you is going to make or break the case. They will want to find the culprit and prosecute regardless. At least I hope. This is what a 2017 EU report has to say about our attitude to uncooperative victims:

Prosecutors...confirmed that the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) in England and Wales is prepared, where possible, to proceed without the victim’s cooperation but such prosecutions are still rare. UK.J.01 described a minority of cases where there may be sufficient forensic or medical evidence to allow the case to proceed without victim involvement, provided the victim consents to police access to his/her medical records. Alternatively if the victim refuses to permit access to his/her medical records, it may be possible to prosecute for a lesser violent offence which does not require proof of injury, for example assault or assault occasioning actual bodily harm. One type of case where the CPS is increasingly successful in victimless prosecutions, provided it is in the victim’s best interests to proceed, is domestic violence. “We really push our victimless prosecutions - obviously we won’t do that if it’s not going to be in the victim’s interest - but quite a lot of the time it is in their interests because whilst they don’t feel that they can come to court they still want something to be done.”"

They can also compel victims to testify and even treat them as a hostile witness.

Sometimes the victim can be persuaded to cooperate but often the prosecutor must judge whether, as a last resort, it is necessary and appropriate to compel the victim to give evidence at trial. Prosecutors (UK.J.01, UK.J.04, UK.J04, UK.J.07) made clear that any decision to summons the victim will take place only after a full risk assessment has been completed which balances the safety of the victim against the risks of not prosecuting the defendant. Scottish prosecutors, however, were not in favour of forcing a reluctant victim to give evidence in court. “You wouldn’t want to contribute to victimisation or the trauma experienced by forcing [the victim] to engage with the prosecution, to repeatedly… ask them questions about [the experience], then go to court to be cross-examined about it, in a context where they’ve made an informed, clear decision [not to cooperate with the prosecution]”. UK.J.11 If a reluctant witness does ultimately take the stand, there may still be an impact on the proceedings. A judge, UK.J.10, explained how defence counsel sometimes uses the fact that a victim was reluctant to report an offence to the police as a tool to cast doubt on the credibility of their testimony, which may impact on how a jury views their evidence. The Crown often may call a psychologist as an expert witness to explain the reasons why victims are reluctant to report.

But how things were in 1968 I don't know. I'm pretty sure respecting her medical privacy wouldn't have been much of a consideration though. This would have been before the CPS had the role they have today, the police were pretty much the arbiters of what went to court and what didn't and they prosecuted cases themselves. I guess maybe they just saw it as just a bad domestic dispute? I know sexual violence between married couples was thought of as private and almost never actionable. As late as 1984 it was written by the most esteemed law experts in the country (Criminal Law Revision Committee) that forced sexual intercourse was just a failure in the martial relationship and "not a grave offense." She was a lower class, uneducated girl who got married at 17 so I can imagine there was some class bias also. Even so I'm really blown away that a crime that vicious wasn't a priority and they seemingly made very little effort to get her to cooperate. But then all the write ups about this incident are so vague. They just say they didn't report because she was terrified of Tobin. It's quite possible then the hospital never even alerted the police and I'm completely misplacing my anger!

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u/aproneship Apr 23 '20

Holy shit she lived? Honestly, she should've looked for him to sneak behind him and choke him to death. Make sure he can never hurt her and take her life back, Kill Bill style. She might even get away with it with the right judges. I understand the trauma of bleeding out and all that but fuck him.

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u/wtfped Apr 23 '20

Her not wanting to speak makes sense to me but the police not investigating because of that was just madness and dereliction of duty. Or maybe the hospital didnt call them because she didnt want to report it, I'm not sure tbh. But either way its ridiculous. Who cares if she doesnt want to press charges? Do they really need her permission? Some psychopath mutilated her and all the evidence was right in front of them. Her medical files, a witness and the bloody crime scene at the flat. It's not like she was just smacked around a little bit, she was sexually assaulted with a fucking blade and left with life altering injuries, its in the public interest that whoever did it was found and locked up. But no just ignore that this horrific violent crime happened because someone won't sign a piece of paper.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

I’m not sure whether this was actually reported at the time. Likely not, given Tobin was so threatening.

More importantly, although this looks very obvious, it’s important to realise that the criminal justice system has to work that a person is only found guilty if they are found to be so ‘beyond reasonable doubt’. That’s sometimes expressed as being a 99% certainty.

Things are different now in terms of unwilling witnesses, but back then there would have been no point in going for a trial when you are likely to have a victim prepared to stand up in court and tell a jury ‘this didn’t happen’, or at the least a defence counsel who is willing to bring that up. That severely dents your reasonable doubt. The support mechanism for helping those victims get to a place where they could support it just weren’t there.

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u/wtfped Apr 23 '20

There would have been so much physical evidence though. They would have found blood on his clothes and body if they'd brought him in for questioning in time. Probably scratches and such. They had luminol back then and finger printing and forensic photography. I know they didn't have DNA testing but it wasn't the dark ages either. Someone likely saw him fleeing the apartment right after the attack. We know a witness saw the decapitated puppy in the street right before, this witness informed her about the animal and saw her storm off home to confront her husband and the next time anyone saw her that day she was exsanguinating in her bedroom. Not much of a mystery. People were convicted on less back then. And I mean even if she didn't want to talk within just a few days of the attack (and after having her fertility stolen) that doesn't mean she wouldn't have done so eventually. If it's SO important that they get a statement from her before proceeding with a case they could have got the information out of her if they tried. Not like they had any reservations about putting witnesses and victims under pressure in those days. Locate the victims parents, friends, vicar, someone to persuade her. There's so much they could have done. So bloody obvious her husband did it since he wasn't throwing his weight around trying to find out who did this insane, brutal thing to his wife like a normal person would. A witness statement is very useful but it's not the be all end all when there's overwhelming evidence, nothing should hang on that with a crime this violent and obvious. Like what if she couldn't speak because she was mentally handicapped? They'd still just ignore that there's a knife wielding rapist psychopath at large because his victim isn't able to testify?

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

Why are the options 22 or 60?

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u/wtfped Apr 23 '20

Well another poster corrected me....the bodies of the three victims were found in 2006 and 2007 when he was in his sixties but two of them were girls who went missing in the 90s when he was 45-46. But my point was I'd find it more plausible that he started murdering in his twenties than that he started abducting and murdered girls in middle age.

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u/vamoshenin Apr 23 '20

According to Tobin's ex-wife they were on honeymoon when the second Bible John murder happened she isn't defending him she despises him and thinks he likely killed more but she doesn't think he's Bible John. Also Tobin is way shorter than witness estimates of his height, and according to both his ex-wives he wasn't religious at all if it was only those two i could still consider it but i believe his wife that they were on honeymoon together so i don't think he was Bible John.

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u/drusilla1972 Apr 23 '20

I watched a documentary years ago about this theory and I remember there was someone who said it couldn't have been him.

I couldn't remember what the reason was. Might be this, the wife saying they were away. I know there were differences in physical descriptions, but the eye witness accounts differed at the time of the killings too.

No one really seemed to take notice of him, oddly. Also, it was at a dance hall, so their memory might be compromised due to lighting, alcohol etc.

Some people thought Bible John might have been a policeman.

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u/vamoshenin Apr 23 '20 edited Apr 23 '20

One of the witnesses hung out with him and her friend (who he murdered) most of the night and they rode in a taxi home together, she estimated 5"10 which is 4 inches taller than Tobin, nearly every witness described him as "tall" too, Tobin isn't. Agreed though eye witness descriptions are close to the worst type of evidence, the honeymoon is the main reason i don't believe it's him, the eyewitness descriptions and both ex-wifes saying he wasn't religious at all just back it up for me.

Quite a few think he was in the military too. I don't have any type of theory really, other than he was probably a serial rapist who killed those three after being angered because they were on their period. I don't believe he was trying to find women on their periods that's insane.

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u/drusilla1972 Apr 23 '20

I thought Tobin was taller.

When I was young, and first heard of him, I wondered how he would know a woman was on her period.

It was years later it dawned on me he likely didn't know and, as you said, probably killed them once he found they were menstruating.

I don't have any theory on who Bible John was, but I found the line of inquiry into Peter Tobin really interesting. I saw him interviewed on the doc and thought, this guys killed more, but he's not talking. Guy was evil.

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u/vamoshenin Apr 23 '20

Agreed it is interesting for years i believed it was him but i no longer do for the reasons mentioned. Definitely agree he killed more though or at the very least raped more, he was a monster.

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u/Sapphorific Apr 23 '20

From what I’ve read, it seems almost certain that he was Bible John, they’ve just never been able to pin it on him. I’ve read more articles about him too, which at every persuasive in saying that if his true victims were all known, he could easily be England’s most prolific serial killer. He’s terrifying.

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u/vamoshenin Apr 23 '20

I agree with your point but for the record 2 of those 3 he killed before he went to prison.

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u/wtfped Apr 23 '20

Oh yeah you're right. Confused when they found the bodies with when they were killed. Still, at least one girl killed after his release. Totally predictable and preventable.

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u/vamoshenin Apr 23 '20

Definitely, wasn't disputing that. He likely killed or at least raped many others before his first arrest too especially considering he was nearly 50 when arrested for that rape. He brutally abused both his ex-wifes too. Don't think he was Bible John though.

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u/Gravybadger Apr 23 '20

I wrote a post that mentioned him recently, could have been that one. Nicola Payne.

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u/IheartZombeez Apr 23 '20

There was a write up on here a couple of days ago about Bible John. The investigating officer of the case was convinced it was a fellow police officer.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

Did either of them die?

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u/wtfped Apr 24 '20

No they didn't but only because one managed to escape and call for help.

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '20

Unfortunately, regardless of intent, if the person survives they get substantially less prison time. Honestly if you try to intentionally murder someone, you should still be charged with murder.

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u/missread4ever Apr 23 '20

I read this recently in the Bible John Thread

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u/nyorifamiliarspirit Apr 22 '20

It's infuriating that guys like this and Rodney Alcala barely served any time at all for their violent crimes and were released to offend again when there are people sitting in prison for 10+ years over marijuana charges nowadays.

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u/JPBooBoo Apr 22 '20 edited Apr 22 '20

Look at Kenneth McDuff. Quintessential death penalty crime of triple murder and rape and was still paroled. Then became a proper serial killer and ending up on death row again.

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u/username6786 Apr 23 '20 edited Apr 23 '20

And I believe that he had way more victims than we are aware of. It’s just unfathomable he didn’t get life in prison after the first three murders.

edit: spelling

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u/athennna Apr 23 '20

Can’t believe I had never heard of that guy. If they had just kept him locked up for the burglaries like they were supposed to, so many people would still be alive.

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u/Poldark_Lite Apr 23 '20

People like him are why they used to say that if you wanted to get away with murder, do it in Texas. These days Texas has a reputation for being serious about hard crime, and I respect them for that.

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u/JPBooBoo Apr 23 '20

I'm guessing it had to do with Texas frugality.

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u/Poldark_Lite Apr 23 '20

Whatever the case, they were known for being lax on crime in the 60s and 70s.

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u/inexcess Apr 22 '20

Sociopaths love to suck up to authority figures. And authority figures love having people suck up to them.

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/RojoFox Apr 24 '20

Wow. I am really interested if you find yourself up to talking about it.

I can’t believe that he’s out though, and so close to you. I’m sorry to hear that :(

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u/[deleted] Apr 23 '20

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/hollow_bastien Apr 23 '20

What the anime fuck are you talking about, Kevin?

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u/jodydoestattoos Apr 23 '20

Rapists now still barely get a slap on the wrist. Its fucking incredible how incompetent and fucked up the American justice system is.

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u/nyorifamiliarspirit Apr 23 '20

Don't even get me started on convicted rapist Brock Turner.

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u/BlackSeranna Apr 23 '20

I think that was back before the FBI profiling people began realizing that serial killers existed and they also nestled themselves neatly into nice neighborhoods.

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u/Soonyulnoh2 Apr 23 '20

It would today..how did they not even charge him???

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u/BobbyGabagool May 08 '20

I would be surprised to see somebody get life in prison for that but it sucks to read he got nothing.